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They won't. Just addressing that point.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG weren't bottom in 7th. Quit spreading that lie.

By "bottom" are we insisting on that meaning being "the absolute worst" or does "objectively bad at competitive play" work? Because while the former may be false, the latter is absolutely true.

All this talk about performance in previous editions is a bit pointless isn't it?

In one sense, sure, that no longer applies to the current game. In other ways, there's a sense in some quarters that IG basically hasn't been "allowed to be good" through most of the history of this game. They've only ever been really competitive in one edition besides 8th, they've struggled to reach even mediocrity in the others, and that does have an effect on the playerbase, not always positive. It also doesn't help that the last time IG infantry got a price bump (3.5E IG codex), they ended up being complete and total garbage (wooo 100+pt guardsmen squads!) for many years over parts of 3 editions (until the 2009 5E codex).

There's also a sense among some, conscious/unspoken or not, that certain armies are supposed to be good and some are supposed to be bad (reinforced by longstanding uncompetitiveness across multiple editions), and IG, along with Orks and a couple others, fall into that latter category. I've literally had an Eldar player get mad at me, not about losing a game, but about losing to Guard, because "that shouldn't happen to Eldar, it's just not fluffy for them to lose to Guard".

I'm not sure I buy into either of these philosophies myself, at least as something intended on GW's end (rather, I see these issues as expressions of GW's inability to manage its own game for the most part), but these things exist in the mindset of many players as a result of past editions.

It doesn't affect us now and right now IG are NOT bad and will NOT be bad with 5 point IS.

I wasn't addressing that, and I don't think I've made that case anywhere in this thread, I was addressing what I saw as a pedantic response to a hyperbolic statement about a rumored change for which we have no confirmation, look no deeper into my previous post than that

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG weren't bottom in 7th. Quit spreading that lie.

By "bottom" are we insisting on that meaning being "the absolute worst" or does "objectively bad at competitive play" work? Because while the former may be false, the latter is absolutely true.

Ice_can wrote:
Sorry just realised that its a lemon Russ Annihilator I was talking about the twin lass cannon turret. Thats 5 lascannon shots with grinding advance for 182 points. Thats 4 lascannon shots a bs4 and 1 at bs 5 moving for less than a Predator with 4 las which are bs3 static and bs4 moving.

Sure, it works about to being about as cost efficient as a Predator (both come in at about ~37pts per wound per turn). The Russ is a little more resilient, a little better moving slowly, a bit lower absolute average damage output and dramatically lower max speed damage output. One could argue the relative merits there, but they're not too out of sync, and the Annihilator can't be taken as a Tank Commander.

I agree that the blast into a straight number of shots thing is a crap solution, especially hitting the same model too many times it should have had a keyword that limited rehitting the same model.
I'm not saying the vanquisher doesn't need fixed, I agree its sub optimal.

I just don't want it to turn into a race to alpha strike tablings which is how 8th edition is starting to feel.

That seems to be the direction GW is going, killier stuff, faster games. I agree that the alpha strikiness of the game in general is disconcerting,

It maybe I'm baised coming from first round/amature league only uncompetitive codex, but alot of guard stuff seams barely balanced and no clear vision of how other armies would be able to interact with it.
Though same goes for most of the recent codex's

There's a lot of wonkiness in general. GW is famously bad at balance. The power level of stuff within the IG codex swings wildly, there's some golden gems and abuseable options (looking at you auto-delete-any-non-LoW-tank Shadowsword) and some absolute stinkers (yay deathstrikes!).

My math puts the anhillator a little ahead on a harder to kill hull, though that said having looked at it again the issue there might be that the predator is too easy to kill.

Also I can't think of a time in a non casual setting when I have had someone let me not have to move my predator to get shots

Also you can take heavy bolters on top of these to cover the weakness against infantry but as its a forgeworld unit I'm dropping the comparisons as in my opinion its not realy fair to compair forge world vrs codex as they are will always be a commercial reason for Forgeworld rules to be better than regular gw otherwise the amount they would sell would probably be a lot less.

I know GW's is terible at balance even second had some mental imbalances but it wasn't competitive and they never made any claims of it being a balanced game it was a time waster with friends. 8th edition codex were supposedly play tested for balance and it now appears that they balanced them in batched of 4 or such so no linier power creep, just massive jumps from batch to batch.

Wolfblade wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
So, it looks like we are returning to the good old days of 7th, with IG being rapidly nerfed back to the bottom of the pecking order, just where they should be
After all, we cant have any competition for our power armoured mary sues can we?

While IG has been bad since 6th (although not ork levels of bad, or 'nid level) the nerfs are far from dragging them from being a top tier army, especially when manticores, guardsmen, and scions are all still incredibly powerful. Hell Guardsmen are probably the best troop in the game, and scions are the cheapest possible platform for mass plasma guns possible AND get to RF the plasma guns onto anything they wish.

Not entirely up to date on all of IG, but nothing seems as bad as it was (except maybe regular battle cannon LRs or the Vanquisher I guess) and a lot of stuff became good, if not the best in it's category.

Things where better, yes, but with the recent spate of nerfs I can already see the abyss yawning beneath us. Guardsmen are currently ok, but the lack of combined squads makes using orders difficult. Conscripts (and Guard regulars) are considered extremely good primarily because you can ally them with Marines, etc and get a cheap meatshield/blob for the units that actually do things.

Dandelion wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
So, it looks like we are returning to the good old days of 7th, with IG being rapidly nerfed back to the bottom of the pecking order, just where they should be
After all, we cant have any competition for our power armoured mary sues can we?

Argument in favor of nerf: Guard Infantry are worth 5 ppm.
Your counter argument: Marine players are whiners.

k

Yeah, I guess it makes up for all the "Stop whining and l2p Marine player comments over the past few editions.

Martel732 wrote:IG weren't bottom in 7th. Quit spreading that lie.

Actually they where Martel. There where some worse off than your precious blood angels, despite what you want to claim.

IG was a much better list in 7th than BA. Tournament results show this, as well as anecdotal matchups. You couldn't figure it out, because they weren't point and click like they are now. Infantry power blobs were a thing, and giving that many weapons ignore cover with divination was nasty. Giving that many models a 4++ was nasty. They were not the bottom, no matter how many times you say it.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
So, it looks like we are returning to the good old days of 7th, with IG being rapidly nerfed back to the bottom of the pecking order, just where they should be
After all, we cant have any competition for our power armoured mary sues can we?

While IG has been bad since 6th (although not ork levels of bad, or 'nid level) the nerfs are far from dragging them from being a top tier army, especially when manticores, guardsmen, and scions are all still incredibly powerful. Hell Guardsmen are probably the best troop in the game, and scions are the cheapest possible platform for mass plasma guns possible AND get to RF the plasma guns onto anything they wish.

Not entirely up to date on all of IG, but nothing seems as bad as it was (except maybe regular battle cannon LRs or the Vanquisher I guess) and a lot of stuff became good, if not the best in it's category.

Things where better, yes, but with the recent spate of nerfs I can already see the abyss yawning beneath us. Guardsmen are currently ok, but the lack of combined squads makes using orders difficult. Conscripts (and Guard regulars) are considered extremely good primarily because you can ally them with Marines, etc and get a cheap meatshield/blob for the units that actually do things.

Again, Guardsmen are hands down the best troops in the game at 4 ppm, and probably will remain that way at 5ppm. Just because some of their units are getting balanced doesn't mean it's suddenly a never ending slide to the bottom of the bin (where they've never been at. Try asking orks, GK, DE, BA, SoB or 'nids what it's like first. Those were the real contenders for worst army. (Or, if we really want to get picky, any of the "ally only" factions like the Inquisition or Harlies.))

MoO doesn't understand that IG also have some of the best units for "doing things". Other factions soup in guardsmen to try to keep up. Without dark reapers and -1 to hit traits, IG would be dominant for sure. GW overestimates how much BS 4+ affects the guard on many units, and then underestimates it on others.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Again, Guardsmen are hands down the best troops in the game at 4 ppm, and probably will remain that way at 5ppm. Just because some of their units are getting balanced doesn't mean it's suddenly a never ending slide to the bottom of the bin (where they've never been at. Try asking orks, GK, DE, BA, SoB or 'nids what it's like first. Those were the real contenders for worst army. (Or, if we really want to get picky, any of the "ally only" factions like the Inquisition or Harlies.))

How many Conscripts have you seen lately?
Commissars?
Primaris Psykers since the points shift?
Veteran Squads with Plasmas?


Tyranids are, right now, a pretty solid book. Blood Angels as well.
GK need help but even then they're kinda in the same boat as IG since the Grandmaster in Dreadknight is a bit too good of an ally option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
MoO doesn't understand that IG also have some of the best units for "doing things". Other factions soup in guardsmen to try to keep up. Without dark reapers and -1 to hit traits, IG would be dominant for sure. GW overestimates how much BS 4+ affects the guard on many units, and then underestimates it on others.

Yeah, no. "Other factions" soup in Guardsmen to bring bubble wrap for their better stuff or to bring in the strength of Guard(relatively cheap access to decent indirect fire weapons) to try to give themselves an edge.

There's not really much of a fix to that aside from really hitting the ability to ally things in.

Yeah,... RIGHT NOW tyranids are basically the best book out there. Not the most over powered, the best in terms of what everyone should be looking for. But before RIGHT NOW, nids spent 3 editions getting worse and worse and worse. Down to depths IG never experienced.

Ice_can wrote:

Also you can take heavy bolters on top of these to cover the weakness against infantry but as its a forgeworld unit I'm dropping the comparisons as in my opinion its not realy fair to compair forge world vrs codex as they are will always be a commercial reason for Forgeworld rules to be better than regular gw otherwise the amount they would sell would probably be a lot less.

I know GW's is terible at balance even second had some mental imbalances but it wasn't competitive and they never made any claims of it being a balanced game it was a time waster with friends. 8th edition codex were supposedly play tested for balance and it now appears that they balanced them in batched of 4 or such so no linier power creep, just massive jumps from batch to batch.

You realize historically it's FW who has had weaker units as they tend to err on the side of weaker than stronger. Of course having semi competent developers unlike at GW it's easier.

It's GW who is deliberately changing balance to force people to buy new stuff. OR how about their pure marketing stunt of raising FW points for 300% despite those not showing up tournaments let alone dominate(seriously if somebody would be broken enough it would be worth 300% price hike every tournament would be dominated by those!). But that was just obvious play for GW to direct gamers money to spam plastic which is more profitable for them leaving resin for collectors who don't buy multiples of same stuff or care about balance.

 Kanluwen wrote:

How many Conscripts have you seen lately?
Commissars?
Primaris Psykers since the points shift?
Veteran Squads with Plasmas?

Hey, I have an idea! Why don't we bump Infantry Squads to 5ppm to give breathing room to conscripts? Then we buff commissars so that they actually help conscripts. We'll also make veterans less of a price jump at the same time!

But you do bring up a good point about Plasma costs compared to regular squads. They doubled the price of the gun which IMHO was too much. It should have only gone to 9 or 10 pts for BS 3+ instead. If you want to argue Plasma should be nerfed that's different, because this is only about the relative costs for the same gun.
Melta should also be cheaper. Maybe 10 pts base and 14 pts for vets as an example.

I've literally had an Eldar player get mad at me, not about losing a game, but about losing to Guard, because "that shouldn't happen to Eldar, it's just not fluffy for them to lose to Guard".

I'm not sure I buy into either of these philosophies myself, at least as something intended on GW's end (rather, I see these issues as expressions of GW's inability to manage its own game for the most part), but these things exist in the mindset of many players as a result of past editions.

That guy's statement is pretty preposterous, but I've never encountered such a thought. Why would you even put models on the table if Eldar is "supposed to win"?

I can be almost 100% certain that it is not GW's intention to support that, either. You could say that in the past they were really bad at managing things, but I'll argue it is considerably less so now. I'm sure Tau and Eldar are coming off their high from last edition and so maybe some feel superior. Whatever the case may be they're on a shrinking island and anyone who buys models to chase a meta is going to get burned sooner rather than later.

I'd be fine with a 1 point bump to Infantry squads if they de-nerfed the Commissar so he could do his job like he was supposed to.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'd be fine with a 1 point bump to Infantry squads if they de-nerfed the Commissar so he could do his job like he was supposed to.

I'd rather they drop the points of the commissar. There isn't a good reason to give IG a better morale than Space Marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Again, Guardsmen are hands down the best troops in the game at 4 ppm, and probably will remain that way at 5ppm. Just because some of their units are getting balanced doesn't mean it's suddenly a never ending slide to the bottom of the bin (where they've never been at. Try asking orks, GK, DE, BA, SoB or 'nids what it's like first. Those were the real contenders for worst army. (Or, if we really want to get picky, any of the "ally only" factions like the Inquisition or Harlies.))

How many Conscripts have you seen lately?
Commissars?
Primaris Psykers since the points shift?
Veteran Squads with Plasmas?


Tyranids are, right now, a pretty solid book. Blood Angels as well.
GK need help but even then they're kinda in the same boat as IG since the Grandmaster in Dreadknight is a bit too good of an ally option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
MoO doesn't understand that IG also have some of the best units for "doing things". Other factions soup in guardsmen to try to keep up. Without dark reapers and -1 to hit traits, IG would be dominant for sure. GW overestimates how much BS 4+ affects the guard on many units, and then underestimates it on others.

Yeah, no. "Other factions" soup in Guardsmen to bring bubble wrap for their better stuff or to bring in the strength of Guard(relatively cheap access to decent indirect fire weapons) to try to give themselves an edge.

There's not really much of a fix to that aside from really hitting the ability to ally things in.

Just because they're no longer the best thing in the codex doesn't mean they're bottom tier trash. (And yes, like every codex there are meh options, like vets, since scions do what they do, but way better with plas.) And Psykers went away with the smite nerf, not the point jump iirc.

And my list was not talking about 8th but previous editions.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'd be fine with a 1 point bump to Infantry squads if they de-nerfed the Commissar so he could do his job like he was supposed to.

I'd rather they drop the points of the commissar. There isn't a good reason to give IG a better morale than Space Marines.

Bare minimum fix for the Comm is to take the ability from "must" to "may" - so if you roll a 1 on the check (while still failing), you're not forced to reroll it.

Why does any IG list running 10 man squads even care about a commissar anyway?

 Dysartes wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'd be fine with a 1 point bump to Infantry squads if they de-nerfed the Commissar so he could do his job like he was supposed to.

I'd rather they drop the points of the commissar. There isn't a good reason to give IG a better morale than Space Marines.

Bare minimum fix for the Comm is to take the ability from "must" to "may" - so if you roll a 1 on the check (while still failing), you're not forced to reroll it.

Thats not how a Commisar works. If your running you get shot, running being the 'right thing' or inevitable doesn't matter.

Ordana wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'd be fine with a 1 point bump to Infantry squads if they de-nerfed the Commissar so he could do his job like he was supposed to.

I'd rather they drop the points of the commissar. There isn't a good reason to give IG a better morale than Space Marines.

Bare minimum fix for the Comm is to take the ability from "must" to "may" - so if you roll a 1 on the check (while still failing), you're not forced to reroll it.

Thats not how a Commisar works. If your running you get shot, running being the 'right thing' or inevitable doesn't matter.

But as it is, the Commissar has little to no use. Post nerf they had at least a small niche with Conscripts, but then they got kneecapped by several nerfs of their own until you basically don't hear of anybody taking Conscripts anymore, and on basic Infantry, Veteran, and Scion squads they provide a +1 Leadership bubble that is negated by the fact that other methods of getting that +1 Leadership for Guard don't involve possibly making morale checks worse. Making it optional at least means that you won't get actively punished for taking the Commissar.

Ordana wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'd be fine with a 1 point bump to Infantry squads if they de-nerfed the Commissar so he could do his job like he was supposed to.

I'd rather they drop the points of the commissar. There isn't a good reason to give IG a better morale than Space Marines.

Bare minimum fix for the Comm is to take the ability from "must" to "may" - so if you roll a 1 on the check (while still failing), you're not forced to reroll it.

Thats not how a Commisar works. If your running you get shot, running being the 'right thing' or inevitable doesn't matter.

Sorry, who made you keeper of the Commissariat handbook?
Christ, we have a whole book series about a Commissar that doesn't behave this way. We have quotes like Viktor Hark's from "Armour of Contempt", which (paraphrasing the quote here) is about him not executing fleeing tank crewmen but instead executing their commander after the battle:
"If they ignore my rank and my commands in the midst of battle, how can I fault them? They were untested boys and their leadership wasn't sound. The leaders were at fault."

It's not an uncommon philosophy, it seems, but it's also a philosophy that seems to be aimed more towards keeping their manpower and veteran troops useful rather than terrorized.

Maybe the could just rework him into a chaplain guy for IG. Guard units use his leadership (make it 10) and he lets IG reroll 1's in close combat. Subtracting 10 from battleshock is pretty powerful, but doesn't negate catastrophic losses.

Do they intend to fix that rerollable artifact the guard get, which gives you a free Guilliman every turn? Or is it as intended and meant to be used all the time?

Ordana wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'd be fine with a 1 point bump to Infantry squads if they de-nerfed the Commissar so he could do his job like he was supposed to.

I'd rather they drop the points of the commissar. There isn't a good reason to give IG a better morale than Space Marines.

Bare minimum fix for the Comm is to take the ability from "must" to "may" - so if you roll a 1 on the check (while still failing), you're not forced to reroll it.

Thats not how a Commisar works. If your running you get shot, running being the 'right thing' or inevitable doesn't matter.

It should just be "roll twice take the lower result".

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:
Do they intend to fix that rerollable artifact the guard get, which gives you a free Guilliman every turn? Or is it as intended and meant to be used all the time?

...Wut?

CADIAN - Relic of Lost Cadia: Unveil at the start of any turn. Until the end of that turn, all CADIAN units within 12" of the bearer re-roll both hit and wound rolls of 1; they re-roll all failed hits and wounds against CHAOS units. Clearly intended to be a One Use, but lacks any such rule currently, so until it's FAQed, you can reveal it every turn. - To borrow off of 1D4CHAN. Not gone up against it myself, but a few people I know are seething over it.

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:
CADIAN - Relic of Lost Cadia: Unveil at the start of any turn. Until the end of that turn, all CADIAN units within 12" of the bearer re-roll both hit and wound rolls of 1; they re-roll all failed hits and wounds against CHAOS units. Clearly intended to be a One Use, but lacks any such rule currently, so until it's FAQed, you can reveal it every turn. - To borrow off of 1D4CHAN. Not gone up against it myself, but a few people I know are seething over it.

Nobody plays that one RAW unless they're that guy. Didn't see or hear of anyone pulling that at LVO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Why does any IG list running 10 man squads even care about a commissar anyway?

It was often the difference between the heavy weapon getting to fire one more turn or not. So many times pre nerf I'd have a squad take 6-7 casualties only for the commissary to blame one and guarantee another round for the Lascannon/plasma Gunner.

Most of my opponents post nerf try to do 7-8 wounds to a squad before moving on to the next one. Yes, I keep the first one for 2 CP, and I have a chance at the second squad with the D3 strat, but the third and later are bolting. Even at worst case and they only do that to two squads, I'm burning an average of 2 CP per turn after the refund. That adds up and very importantly is not being spent on OFoF, VfC, Defensive Gunners, Crush Them, and Take Cover.

I don't even take anything bigger than a mortar on infantry squads any more because trying to keep them in with Stratagems is way too CP intensive.

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

How many Conscripts have you seen lately?
Commissars?
Primaris Psykers since the points shift?
Veteran Squads with Plasmas?

Hey, I have an idea! Why don't we bump Infantry Squads to 5ppm to give breathing room to conscripts? Then we buff commissars so that they actually help conscripts. We'll also make veterans less of a price jump at the same time!
.

I have a better idea. Conscripts go back to 3ppm, Veteans gain the ability to take doctrines again, regular squads gain the ability to blob again and we also buff Commissars back to something that isnt "lol take a reroll but with +1" which is just plain stupid as you often end up losing more than your would have done anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
MoO doesn't understand that IG also have some of the best units for "doing things". Other factions soup in guardsmen to try to keep up. Without dark reapers and -1 to hit traits, IG would be dominant for sure. GW overestimates how much BS 4+ affects the guard on many units, and then underestimates it on others.

We have what? Cheap infantry that run away after a couple of turns, but act like a good buffer? Some decent indirect fire platforms? Thats it. Other factions 'soup in' Guard units to, as others have said, provide a cheap meatshield for their units that are actually doing something.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

How many Conscripts have you seen lately?
Commissars?
Primaris Psykers since the points shift?
Veteran Squads with Plasmas?

Hey, I have an idea! Why don't we bump Infantry Squads to 5ppm to give breathing room to conscripts? Then we buff commissars so that they actually help conscripts. We'll also make veterans less of a price jump at the same time!
.

I have a better idea. Conscripts go back to 3ppm, Veteans gain the ability to take doctrines again, regular squads gain the ability to blob again and we also buff Commissars back to something that isnt "lol take a reroll but with +1" which is just plain stupid as you often end up losing more than your would have done anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
MoO doesn't understand that IG also have some of the best units for "doing things". Other factions soup in guardsmen to try to keep up. Without dark reapers and -1 to hit traits, IG would be dominant for sure. GW overestimates how much BS 4+ affects the guard on many units, and then underestimates it on others.

We have what? Cheap infantry that run away after a couple of turns, but act like a good buffer? Some decent indirect fire platforms? Thats it. Other factions 'soup in' Guard units to, as others have said, provide a cheap meatshield for their units that are actually doing something.

Guardsmen are hands down the best infantry in the game per point. And they will continue to be good even at 5 ppm. I have personal experience as well as math to prove it.

Considering that anything can conceivably wound anything else this edition, mass amounts of guard flashlights provide more than a meatshield. Volume of fire wins out these days, and Guard has it in spades.

 Porphyrius wrote:
Considering that anything can conceivably wound anything else this edition, mass amounts of guard flashlights provide more than a meatshield. Volume of fire wins out these days, and Guard has it in spades.

Which was partly why people were freaking out about Conscripts so early.

If they'd just changed them from Lasguns to Autoguns, it would have immediately killed some of the whining.