Switch Theme:

Codex Genestealer Cults Tactica: Our day of ascension draws near!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





hangnailnz wrote:
Although if you look closely, there was only one GSC player at the tournament, so they are probably just blaming them for the faction's lack of success. Whereas the 14 Drukhari players with their 64% win rate... I am sure we could take them, given a chance


Also normalizing torwards 50% for specific factions doesn't happen because mirror matches are somthing that doesn't exist... right?


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in de
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Not Online!!! wrote:
So to understand this list a bit:

He got four armed for the deny strat and the blender Patriarch ?


Pauper for the rest.
2 x 10 4 cutter acolythes for blending and heavy dutty work
1 x 10 4 saw for the above.
In combination with the bigger aura primus.

Another saw mini squad.
2 normal msu for capping and annoying.
I guess the saw mini squad is there to bully something tougher off an objective? or for a smaller footprint insertion.


the 10 metamorphs with hand flamers he can use like a flamer bomb or as a defensive tool as noted.

I don't get the brood brothers over neophytes.

The 9 ridgerunners are baseline with the alphus i guess. ( i hate the state of such units... that you can't circumvent more or less)

Its imensly versatile, btw is broodcoven allowed over multiple cults?
But i'd be a bit concerned about durability?
Then again thats where the goliaths come in i guess?


If you want deeper insights in his thoughts, he uploaded a video about his list and the tournament.

https://youtu.be/gkl6hZBKnho

   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





I get it. Its saucy. Honestly going 2 rocksaws 1 cutter with the banner is probably best. Mixed weapons are the name of the game these days. Especially in hivecult. Turning the laser cars into more reliable hitting machines is more important imo.
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

So I hope this doesn't come off badly. I have dark eldar and I sort of want to try a new army. The weird thing is my most common opponent plays craftworld eldar and imperial guard. I think he's often out of practice and mostly priced out of the hobby like I am but our factions seem horribly mismatched in power level.

The faction I want to play are either admech or gsc. Admech sound fun but each kit is ungodly expensive and it's another top tier army. Gsc is very low tier if I recall but by the time I get enough models it might completely change with a 9th ed codex and with the arms race we've had it could likely outpace everything else.

Anyway I'm in a predicament. I haven't fought admech enough to see their playstyle which could be fun and gsc while unique and very hard hitting early 9n seemed to fall apart like literal paper even vs dark eldar last I played. I'm not sure if gsc is my jam.

One of my big issues is I want various tier armies so I don't throw a top tier army against a low tier one or a low tier one for me vs a top tier army. That just isn't fun for anybody.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/17 06:51:53


Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Genestealer cults are positioned very badly. It is also one of the most exspensive armies to collect uless you do some out of the box thinking.

One of the problems is that the codex has 4 units that do the same thing, but only one of them is worth taking in every thinkable senario. (Acolytes.)

There are very few non hero units in the codex. Most of the heroes are crap in 9th edition. Many of the non-hero unist are quite bad.

In my own experience the only good thing is spamming acolytes with handflamers in trucks with ridgerunner backup. This is OK. The rest of the codex is hot garbage.

5 acolyte hybrids cost 40$
goliath truck 60$
ridgerunner 50$

I think my last list ran some 70 acolytes, 4 or 5 trucks and 6 ridgerunners. You do the math.

On to the good news. The acolyte hybrid pack comes with lot extra parts. It is easy to take other models and saw/file down their sides and stick some arms on there. It is also easy to kitash hand flamers. If they are holding a banner you do not need a hand to hold a hand flamer per say. The start collecting GSC kit comes with 5 acolytes, 10 neophytes and a ridgerunner. With some thinkering you can easaly build 15 acolytes from that.

If you like to kitbash childs toys or 3D print things I have seen some amasing and cheap goliath truck conversions.

If you want something mid-tier then roll up some space marines. Space marines are cheap to collect. And outside of a few outstanding units they are mostly mediocer.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in ch
Regular Dakkanaut




Is it possible to legally play GSC + Tyranids alliance in 9th? And is there any merit to that, if it is?
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Is it possible to legally play GSC + Tyranids alliance in 9th? And is there any merit to that, if it is?


It is legal. You can even use the GSC to smugle in a 3rd detachments of imperial guard.

As to why, that is a good question. The rule of cool or you want some GSC stratagem (A plan years in the making.) Neither army feel like they are missing something the other offer. Or rather tyranids can stand on an objective where GSC just vapirise.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Utilizing Careful Highlighting





Augusta GA

I keep getting this urge to try a Pauper Princes mass flamer spam list built around double shooting, then dying and double shooting again with the relic banner and psychic power.

But that’s too much cash to invest in them right now.
   
Made in ch
Regular Dakkanaut




 Niiai wrote:
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Is it possible to legally play GSC + Tyranids alliance in 9th? And is there any merit to that, if it is?


It is legal. You can even use the GSC to smugle in a 3rd detachments of imperial guard.

As to why, that is a good question. The rule of cool or you want some GSC stratagem (A plan years in the making.) Neither army feel like they are missing something the other offer. Or rather tyranids can stand on an objective where GSC just vapirise.


All of those three armies are sort of in a gutter tier wise then, huh?
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I would not say so. Tyranids puts up good result. But you need to be a wizard with the codex.

IG I can not speak of. But I have not heard anything good with it. GSC are bottom of the barrel. Best build as far as the internett consesus is some combination of trucks, handflamers and ridgerunners.

I think you will find the pattern beeing 8th edition codexes in a 9th edition world.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






 Niiai wrote:

One of the problems is that the codex has 4 units that do the same thing, but only one of them is worth taking in every thinkable senario. (Acolytes.)


I'd disagree that the four melee units do "the same thing" outside of a very broad "hit things in melee" and "die fast when targeted". Metamorphs are anti-light infantry/anti-melee, they have high volume of low damage attacks and tech that allows them to swing even if killed. Aberrants are kitted for multi-wound targets (picks for infantry, hammers for bigger things) and are a bit tougher so they can brawl with heavy infantry. Purestrains are arguably the weakest of the lot due to a variety of factors, but looking only at their unit profile they are the most mobile of our melee options with a mild durability boost (T4 and 5++).

The main reason Acolytes see play while the others are less common is that they are the only one of the four that did not receive a heavy price increase with 9th, making them the only one that can consistently "trade up" easily. Metamorphs have also been seeing increasing play in tournament lists as an anti-melee tool, thanks to an increase in fragile (1 wound) but hard/fast hitting melee squads.

 Niiai wrote:
There are very few non hero units in the codex. Most of the heroes are crap in 9th edition. Many of the non-hero unist are quite bad.


The melee Sanctus and Locus are both decent for action secondaries. The rest are mostly just suffering from being pricey or their associated unit is pricey (Biophagus to Aberrants).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/20 18:54:24


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Strat_N8 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:

One of the problems is that the codex has 4 units that do the same thing, but only one of them is worth taking in every thinkable senario. (Acolytes.)


I'd disagree that the four melee units do "the same thing" outside of a very broad "hit things in melee" and "die fast when targeted". Metamorphs are anti-light infantry/anti-melee, they have high volume of low damage attacks and tech that allows them to swing even if killed. Aberrants are kitted for multi-wound targets (picks for infantry, hammers for bigger things) and are a bit tougher so they can brawl with heavy infantry. Purestrains are arguably the weakest of the lot due to a variety of factors, but looking only at their unit profile they are the most mobile of our melee options with a mild durability boost (T4 and 5++).

The main reason Acolytes see play while the others are less common is that they are the only one of the four that did not receive a heavy price increase with 9th, making them the only one that can consistently "trade up" easily. Metamorphs have also been seeing increasing play in tournament lists as an anti-melee tool, thanks to an increase in fragile (1 wound) but hard/fast hitting melee squads.

 Niiai wrote:
There are very few non hero units in the codex. Most of the heroes are crap in 9th edition. Many of the non-hero unist are quite bad.


The melee Sanctus and Locus are both decent for action secondaries. The rest are mostly just suffering from being pricey or their associated unit is pricey (Biophagus to Aberrants).


Only aberrants offer any real meaningfully distinct role in the current paradigm.

if you are not interested in discussing weapons that are demonstrably worse than other weapons for the point costs on the platform (Scything talons, metamorph crab claws, aberrant hammers) then Metamorphs, Acolytes, and Purestrains are all essentially identical S4 AP-1 D1 AP-3 on a 6 melee glass cannons. The distinguishing factors (metamorphs can fight when they die, acolytes are Troops and can take heavy weapons, purestrains are T4 5++ instead of T3 5+) are INCREDIBLY minor, and basically result in acos being the go to pick 99% of the time with the slight edge case of metas if you want another unit to come in alongside a T2 bomb unit that you want to have insurance against fight-last and interrupt mechanics.

Aberrants are distinct, being the only unit that brings some anti-elite teeth with their D3 damage weapons and base S5, but they are also heavily heavily overpriced compared to special weapon spamming acos, so their splash in the pond is more like a drop in the bucket.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, Genestealers CAN be a distinct unit....but just not, you know, in our codex.

If you ally them in from codex 'nids, genestealers can be given various buffs to durability to act as an anvil unit, or double-move slung across the board as a T1 tempo melee unit.

But in codex GSC, they're just a nothing unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/20 19:06:26


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

While you do have good points that I could probably go into with you and we find good use of all the other 3 units the problem is that currently acolytes are the only thing that makes sence.

Abberants are very cool and perform good roles. But buying acolytes with the right mining tool is better for the points you pay.

Hybrids are very cool. Whip is a cool option in 9th. Also making a blending unit that hits on 2's with 5 attacks is cool. I have some of them from 8th. But in 9th they cost to much compared to acolytes.

Trueborn are just worse tyranid sealers, and you have no Swarmlord support. If you really want the mobilaty acolytes in twisted helix and charge and advance stratagem is better.

If any of these units gets cheaper then yes they will be good. But currently acolytes are better IMHO. It is a points issue. Many of them are actually quite interesting. Just to expensive.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






 the_scotsman wrote:

if you are not interested in discussing weapons that are demonstrably worse than other weapons for the point costs on the platform (Scything talons, metamorph crab claws, aberrant hammers) then Metamorphs, Acolytes, and Purestrains are all essentially identical S4 AP-1 D1 AP-4 on a 6 melee glass cannons.


I thought I did allude to the other weapon configurations in analysis? Admittedly, the opinions on unit roles in the prior post are more from a "what is this unit intended to do based on its stats and abilities" perspective rather than a points efficiency one in this instance. As noted, all of the non-Acolyte units are priced out of being competitive options (Whipmorphs are still pricey, but they can cost effectively hold down other glass hammers).

The little quirks of the different units does change how they are used though and what are their ideal targets. Whipmorphs are much more comfortable going up against other melee units than the others as nothing will stop them from getting their swings in. They also have the highest volume of rending attacks of the three (16 to 21 from a min unit) and stop consolidation moves on the part of the opponent. Acolytes have the fewest rending attacks but can supplement them with their heavy weapons. Genestealers (especially Tyranid ones) are the fastest so they aren't as reliant on deepstrike or transports to get around the map.

I suppose to expand beyond whipmorphs, the duel talon configuration is a low-save horde killer, but 9th edition generally discourages that type of unit on top of their being pricey. The claw just needs a rewrite since its entire gimmick is a relic from 7th edition.

I suppose to reiterate, I do not disagree that Acolytes are generally the best option. I just think it is overly-simplifying things to say that the units do the exact same role.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/20 21:05:23


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

If they where better price balanced, witch the codex is not, it would be a discussion with some merit. Right now it is a discussion where people end up taking acolytes. If they play GSC at all.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Strat_N8 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

if you are not interested in discussing weapons that are demonstrably worse than other weapons for the point costs on the platform (Scything talons, metamorph crab claws, aberrant hammers) then Metamorphs, Acolytes, and Purestrains are all essentially identical S4 AP-1 D1 AP-4 on a 6 melee glass cannons.


I thought I did allude to the other weapon configurations in analysis? Admittedly, the opinions on unit roles in the prior post are more from a "what is this unit intended to do based on its stats and abilities" perspective rather than a points efficiency one in this instance. As noted, all of the non-Acolyte units are priced out of being competitive options (Whipmorphs are still pricey, but they can cost effectively hold down other glass hammers).

The little quirks of the different units does change how they are used though and what are their ideal targets. Whipmorphs are much more comfortable going up against other melee units than the others as nothing will stop them from getting their swings in. They also have the highest volume of rending attacks of the three (16 to 21 from a min unit) and stop consolidation moves on the part of the opponent. Acolytes have the fewest rending attacks but can supplement them with their heavy weapons. Genestealers (especially Tyranid ones) are the fastest so they aren't as reliant on deepstrike or transports to get around the map.

I suppose to expand beyond whipmorphs, the duel talon configuration is a low-save horde killer, but 9th edition generally discourages that type of unit on top of their being pricey. The claw just needs a rewrite since its entire gimmick is a relic from 7th edition.

I suppose to reiterate, I do not disagree that Acolytes are generally the best option. I just think it is overly-simplifying things to say that the units do the exact same role.


I guess in theory I agree, I just don't think something like "S6 AP-1 d1" and "S4 AP-1 d1 AP-3 on a 6 to wound" with an identical T3 5+ defensive statline and identical deep strike and identical ranged weaponry is enough of a distinction to actually warrant calling that unit 'A distinct role.' It's a bit like claiming Reivers with bolt carbines have 'a distinct role' from Primaris Infiltrators or Incursors because Reivers Deep Strike and don't get any special rules on their boltguns, so their role is "Worse than the other two" and you take reivers when you're certain that you want to shoot things with boltguns but you know for a fact you don't want to do it until turn 2.

Also, point costs can put paid to 'a distinct role.' For the points, dual-talon metamorphs are inferior to acolytes in terms of damage per point against any target with at least a 6+ regular save, and acolytes are nearly twice as durable (8ppw vs 15ppw), and have obsec. Saying that dual-talon metas have a role because you might know FOR CERTAIN that you're going to be fighting Daemons and Harlequins and you just DESPERATELY are going to need that extra 10% damage boost SO MUCH and you definitely can't bring a Primus to give the acolytes +1 to hit anyway to erase the advantage...it's a major stretch.

Metamorphs sorely need a role changeup. Personally, I think it'd be cool (and, tbh, fitting with GW's push away from 'buy lots of third party bitz to fully equip the squad with the same weapon') if metamorphs could have any of the melee weapon profiles they're able to bring, and could change what they are in the command phase. The value of Claw vs Talons vs Whip is basically equivalent, they could all be 0pts and the unit would be fine, so why not remove 'WYSIWYG' as a concern entirely and assume that someone building metamorphs is going to build them the only way you're able to with the kit?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

In theory if the brood brother model costed 1 points it would be the best model for any job. What would you want 1 acciles ridgerunner or 70 models? Points do matter.

In fact all of the 4 identical units could alle see play if they where costed well. Aberant as a heavy hitter and tanky unit. Trueborn as long range strikers. Acolytes as objective secure, heavy weapons and hand flamers. Metamorphs can have whips, hand flamers and the no AP loads of attack blendering but oose objective secure.

In fact all of those things are alreay in the profile. But with the points beeing as they are there is no real distiction there. I do not know where the points should be exactly. But if metamorphs costed the same as acolytes do with all the bells and whistels there would at least be some consideration. Sid Meyer defined games a series of interesting choises. I have some problems with that definition, but it has a good point. And the four units in question do not really have interesting choises at the moment.


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




With how assault works in 40k there's essentially no difference to blending termagaunts, marines or tanks. If you really can't do one, you are probably in trouble and not a viable unit.

Which is why I think punching variety is a bit meaningless - be it talons, claws, saws, or hammers. You are either pointed up the curve or you are not. Obviously metamorphs are more attractive if they are the same points as acolytes rather than considerably more - but its not giving them a different function.

If you want variety, the four units need to have something else going for them. Abberants for example could be DG Terminator level tough and therefore potentially serve as an anvil. Purestrains could infiltrate for first turn charge potential (kind of lame, but its a thing). Metamorphs could get some rule to deny the opponent obsec, or otherwise mess with them in some way. Not very inspired but hopefully gets the point across.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

That is not true, the claim about blending. A gaunt is T3 1W 6+. A scything Hierodule is T8 18W 3+.

You need very different weapons for killing them. And they have very different roles meaning you meet them in different places on the battlefield.

Say acolyte remains the same.
Purestrain where 12 points.
Abberants 20 points, hammer where 5.
Hybrid Metamorphs 8 base, flamer 3, whip 1, Metamorphs claw 1.

Those would be some interesting points. And I am not sure witch units I would take for each role. There is stil plenty of use in each. And not picking acolytes means you loose objective secure. And you have to juggle the elite slot.

But as of now, not so much.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




An aspect of metamorphs that is just recently been recognized is their ability to prevent your opponents from taking a point during their turn. Because of how the whip rule is worded, if you place your metamorphs in between an objective and an opponent, it is very difficult for your opponent to take that objective in their turn. Either they shoot you off the objective and cannot charge, or they charge and consolidate into your still-standing metamorphs. Not too many 55 point units I know of that are guaranteed to survive a charge for consolidation purposes.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: