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If you're already running a JP master then drop off 10 Hellblasters near him and skip the Primaris master

Bikes are handy but they don't work wonders. Hide them from heavy shooting and don't expect to do much in cc except force a tank to fall back. If you want some added durability to each unit you could always add a HB attack bike to soak up wounds

Edit: typos

Yeah, I just realized it myself and went to come on here and say I was wrong. You can replace the pistol for a storm bolter and get 3 shots or 6 shots at 12", so it still works ok.

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, I just realized it myself and went to come on here and say I was wrong. You can replace the pistol for a storm bolter and get 3 shots or 6 shots at 12", so it still works ok.

I don't really think that's correct. From the dataslate, you may replace the bolt pistol and the boltgun with items from the sergeant equipment list.

Per the sergeant equipment list, there are two subsections on page 75.

Up to two may be chosen from the pistols/melee weapons, and up to one may be chosen from the boltgun/combi weapons list.

Ergo you could replace up to one weapon with the storm bolter but still be left with one weapon from the first list (chainsword, bolt pistol, etc). I think this is both RAW and RAI. Now, if the storm bolter had been included in the first list....

 TedNugent wrote:
Ergo you could replace up to one weapon with the storm bolter but still be left with one weapon from the first list (chainsword, bolt pistol, etc). I think this is both RAW and RAI. Now, if the storm bolter had been included in the first list....

Double-wielding John Woo style!

Your right, I thought it said and / or. Dang it. Just when I thought I had found a use for tacticals. :(

 Aaranis wrote:
What's you guys thoughts on Repulsors ? I'm thinking about including one in the DA battalion accompanying my AdMech. I'm thinking of filling it with Intercessors (I love these guys so far) but wonder if I can't fit in a useful character or two. The Primaris Master looks nice, I'm thinking about giving him the power sword and plasma pistol loadout, or the power fist to have more punch (literally). Maybe fit in a Lieutenant too, with the power sword and plasma pistol too ?

It would help me reduce the number of drops in my list, while providing a way to travel safely for my Intercessors. I don't know how to equip the Repulsor itself though, I'm thinking about keeping it cheap so as to not put all my eggs in one basket.

I really, really want to use one in a list but they are the land raider problem x2. You can easily run up to nearly 300 points kitting one out only to have it shot off the board turn one. It just does waaay too much at once to ever be getting the full use of it's hefty point cost. If you are using it as a transport, than you aren't getting the full value of the Anti-armor weapons. Maneuver to use those and you aren't getting the full value of the anti-infantry weapons. So on and so forth.

If I could fit my plasma ceptors in one I would be so happy.

I can't think of any way to keep them from being shot off the board turn 1 and dropping from deepstrike leaves my most potent high damage shooting potentially off the board for 2 turns.

You could put a dark shroud behind it giving it -1 to hit, that's about the best idea I have to help keep a repulser safe t1.

bananathug wrote:


I can't think of any way to keep them from being shot off the board turn 1 and dropping from deepstrike leaves my most potent high damage shooting potentially off the board for 2 turns.

Put them behind a building

Deploying out of LOS hasn't protect against the biggest marine killers in my Meta (guard, super mobile eldar reapers and now DE).

They just have too big of a target. With their bulky backpacks and height it's hard to keep them on the first floor of a ruin (ITC) so they've been shot through second story windows from ground level troops...

If they aren't screened they get 1st turn charged still (depending on deployment if it can move 12 and still charge it can usually get in and no overwatch because I'm cowering out of LOS), but if I screen then they are too far from the one piece of LOS terrain that can protect such tall/bulky models.

It feels like they were designed with deepstrike as a tool to keep them from getting blown off the table. Without that protection I think I may have to go back to storm cannon leviathan dreads (similar damage output but can actually survive a round or two of getting shot)

Hmm I think either way my opponent will be able to eliminate 300 pts of my army first turn in any case. If he prefers shooting the Repulsor than my Onager Dunecrawler or my Robots he's welcome. There's no shortage of juicy targets in my army anyway. There's no scenery big enough in my LGS to hide a Repulsor behind it unfortunately. And in any case I'd prefer it on the first line to be closer to his passengers' targets. I'll try it out someday before choosing if I buy one or not.

bananathug wrote:
Deploying out of LOS hasn't protect against the biggest marine killers in my Meta (guard, super mobile eldar reapers and now DE).

They just have too big of a target. With their bulky backpacks and height it's hard to keep them on the first floor of a ruin (ITC) so they've been shot through second story windows from ground level troops...

If they aren't screened they get 1st turn charged still (depending on deployment if it can move 12 and still charge it can usually get in and no overwatch because I'm cowering out of LOS), but if I screen then they are too far from the one piece of LOS terrain that can protect such tall/bulky models.

It feels like they were designed with deepstrike as a tool to keep them from getting blown off the table. Without that protection I think I may have to go back to storm cannon leviathan dreads (similar damage output but can actually survive a round or two of getting shot)

If he can ignore LOS, the only thing I can say is park them within an Azrael bubble turn one, keep them in a darkshroud bubble, or cast Aversion on the unit. Perhaps 2 or all three. Aversion requires you to go first if I understand correctly, so you can get your first psychic phase.


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Like other Dark Angels, players, I'm annoyed with the lack of viability of Deathwing. If nothing else because of the lost potential flavor.
I know it's not great, but I think this is the best I could do in making a Deathwing "flavor list."
I'm just not ready to abandon Deathwing. They're cool as gak.
This would also be an easy list to create as it only requires the Dark Vengeance models plus an Assault Terminator kit.
So I've been doing some thought experimenting on what could be done to make a Deathwing list.

Bearing in mind that in spite of their downsides, Terminators did receive an additional wound, guaranteed deep strike distance, a free attack on the sergeant, and double the shots on storm bolters and assault cannons.

I think any Deathwing list is going to be dependent on one warlord trait in particular. Master of Maneuver provides re-rolls to charge and advance rolls within 6" of the warlord. I think this is vital for ensuring a realistic charge from deep strike with even a single unit on average.

Second, two units are particularly interesting to me in the Deathwing arsenal. Belial now gives full rerolls to hit to all deathwing units. The Deathwing Ancient provides +1 attack.

So in my view a possible Deathwing list would include:

Belial

Deathwing Ancient with Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield - Warlord with Master of Maneuver and Shroud of Heroes or Eye of the Unseen relic

At least 2 Deathwing Terminator squads with 4 PFs, 3 SBs, 1 Asscan, and one TH/SS on the sergeant for the 3 attacks

Watcher in the Dark

Per FAQ, a 9 is required on the 2D6 charge roll when arriving from deep strike to achieve a successful charge on turn 2. Mathematically this is approximately a 27.8% chance on a 2D6, or ~47.8% with a reroll from Master of Maneuver. This gives these 4 units just under an average of 2 units successfully charging on turn 2, or at least 1 unit in most cases.

Additionally, upon arrival they would be able to provide 28 bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots. 4 bolter shots would be on BS2 with rerolls. 24 bolter shots would be on BS3 with rerolls. The 12 asscan shots would be on BS4 with rerolls.
Each unit would additionally have rerolls in close combat, hitting on 4's, and an additional attack apiece in CC.
So each fist would have 3 attacks, 4 attacks with the TH/SS each with a 75% hit chance.

These 4 units would deal approximately 7 wounds to MEQs on arrival from shooting on turn 2. On average just under 2 of units would complete the charge on turn 2.
Total cost would weigh in at just over 750 points, leaving room for bare batallion fillers.

So, what do you guys think. Would this be viable as a Deathwing component as part of a supporting greenwing force with an additional HQ to fill a batallion, plus 3 naked troops, and fire support units?

The problem I have with the DS Terminators is that you'll have to shoot at something 12" away to benefit from the double shots, and in most cases it will be the unit you want to charge to move up. Most of the time your opponent will just remove models from the front to make your charge impossible, and you'll be standing there open to enemy fire for the rest of the game. Personally I'm keeping my Terminators shooting only for this reason, and will build a DW Knights bomb if I want to engage, with the build you mentioned. Ancient + Belial/Chaplain are the most important, but we could get cheeky and add an Apothecary. Ideally having Ezekiel run around with them to allow them a free attack before dying and cast Righteous Repugnance on them would be nice. If you can fit Asmodai instead of the Belial/Ancient you'll get one more attack for every unit in range, but it's getting costly. The problem being bringing Ezekiel and Asmodai there in the first place. But if you're playing a defensive type of list and DS the bomb close to your line you could manage to bring both characters where they'd need to be to buff the bomb.

Speaking of cost the aforementioned bomb would cost 957 points though. 10 DW Knights (500), 1 DW Apothecary (77), 1 DW Ancient with Lightning Claws (the cheapest, at 115), Ezekiel (135) and Asmodai (130).

The rest of the army would need to be Scouts to protect your landing zone (you'll need a lot of room), Bikes for the mobility and tarpitting, and some form of anti-horde.

I think death wing really only works now when teamed with raven / green marines. They are most effective once a hole has opened in an enemy's line and you want to capitalize on it. But just death wing at this point seems to be for fun games not serious competitive games.

Paying 750 points for 7 MEQ wounds is absurd. DW can't be taken in high enough numbers to guarantee multiple charges off deepstrike, and are too slow to create a proper threat any other way as they can simply be walked away from. In a pure DW list they also now suffer the problem of needing half the lists' PL deployed on the table, which is significant bc DW are expensive.

There are only really two ways I can see DW being run, both of them with DW as token elements of an otherwise non-DW force. The first is a block of 10 kitted out for shooting to act as area denial. Put scout screens out to make sure they have somewhere to land or use an opening in the enemy lines and then use them to lock down that portion of board. The second is DWK with Ezekiel and Asmodai in a Stormraven, with a JP master and plas Inceptors arriving along side them on turn 2.

Edit: alternatively run a Ven Dread / FW Dread gunline but I don't think that's what you meant by Deathwing

 Brother Payne wrote:
Paying 750 points for 7 MEQ wounds is absurd. DW can't be taken in high enough numbers to guarantee multiple charges off deepstrike, and are too slow to create a proper threat any other way as they can simply be walked away from. In a pure DW list they also now suffer the problem of needing half the lists' PL deployed on the table, which is significant bc DW are expensive.

There are only really two ways I can see DW being run, both of them with DW as token elements of an otherwise non-DW force. The first is a block of 10 kitted out for shooting to act as area denial. Put scout screens out to make sure they have somewhere to land or use an opening in the enemy lines and then use them to lock down that portion of board. The second is DWK with Ezekiel and Asmodai in a Stormraven, with a JP master and plas Inceptors arriving along side them on turn 2.

Edit: alternatively run a Ven Dread / FW Dread gunline but I don't think that's what you meant by Deathwing

I don't think I described it as paying 750 points for 7 MEQ wounds, and the group has an approximately 48% chance per unit for a charge upon arrival with the Master of Maneuver Warlord Trait. So within 4 units, you could expect a good chance of 2 units to charge on arrival.

With rerolls for all close combat attacks, and 3 attacks per power fist, is that really such an atrocious waste of points?

Imo, yeah. There's just too much hinging on enough units getting in and 48% are not odds I'd want to be backing. If either of the characters fail their charge you either lose their buff or have to daisy chain your terminators back to stay within their bubble meaning not everyone gets to fight. Just one of those terminator units not making it in severely diminishes the output this stike is putting out, and I haven't done the math, but I honestly think you'll be underwhelmed by the amount of damage 10 terminators can put out even with all the buffs.

I also think they be pretty easy to screen against, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I suggested one unit of 10 because if the charge doesn't go off, it hasn't cost you a whole load of points, and they can act as an area denial. You could combat squad the unit in order to try and make one of the charges, but I'd probably just run it as one because chances are they're getting charged not doing the charging, and one unit wouldn't afford the opponent any concessions on overwatch or being able to charge one unit at a time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally though, I'd go the Stormraven route. If you want to guarantee turn 2 charges that's the way to do it. Plus the stormraven's a good unit of its own accord. Yes you're getting less terminators in, but it's heaps more reliable. You could ofc double down on the tactic and run 2 storm ravens with 5 termis each, Asmodai an Ezekiel in one, and a DW ancient in the other. That's a heap of points but equally would be a heap of fun

I wouldn't ever deepstrike DW Knights; the charge is just not reliable enough even with a reroll. The one time I tried it, I failed and my Knights just got kited the whole game and slowly killed. Instead, if I were hellbent on actually running Deathwing, I'd put a unit of 5 Knights in a Land Raider Crusader, along with Asmodai and an Ancient (could add a 6th Knight and/or Ezekiel if you wanted). Problem is, that combo is a huge number of points for not enough return, especially if you go second and the Land Raider gets blown up on your opponent's first turn.

An alternative I've used for DWK is dropping a Librarian in with them. That way, they at least stand a chance of having rerolls every turn. If you have a Ravenwing or other fast component to your army, you can often hem someone in fairly effectively by flanking with the DWK.

The big Deathwing drop (two squads with Belial and Ancient) was working well for me in the Index days, but it got tougher even before the Big FAQ as Codexes came out. Stratagems against units arriving from reserves became more common. It was always a CP hog, and I often had squads left in the open.

I've tried the Stormraven option, but its draws so much fire they tend to die leaving you no further ahead than if you teleported on turn 2. I even rolled three "1s" last week for my Deathwing Knights when the Stormraven crashed. I'm shelving normal Deathwing for a while, but I will keep adding the DW Knights from time to time to see if they can earn a place back in my list. Sometimes they have really shone! Other times, not so much...And they go through CPs like water.

I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.

SpaceJS wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.

Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.

Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).

 Brother Payne wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.

Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.

Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).

Do you find yourself regularly advancing to get the Jink 4++ then using the Assault keyword on the meltas?

 Brother Payne wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.

Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.

Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).

you are right of course but i like to keep my bikers as cheap as possible as i need my points elsewhere.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.

They can have combi-weapons per the index. GW really needs to get rid of that particular aspect of the FAQ and stick with 1 source.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.

Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.

Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).

Do you find yourself regularly advancing to get the Jink 4++ then using the Assault keyword on the meltas?

Honeslty it depends. If I think they're going to get all their work done in one phase of shooting then I won't bother. If I need them to stick around for multiple turns and can't protect them some other way then yeah, I'll advance for the 4++. If possible I'll even pop speed of the raven to tie something shooty up - they can fall back but at least I'll have shot at full BS and still have the 4++

MilkmanAl wrote:
They can have combi-weapons per the index. GW really needs to get rid of that particular aspect of the FAQ and stick with 1 source.

I will be damned, you're right. Wow, Ravenwing squads are actually good....

That's basically 3 specials plus 3 storm bolters per three man squad.

You could even add an attack bike with a heavy bolter and another storm bolter. Holy crap that's a lot of shots for a little squad.

 TedNugent wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
They can have combi-weapons per the index. GW really needs to get rid of that particular aspect of the FAQ and stick with 1 source.

I will be damned, you're right. Wow, Ravenwing squads are actually good....

That's basically 3 specials plus 3 storm bolters per three man squad.

You could even add an attack bike with a heavy bolter and another storm bolter. Holy crap that's a lot of shots for a little squad.

The attack bike is great for soaking up wounds too