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So I know this is not technically the list building part of dakka but I'm very interested in dusting off my necrons (barely saw the table in 8E) but the new dex is ... well complicated. Almost too many potentially good units I think. I picked up 2 of the indomitus box halves and a void dragon and I own every stinking older necron model. What's everyone been playing that they've seen do well? Need to start playing again (had to go on hiatus during the Christmas season which started in October for me). List suggestions would be much appreciated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/13 15:06:52


 
   
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Current competitive necron lists are ~50 warriors with the silent king, technomancer, chronomancer, ghost ark. In addition, some have spyders and scarabs, some have skorpekh lords and skorpekh destroyers.
   
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 necron99 wrote:
So I know this is not technically the list building part of dakka but I'm very interested in dusting off my necrons (barely saw the table in 8E) but the new dex is ... well complicated. Almost too many potentially good units I think. I picked up 2 of the indomitus box halves and a void dragon and I own every stinking older necron model. What's everyone been playing that they've seen do well? Need to start playing again (had to go on hiatus during the Christmas season which started in October for me). List suggestions would be much appreciated.


A lot of lists at the moment are building around the SK and warriors for sure. They're often also mono dynasty (usually novokh) to make use of the flexibility the SK gives to command protocols on top of the buffs he gives to core units.

That's by no means the only competitive build though. There was a list recently that missed out on a top 4 spot by 3VP that was running 2 squads of 6 wraiths, 2 squads of 6 skorphekhs, the nightbringer, void dragon, 2 chronomancers and a squad of spyders with particle beamers.

The codex has got some great flexibility, you can run some off kilter/destruction focused builds thanks to eternal conquerors giving everything obsec.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/13 20:07:40


 
   
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The impression I’ve gotten is most people are running custom dynasty using the pregame move and everyone Obsec.

 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Current competitive necron lists are ~50 warriors with the silent king, technomancer, chronomancer, ghost ark. In addition, some have spyders and scarabs, some have skorpekh lords and skorpekh destroyers.

Silent King can become a liability if the enemy is targeting him.
And then a large part of your army is gone. I'd stay away from him.

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 AduroT wrote:
The impression I’ve gotten is most people are running custom dynasty using the pregame move and everyone Obsec.


For sure. It's a very powerful combo that gives basically any list fantastic utility. Those warrior spam lists often go novokh though because they already have obsec, plus it makes them a legitimate threat in melee.

If you splash the CP on a unit you can bump them up to 2 attacks (3 if you're running anrakyr), ap -1 and S6, with the chance to go to ap -2 on a 6 to wound when you're being affected by protocol of the hungry void.

Otherwise the warriors have a tendency to get bullied in CC, and we all know how common it is in 9th

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 11:30:23


 
   
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AduroT wrote:The impression I’ve gotten is most people are running custom dynasty using the pregame move and everyone Obsec.


That was the hype toward the beginning, but now that a lot of people have settled on the large warrior blobs + TSK, that's tended to steer toward Novokh for the CC punch. Turns out you don't really need OBSEC on the whole army when you've got 50 warriors to handle it.

wuestenfux wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Current competitive necron lists are ~50 warriors with the silent king, technomancer, chronomancer, ghost ark. In addition, some have spyders and scarabs, some have skorpekh lords and skorpekh destroyers.

Silent King can become a liability if the enemy is targeting him.
And then a large part of your army is gone. I'd stay away from him.


Yeah, but he has been the lynchpin in the top performing tournament lists. He adds a massive amount to the the silver tide playstyle. He's also not that easy to bring down since he can be obscured and his Menhirs have to go down first.

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 Sasori wrote:
AduroT wrote:The impression I’ve gotten is most people are running custom dynasty using the pregame move and everyone Obsec.


That was the hype toward the beginning, but now that a lot of people have settled on the large warrior blobs + TSK, that's tended to steer toward Novokh for the CC punch. Turns out you don't really need OBSEC on the whole army when you've got 50 warriors to handle it.

wuestenfux wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Current competitive necron lists are ~50 warriors with the silent king, technomancer, chronomancer, ghost ark. In addition, some have spyders and scarabs, some have skorpekh lords and skorpekh destroyers.

Silent King can become a liability if the enemy is targeting him.
And then a large part of your army is gone. I'd stay away from him.


Yeah, but he has been the lynchpin in the top performing tournament lists. He adds a massive amount to the the silver tide playstyle. He's also not that easy to bring down since he can be obscured and his Menhirs have to go down first.


I agree. I've used the SK a few times myself now and watched him being played fairly often to boot. Yes 450 pts is a hefty investment but he just synergizes too well with core and triarch units.

He works especially well when forcing your opponent to make tricky decisions I.e. presenting multiple threats on the board at once. Not a lot of armies are gonna be able to deal with a buffed up blob of 20+ warriors as well as the SK in a single turn; then if they try to take that swing and miss, you're in a really good position to counter punch. Especially because you can use the stellar alignment strat to boost back up the SKs fighting potential if he does take a big hit
   
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TheNEWnew wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
AduroT wrote:The impression I’ve gotten is most people are running custom dynasty using the pregame move and everyone Obsec.


That was the hype toward the beginning, but now that a lot of people have settled on the large warrior blobs + TSK, that's tended to steer toward Novokh for the CC punch. Turns out you don't really need OBSEC on the whole army when you've got 50 warriors to handle it.

wuestenfux wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Current competitive necron lists are ~50 warriors with the silent king, technomancer, chronomancer, ghost ark. In addition, some have spyders and scarabs, some have skorpekh lords and skorpekh destroyers.

Silent King can become a liability if the enemy is targeting him.
And then a large part of your army is gone. I'd stay away from him.


Yeah, but he has been the lynchpin in the top performing tournament lists. He adds a massive amount to the the silver tide playstyle. He's also not that easy to bring down since he can be obscured and his Menhirs have to go down first.


I agree. I've used the SK a few times myself now and watched him being played fairly often to boot. Yes 450 pts is a hefty investment but he just synergizes too well with core and triarch units.

He works especially well when forcing your opponent to make tricky decisions I.e. presenting multiple threats on the board at once. Not a lot of armies are gonna be able to deal with a buffed up blob of 20+ warriors as well as the SK in a single turn; then if they try to take that swing and miss, you're in a really good position to counter punch. Especially because you can use the stellar alignment strat to boost back up the SKs fighting potential if he does take a big hit
To be fair. There aren't a lot of units that don't fit this model. I expect every unit on the field to present a tricky decision. SK is comparable but actually easier to kill in shooting than a standard knight - far from invulnerable. Plus warriors and Knight lvl targets aren't drawing fire from each other. I about to try out a 2x Monolith SK list in my next game. The only problem. SK does nothing to the monoliths thanks to <core> So the the remaining points need to be all core units to get anything out of it.

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There's a reason that the most successful lists run so far mostly have TSK in them, and it's not that the people involved don't know how to play.
He's not mandatory or anything, but he's very good.

And he is much, much harder to kill via shooting than a standard knight (and vastly harder to kill via melee, obviously). Knights can't be obscured. TSK can. It's a game-changing difference that makes the model work.
   
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Not to mention hes technically 3 models, which means theres a pretty high chance theres wasted wounds somewhere.
If a Menhir drops to 1hp before the next Lascannon damage goes through and it rolls a 6, guarantee that player is gonna be salty as 5 damage just gotwasted.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Not to mention hes technically 3 models, which means theres a pretty high chance theres wasted wounds somewhere.
If a Menhir drops to 1hp before the next Lascannon damage goes through and it rolls a 6, guarantee that player is gonna be salty as 5 damage just gotwasted.

That will help a little - but this is where the real skill in 40k comes in. Shooting in the right order prevents waste. Example. Lascannon does 3 damage with your first shot. Now and overcharged plasma will ensure a kill on a 5 wound model without waste. It is a hurdle - but a small one at that. Easily overcome with strategy.

I'd really like to see the tables you guys paly on too. Not every piece you use should be 5" tall ruined buildings and walls. If you are doing that you really aren't playing the game right IMO. On the tables we are setting up at my club there are only a few places on the table you could obscure a model as wide as the silent king outside of turn 1 or right in the middle of the table where hed be doing approximately nothing.

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There is new cryptek on the 40k App page here: https://app.warhammer40000.com/subscriptions. Looks like a new technomancer, probably one with a control node.


stole the image from reddit btw.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/16 15:47:02


 
   
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Yeah, there is a discussion in the news and rumors thread, which is a better spot since this is the tactica.

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Has anyone tried the T.C'tan yet? If so, how is it? I can't work out if it's any good for the points and no idea when I'll be able to play another game
   
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Cynista wrote:
Has anyone tried the T.C'tan yet? If so, how is it? I can't work out if it's any good for the points and no idea when I'll be able to play another game


While they are cheaper, T. C'tan are just so much worse than the named shards that you are better off just finding another 75 points to play one of them. The major drawback that that unique powers are good, and you can only cast 1 power by default with the T. C'tan. Couple all the special rules each other shard gets, and it's just so much better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 14:53:38


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 Sasori wrote:
Yeah, there is a discussion in the news and rumors thread, which is a better spot since this is the tactica.


Can you link it bzcause i can't find the right thread in that big list

Btw is that model on the right side also new?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/20 16:57:14


 
   
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Krull wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
Yeah, there is a discussion in the news and rumors thread, which is a better spot since this is the tactica.


Can you link it bzcause i can't find the right thread in that big list

Btw is that model on the right side also new?


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3720/790474.page

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 Sasori wrote:
Cynista wrote:
Has anyone tried the T.C'tan yet? If so, how is it? I can't work out if it's any good for the points and no idea when I'll be able to play another game


While they are cheaper, T. C'tan are just so much worse than the named shards that you are better off just finding another 75 points to play one of them. The major drawback that that unique powers are good, and you can only cast 1 power by default with the T. C'tan. Couple all the special rules each other shard gets, and it's just so much better.
So, the Void Dragon had sold out in all the stores but I haven't seen it in any battle reports, even the fluffy one's only feature the Nightbringer.
   
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 Sasori wrote:
Cynista wrote:
Has anyone tried the T.C'tan yet? If so, how is it? I can't work out if it's any good for the points and no idea when I'll be able to play another game


While they are cheaper, T. C'tan are just so much worse than the named shards that you are better off just finding another 75 points to play one of them. The major drawback that that unique powers are good, and you can only cast 1 power by default with the T. C'tan. Couple all the special rules each other shard gets, and it's just so much better.

So I've heard this and pretty much took it as doctrine until I looked deeper and really starting thinking about it.
You can roll with 2 powers if you want. You can roll 2 random results and really only 1 of the results is not a good option.

In terms of spell power. Antimater meteror, cosmic fire, and sky of falling stars all fall within the same power level as the unique powers. The nightbringers ability while great is only 9 inch range (same as cosmic fire which actually has more upside). In terms of melee power the difference in 1 str is not likely to make much a difference and if it did - I would just pre select the +1 str and attack personality trait. The rest of the time I would just roll random and hope I don't get 1 of the 2 weaker results on the fractured personality.

Obviously the unique ones are better - just 75 points better? I dont think so. It is a pretty major difference. It is the difference of having a second cryptec or a backfield solo heavy destroyer. However I am not really sold on ether one. Fact is they just die to easy. Even with only 3 wounds per phase. Havn't tried it yet but the lower investment and versatility of the Tctan I think might give it the edge overall. At least for me.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
Cynista wrote:
Has anyone tried the T.C'tan yet? If so, how is it? I can't work out if it's any good for the points and no idea when I'll be able to play another game


While they are cheaper, T. C'tan are just so much worse than the named shards that you are better off just finding another 75 points to play one of them. The major drawback that that unique powers are good, and you can only cast 1 power by default with the T. C'tan. Couple all the special rules each other shard gets, and it's just so much better.

So I've heard this and pretty much took it as doctrine until I looked deeper and really starting thinking about it.
You can roll with 2 powers if you want. You can roll 2 random results and really only 1 of the results is not a good option.

In terms of spell power. Antimater meteror, cosmic fire, and sky of falling stars all fall within the same power level as the unique powers. The nightbringers ability while great is only 9 inch range (same as cosmic fire which actually has more upside). In terms of melee power the difference in 1 str is not likely to make much a difference and if it did - I would just pre select the +1 str and attack personality trait. The rest of the time I would just roll random and hope I don't get 1 of the 2 weaker results on the fractured personality.

Obviously the unique ones are better - just 75 points better? I dont think so. It is a pretty major difference. It is the difference of having a second cryptec or a backfield solo heavy destroyer. However I am not really sold on ether one. Fact is they just die to easy. Even with only 3 wounds per phase. Havn't tried it yet but the lower investment and versatility of the Tctan I think might give it the edge overall. At least for me.


They are absolutely 75 points better than the T.Ctan. The casting two powers is a significant power boost. You are also underselling Gaze. Gaze is powerful because it allows you to snipe characters, it's not comparable to Cosmic fire in that way. and yes, the +1 strength and attack make a large difference because of how the Nightbringers profile works. It means that he's wounding T7 on 2's with the big swing, which is rare and quite relevant.

But let's look at what you get for 75 points for The Void Dragon and Nightbringer.

Nightbringer:
+1 Base Strength +1 Attack
a 12 attack sweep attack or x2 Strength that ignores invulnerable saves
Cast 2 Powers
Ignores FnP and other rules on all melee attacks
Unique Power: Gaze of Death

That's a huge amount of abilities for 75 points, and even if you roll really well and get lucky, the T.Ctan still lags behind significantly.

Now the Void Dragon:
+1 Save
+3 Strength in Melee, with, more reliable damage against Vehicles
Spear Shooting attack which can snipe characters, and does more reliable damage vs Vehicles
2 Powers, including Voltaic Storm
Healing rule from Destroying Vehicles
Bonus Tail Blade attacks.

Again, we are talking some very significant bonus' that you are getting for the 75 points. The Void Dragon has better melee, better shooting and more powers. Even rolling well you are still going to be behind in melee power, and the +1 save is very relevant.

And the fact that we even have to throw in the caveat that they can only even become somewhat comparable is if you roll well, is setting yourself up for a bad time. You could end up with a T'Ctan that just performs poorly just as much as you can get one that performs better, but still not to the level of the Named ones. The only Named C'tan you could make the argument being not worth the 75 points is the Deceiver, and even then he has a very unique ability that you can't get and if you are bringing him, you are playing around that.






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The deceiver is essentially a t ctan that costs 80 points more for a pregame shuffle in your deployment zone. That is certainly not worth 75 points. His unique ability is okay but doesn't average any more average damage to a ld 8 target than most of the ctan abilities. He even loses out of ap-4 which is relevant flat 3(technically worse than d6 is more reliable).

To me he is a clear never pick. Save yourself 80 points and take the Tctan everytime over deceiver.

You already laid out really well the advantages the void and nightbringer have. Clearly the nightbringer is much better in melee - but only vs t6+ (basically vehicals which aren't only rare they are also much faster than ctans and aren't in melee with them unless they want to be) Custodians/ gravis/ harlequins. Ctan and void are pretty much equal except for the 3 additional 1 damage attacks (not really sweating that). Ofc this is all assuming you chose to take 2 powers on the tctan for your fractured personality.

More or less I can see the +80 points being worth it for the night bringer - it is worth what you get. IMO it is just not worth it at the end in your army comp. If they have a primarch level character night bringer is worth it for sure. If the strongest character they have is a primaris captain or harliquen troop master...it is not going to make a lick of difference and youd probably do better with more long range powers anyways.

Havnt tried the tctan yet but he is a lot easier to sneak into a list and will still have a big impact. I think it is wise to just pick the 2 powers personality and take slightly less melee for a -80 point price tag.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/21 19:08:34


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 wuestenfux wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Current competitive necron lists are ~50 warriors with the silent king, technomancer, chronomancer, ghost ark. In addition, some have spyders and scarabs, some have skorpekh lords and skorpekh destroyers.

Silent King can become a liability if the enemy is targeting him.
And then a large part of your army is gone. I'd stay away from him.



This might be good advice for a newer player but the silent king lists have made 2 or 3 first place finishes at tournaments overseas. I wouldn't just tell people to stay away from him just because you have to build around him. It obviously works.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
The deceiver is essentially a t ctan that costs 75 points more for a pregame shuffle in your deployment zone. That is certainly not worth 75 points. His unique ability is okay but doesn't average any more average damage to a ld 8 target than most of the ctan abilities. He even loses out of ap-4 which is relevant flat 3(technically worse than d6 is more reliable).

To me he is a clear never pick. Save yourself 75 points and take the Tctan everytime over deceiver.

You already laid out really well the advantages the void and nightbringer have. Clearly the nightbringer is much better in melee - but only vs t6+ (basically vehicals which aren't only rare they are also much faster than ctans and aren't in melee with them unless they want to be) Custodians/ gravis/ harlequins. Ctan and void are pretty much equal except for the 3 additional 1 damage attacks (not really sweating that). Ofc this is all assuming you chose to take 2 powers on the tctan for your fractured personality.

More or less I can see the +75 points being worth it for the night bringer - it is worth what you get. IMO it is just not worth it at the end in your army comp. If they have a primarch level character night bringer is worth it for sure. If the strongest character they have is a primaris captain or harliquen troop master...it is not going to make a lick of difference and youd probably do better with more long range powers anyways.

Havnt tried the tctan yet but he is a lot easier to sneak into a list and will still have a big impact. I think it is wise to just pick the 2 powers personality and take slightly less melee for a -75 point price tag.


You are glossing over a lot of details and underselling things here that are making a significant difference. For instance, the Nightbringer is not only better in melee vs T6. He has the sweep attacks and ignores Invulnerable saves and FNP saves. This is a huge distinction and makes him significantly better against Everything than a T.Ctan shard. You are also overselling the speed of vehicles. Most may be faster, but with the smaller board size, it's still relatively easy to get into melee with most vehicles.

The C'tan and Void are also not pretty much equal... The Void Dragon has +1 to his save, a shooting attack and +3 Strength for his melee attacks. Again, these are significant differences that you are underselling the impact of. That's not even factoring in the bonus' he gets to Vehicles. The Tailblades is a minor bonus, but there are significantly more distinctions between the two.

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 Sasori wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The deceiver is essentially a t ctan that costs 75 points more for a pregame shuffle in your deployment zone. That is certainly not worth 75 points. His unique ability is okay but doesn't average any more average damage to a ld 8 target than most of the ctan abilities. He even loses out of ap-4 which is relevant flat 3(technically worse than d6 is more reliable).

To me he is a clear never pick. Save yourself 75 points and take the Tctan everytime over deceiver.

You already laid out really well the advantages the void and nightbringer have. Clearly the nightbringer is much better in melee - but only vs t6+ (basically vehicals which aren't only rare they are also much faster than ctans and aren't in melee with them unless they want to be) Custodians/ gravis/ harlequins. Ctan and void are pretty much equal except for the 3 additional 1 damage attacks (not really sweating that). Ofc this is all assuming you chose to take 2 powers on the tctan for your fractured personality.

More or less I can see the +75 points being worth it for the night bringer - it is worth what you get. IMO it is just not worth it at the end in your army comp. If they have a primarch level character night bringer is worth it for sure. If the strongest character they have is a primaris captain or harliquen troop master...it is not going to make a lick of difference and youd probably do better with more long range powers anyways.

Havnt tried the tctan yet but he is a lot easier to sneak into a list and will still have a big impact. I think it is wise to just pick the 2 powers personality and take slightly less melee for a -75 point price tag.


You are glossing over a lot of details and underselling things here that are making a significant difference. For instance, the Nightbringer is not only better in melee vs T6. He has the sweep attacks and ignores Invulnerable saves and FNP saves. This is a huge distinction and makes him significantly better against Everything than a T.Ctan shard. You are also overselling the speed of vehicles. Most may be faster, but with the smaller board size, it's still relatively easy to get into melee with most vehicles.

The C'tan and Void are also not pretty much equal... The Void Dragon has +1 to his save, a shooting attack and +3 Strength for his melee attacks. Again, these are significant differences that you are underselling the impact of. That's not even factoring in the bonus' he gets to Vehicles. The Tailblades is a minor bonus, but there are significantly more distinctions between the two.
I am not glossing over. Just assuming you are going to spend 2 cp for ignore invune saves if you need it. Can't ignore the FNP like night bringer. however if you are dropping 3ish d6 damage on a unit with ap-4 no saves. You are going to annihilate them regardless more often than not. It can get expensive but You only pay it once you are in there and probably winning. Where as nightbringer prepays in raw points for this ability whether you are blown up or not. I've already conceded the nightbringer has very good abilities. Why even mention +1 to save though? It is irrelevant.

The powers are roughly equal in their damage output. +1 to wound in melee (sometimes) with 3 trash attacks and a 12" lascannon and a situational healing ability isn't worth +75 points. It's worth maybe 30-40.
The night bringer get his worth in value and then some probably for +75. However he is still 9 W with many army capable of killing him in 2 turns before he gets significant damage off.
Deceiver is just bad.

Also IMO - the transcended is also a bit overcosted. Though it is difficult to price the necrodermis value. I've found it pretty easy to play against myself though. You ether have the tools to deal with it and you remove a 350 point model pretty easy and your opponent is really sad. Or you don't and just ignore it until you can't anymore. I find the real issue with the Ctan is their limited movement. They are very easy to avoid and clog up.

Correction - 80 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/21 19:09:10


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And what are the powers you take with the nightbringer?
I lean towards the thunderbolt


Descent range, pretty reliable and giving an other unit 1 MW is just bonus.
The others seem less to me.
   
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Sky of falling stars or antimatter meteor. Then I'd trade for cosmic fire once you get into optimal range.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The deceiver is essentially a t ctan that costs 75 points more for a pregame shuffle in your deployment zone. That is certainly not worth 75 points. His unique ability is okay but doesn't average any more average damage to a ld 8 target than most of the ctan abilities. He even loses out of ap-4 which is relevant flat 3(technically worse than d6 is more reliable).

To me he is a clear never pick. Save yourself 75 points and take the Tctan everytime over deceiver.

You already laid out really well the advantages the void and nightbringer have. Clearly the nightbringer is much better in melee - but only vs t6+ (basically vehicals which aren't only rare they are also much faster than ctans and aren't in melee with them unless they want to be) Custodians/ gravis/ harlequins. Ctan and void are pretty much equal except for the 3 additional 1 damage attacks (not really sweating that). Ofc this is all assuming you chose to take 2 powers on the tctan for your fractured personality.

More or less I can see the +75 points being worth it for the night bringer - it is worth what you get. IMO it is just not worth it at the end in your army comp. If they have a primarch level character night bringer is worth it for sure. If the strongest character they have is a primaris captain or harliquen troop master...it is not going to make a lick of difference and youd probably do better with more long range powers anyways.

Havnt tried the tctan yet but he is a lot easier to sneak into a list and will still have a big impact. I think it is wise to just pick the 2 powers personality and take slightly less melee for a -75 point price tag.


You are glossing over a lot of details and underselling things here that are making a significant difference. For instance, the Nightbringer is not only better in melee vs T6. He has the sweep attacks and ignores Invulnerable saves and FNP saves. This is a huge distinction and makes him significantly better against Everything than a T.Ctan shard. You are also overselling the speed of vehicles. Most may be faster, but with the smaller board size, it's still relatively easy to get into melee with most vehicles.

The C'tan and Void are also not pretty much equal... The Void Dragon has +1 to his save, a shooting attack and +3 Strength for his melee attacks. Again, these are significant differences that you are underselling the impact of. That's not even factoring in the bonus' he gets to Vehicles. The Tailblades is a minor bonus, but there are significantly more distinctions between the two.
I am not glossing over. Just assuming you are going to spend 2 cp for ignore invune saves if you need it. Can't ignore the FNP like night bringer. however if you are dropping 3ish d6 damage on a unit with ap-4 no saves. You are going to annihilate them regardless more often than not. It can get expensive but You only pay it once you are in there and probably winning. Where as nightbringer prepays in raw points for this ability whether you are blown up or not. I've already conceded the nightbringer has very good abilities. Why even mention +1 to save though? It is irrelevant.

The powers are roughly equal in their damage output. +1 to wound in melee (sometimes) with 3 trash attacks and a 12" lascannon and a situational healing ability isn't worth +75 points. It's worth maybe 30-40.
The night bringer get his worth in value and then some probably for +75. However he is still 9 W with many army capable of killing him in 2 turns before he gets significant damage off.
Deceiver is just bad.

Also IMO - the transcended is also a bit overcosted. Though it is difficult to price the necrodermis value. I've found it pretty easy to play against myself though. You ether have the tools to deal with it and you remove a 350 point model pretty easy and your opponent is really sad. Or you don't and just ignore it until you can't anymore. I find the real issue with the Ctan is their limited movement. They are very easy to avoid and clog up.

Correction - 80 points.


Again, you are underselling the Void Dragon's abilities. Wounding T4 on a 2+ and T6-T8 on a 3+ is a large swing, and these are not "Trash" attacks, They're D6 damage. The Spear shooting attack is not a Lascannon in any form. You can the spear to snipe characters, and hit multiple units. Finally, there is still plenty of AP 0 shooting in the game, the save is still relevant. You get all of this and then the bonus' vs vehicles tacked on, it is well worth the 75 points.

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All the hate for The Deceiver’s rules makes me sad because he has been my absolutely favorite character in the Lore for a long time. Also sad that they vastly diminished him in the lore too...

 
   
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Been Around the Block




 Sasori wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The deceiver is essentially a t ctan that costs 75 points more for a pregame shuffle in your deployment zone. That is certainly not worth 75 points. His unique ability is okay but doesn't average any more average damage to a ld 8 target than most of the ctan abilities. He even loses out of ap-4 which is relevant flat 3(technically worse than d6 is more reliable).

To me he is a clear never pick. Save yourself 75 points and take the Tctan everytime over deceiver.

You already laid out really well the advantages the void and nightbringer have. Clearly the nightbringer is much better in melee - but only vs t6+ (basically vehicals which aren't only rare they are also much faster than ctans and aren't in melee with them unless they want to be) Custodians/ gravis/ harlequins. Ctan and void are pretty much equal except for the 3 additional 1 damage attacks (not really sweating that). Ofc this is all assuming you chose to take 2 powers on the tctan for your fractured personality.

More or less I can see the +75 points being worth it for the night bringer - it is worth what you get. IMO it is just not worth it at the end in your army comp. If they have a primarch level character night bringer is worth it for sure. If the strongest character they have is a primaris captain or harliquen troop master...it is not going to make a lick of difference and youd probably do better with more long range powers anyways.

Havnt tried the tctan yet but he is a lot easier to sneak into a list and will still have a big impact. I think it is wise to just pick the 2 powers personality and take slightly less melee for a -75 point price tag.


You are glossing over a lot of details and underselling things here that are making a significant difference. For instance, the Nightbringer is not only better in melee vs T6. He has the sweep attacks and ignores Invulnerable saves and FNP saves. This is a huge distinction and makes him significantly better against Everything than a T.Ctan shard. You are also overselling the speed of vehicles. Most may be faster, but with the smaller board size, it's still relatively easy to get into melee with most vehicles.

The C'tan and Void are also not pretty much equal... The Void Dragon has +1 to his save, a shooting attack and +3 Strength for his melee attacks. Again, these are significant differences that you are underselling the impact of. That's not even factoring in the bonus' he gets to Vehicles. The Tailblades is a minor bonus, but there are significantly more distinctions between the two.
I am not glossing over. Just assuming you are going to spend 2 cp for ignore invune saves if you need it. Can't ignore the FNP like night bringer. however if you are dropping 3ish d6 damage on a unit with ap-4 no saves. You are going to annihilate them regardless more often than not. It can get expensive but You only pay it once you are in there and probably winning. Where as nightbringer prepays in raw points for this ability whether you are blown up or not. I've already conceded the nightbringer has very good abilities. Why even mention +1 to save though? It is irrelevant.

The powers are roughly equal in their damage output. +1 to wound in melee (sometimes) with 3 trash attacks and a 12" lascannon and a situational healing ability isn't worth +75 points. It's worth maybe 30-40.
The night bringer get his worth in value and then some probably for +75. However he is still 9 W with many army capable of killing him in 2 turns before he gets significant damage off.
Deceiver is just bad.

Also IMO - the transcended is also a bit overcosted. Though it is difficult to price the necrodermis value. I've found it pretty easy to play against myself though. You ether have the tools to deal with it and you remove a 350 point model pretty easy and your opponent is really sad. Or you don't and just ignore it until you can't anymore. I find the real issue with the Ctan is their limited movement. They are very easy to avoid and clog up.

Correction - 80 points.


Again, you are underselling the Void Dragon's abilities. Wounding T4 on a 2+ and T6-T8 on a 3+ is a large swing, and these are not "Trash" attacks, They're D6 damage. The Spear shooting attack is not a Lascannon in any form. You can the spear to snipe characters, and hit multiple units. Finally, there is still plenty of AP 0 shooting in the game, the save is still relevant. You get all of this and then the bonus' vs vehicles tacked on, it is well worth the 75 points.


You guys make some interesting and valid points for sure, IMO whether they're worth the points difference or not depends on the role the units have in your army. Really simplified and boiled down to their purest forms, the void dragon is better at killing vehicles, the nightbringer is better at killing characters, while the c'tan fields a more universal role. For the points, I actually think its easier to get value out of the c'tan, you certainly don't have to build around it as much to get maximum value out of it.

For example, I don't really care if the c'tan gets bogged down by a unit of ork boyz, it's gonna do good damage to them, and be a pain to deal with in return; but I'd be more annoyed if the same thing happened to the nightbringer while Ghaz was stood there laughing you know. Don't get me wrong, for 80pts extra I certainly think you get a better profile for the void and nightbringer, I just think its trickier to maximise their efficiency.

   
 
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