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How do you feel about the State of 40k?
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Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Kitane wrote:
2013-2015 was the last time Nids have seen new kits and after looking a bit for their prices at the time, they were already at levels of the 2021 releases like Heavy Intercessors. Or even worse in some cases.

2015 prices

$51 for three Tyranid Warriors
$70 for three Hive Guards
$63 for Zoanthropes/Venomthropes
$80 for Harpy/Crone
$73 for Maleceptor/Toxicrene
$63 for Tyrannocyte/Sporocyst


(I found the prices in USD on a older blog post from 2015)


Yep, and the Haruspex/Exocrine from the release right before this one has the same issue. And of course, crap like Pyrovores costing almost $40 for 25 points of stuff. I've long been an advocate of Nids getting trumped up rules to equalize their trumped up prices, but mostly GW makes things usable by bargain-basementing them in terms of points (or just making them not useful at all, like most of those expensive monsters.)
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Yet GW did not get back to the "from Gamers for Gamers" stuff that was there before Kirby took over


Honestly, "for gamers by gamers" died with second ed. You still had some elements of it in White Dwarf, but even that didn't make it much past fourth. For the game itself? I feel like they're closer to that ideal than they've been since maybe early 5th? It will never go back to what it was in RT days where it truly was "by gamers for gamers", but the sales/corporate offices had been slowly taking over for years, with 7th being the ultimate culmination of that take over (being fully "sales lead" rather than "design lead").

But yeah, "for gamers by gamers" hasn't been a thing since I was a kid. A long time ago. In a galaxy far far away ...



Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

basically since Kirby bought in an needed to make money fast to pay back his loan

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 kodos wrote:
basically since Kirby bought in an needed to make money fast to pay back his loan

Going to say that's been paid off for years. Being publicly traded means that the company focuses on profit margins over all else. These margins are fixed above cost and when anything bumps costs (say adding a new sprue to a kit, or Brexit) then GW will adjust the price so they maintain the same profit margin. And yes, I think their margin is too high as the amount of product they move could allow them to continue making record profits with a lower margin (in fact one could argue they'd sell even more with a lower margin due to the better price point). And it doesn't help that despite all these price increases it doesn't seem GW is passing the increased profits onto their employees with permenant wage increases, merely a single company wide bonus that was likely a PR move as much as it was a way to adjust how much they'd owe in taxes.

It seems the biggest change that came with Roundtree's take over was in the middle management levels which may be where most of the problems we were seeing come from, but it hasn't changed the fundamental problems that the pricing of the company falls into.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

TBH those problems are less with GW specifically and more with Capitalysm.

You can see all the stuff we blame unto GW done by nearly all big videogame companies for example.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Galas wrote:
TBH those problems are less with GW specifically and more with Capitalysm.


Why?

It wasn't like it was non-capitalist in the pre-Kirby era.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Small company with pro-consumer policies goes to be publicy traded and then starts becoming more and more predatory in their business practices is the go to for all business that grow to be large enough for that.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Very Negative. 8th edition started the unwinding of depth of play in favor of layer upon layer of complexity.

You can see the the utter path of ridiculousness since 8th

Arbitrary targeting rules. 2w marines. T5 orks. Its just going to keep going and going.

10th ed 5w marines and d3 damage bolters? At this rate, count on it.
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 Galas wrote:
Small company with pro-consumer policies goes to be publicy traded and then starts becoming more and more predatory in their business practices is the go to for all business that grow to be large enough for that.


Yep, happens to every significantly large enterprise. Look at Google, they took 'Don't Be Evil' out of their motto and haven't looked back. Nestle started out as a couple of swedes making chocolate and babyfood, now it's the single most ecologically and socioeconomically devastating organization in the western world outside of the U.S. Military.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Tycho wrote:


They have added a good chunk of the web team and have expanded marketing and community outreach. They hired Mike Brandt (apologies I may have that last name misspelled - I ALWAYS misspell it) and several others to similar new positions. They hired a good grouping of people moving into 8th and again into 9th. True, they also moved around a lot of folks who were already in the company, but they got moved in to new departments. Do you honestly think a company can go from no website (other than the store site), no social media, no community outreach or digital presence at all for nearly a decade to having everything they have running now without some fundamental shifts and new people?



Okay, I'll give you the fact that they hired people since they had literally no web presence. But why should I care that GW hired a bunch of marketers who are (frankly) terrible at *good* marketing, relying on cheap clickbait and hype tricks? None of that makes the game better and it's 100% to Unit's point.


The only people who think there's a difference between good marketing and clickbait/hype tricks are marketers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 16:43:16



 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW marketing has mostly been to make YouTube players happy and let them do the work for them.
Most of the other big marketing done has been other companies promoting the brand.
I don’t even think they do good click bait or hype tricks.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




ERJAK 798472 11153405 wrote:Yep, happens to every significantly large enterprise. Look at Google, they took 'Don't Be Evil' out of their motto and haven't looked back. Nestle started out as a couple of swedes making chocolate and babyfood, now it's the single most ecologically and socioeconomically devastating organization in the western world outside of the U.S. Military.


As someone who lives in a rural area, I say that Du Pont and Bayer are a lot worse.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Personally, I'd like to see more nerfs for some of the stronger factions. If we accept that the lethality of certain factions/units is intended (just like the durability of others) then let's bump up the points costs again as the efficiency of some units/factions is absolutely insane atm. I personally don't think after reviewing some games that the Raider nerf was enough for example, so let's increase the points again. That is just a drop in the ocean really in terms of required point increases for many units in many factions, but an example all the same.

Anyway... Let's all agree that space marines are already lagging from the common symptom of being the first codex, in that it is now been creeped out of viability slowly. To bring them back up-to scratch, would you at this point re-introduce some of the nerfs that occurred post 8th edition marine dex 2.0?

Would you allow all vehicles to have bolter discipline again? Would you expand the doctrines or bring them back to the original, so you can have multiple turns in dev and choosing when to move doctrine? (I personally believe they should be tweaked anyway, and you should be allowed to delay the start of dev doctrine till turn 2 due to how useless it tends to be on mass LOS blocking boards, but that is an alternative option), would you let all deathwatch bolters have SIA? What point increases if any would you suggest for this?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 08:18:40


My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
...

Anyway... Let's all agree that space marines are already lagging from the common symptom of being the first codex, in that it is now been creeped out of viability slowly. To bring them back up-to scratch, would you at this point re-introduce some of the nerfs that occurred post 8th edition marine dex 2.0?

Would you allow all vehicles to have bolter discipline again? Would you expand the doctrines or bring them back to the original, so you can have multiple turns in dev and choosing when to move doctrine? (I personally believe they should be tweaked anyway, and you should be allowed to delay the start of dev doctrine till turn 2 due to how useless it tends to be on mass LOS blocking boards, but that is an alternative option), would you let all deathwatch bolters have SIA? What point increases if any would you suggest for this?


Necrons are definitely suffering from the first codex syndrome and could use some buffs, Marines are in far better shape than the remaining 8th edition codexes, so those should be done first. The next year after everything is out? Absolutely.

The devastator doctrine could be optionally up for another turn. Bolter discipline...meh, I hate that rule, it has such a drastic impact on the board lethality. I'd rather see it changed to advance and still rapid-fire as usual than to simply double their lethality at 30". Then it could be given back to all vehicles.

   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Still 15 codices left to be updated to 9th, plus 6-7 marine supplements (Ultra, IH, IF, RG, Sallies, WS and maybe Black Templars).
With one per month, we'll be in late 2022 or 2023 before the SM codex can be updated to a 2.0 version.

Then 10th ed comes out


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see more nerfs for some of the stronger factions. If we accept that the lethality of certain factions/units is intended (just like the durability of others) then let's bump up the points costs again as the efficiency of some units/factions is absolutely insane atm. I personally don't think after reviewing some games that the Raider nerf was enough for example, so let's increase the points again. That is just a drop in the ocean really in terms of required point increases for many units in many factions, but an example all the same.

Anyway... Let's all agree that space marines are already lagging from the common symptom of being the first codex, in that it is now been creeped out of viability slowly. To bring them back up-to scratch, would you at this point re-introduce some of the nerfs that occurred post 8th edition marine dex 2.0?

Would you allow all vehicles to have bolter discipline again? Would you expand the doctrines or bring them back to the original, so you can have multiple turns in dev and choosing when to move doctrine? (I personally believe they should be tweaked anyway, and you should be allowed to delay the start of dev doctrine till turn 2 due to how useless it tends to be on mass LOS blocking boards, but that is an alternative option), would you let all deathwatch bolters have SIA? What point increases if any would you suggest for this?

No. Loyalists can have their second look after everyone else has been updated to 9th edition codexes. They've already had more than enough attention.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Oh I'm not suggesting a whole new codex, just a FAQ/update.

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No. Loyalists can have their second look after everyone else has been updated to 9th edition codexes. They've already had more than enough attention.


You are allowed to think that. I would rather have not my loyalist be the last codex updated in 9th ed cycle of updates. I think that DW or various Fist players would want to see an update sooner or later too. Specially BT who didn't get a codex of their own.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Karol wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No. Loyalists can have their second look after everyone else has been updated to 9th edition codexes. They've already had more than enough attention.


You are allowed to think that. I would rather have not my loyalist be the last codex updated in 9th ed cycle of updates. I think that DW or various Fist players would want to see an update sooner or later too. Specially BT who didn't get a codex of their own.

Obviously I wasn't referring to Grey Knights. You guys are currently tied with CSM for the title of "Oldest Codex in the Game". The Fists and Templars received their update with the 9th edition loyalist codex. A lot of other factions are needing an update WAY more than them.
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Kitane wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
...

Anyway... Let's all agree that space marines are already lagging from the common symptom of being the first codex, in that it is now been creeped out of viability slowly. To bring them back up-to scratch, would you at this point re-introduce some of the nerfs that occurred post 8th edition marine dex 2.0?

Would you allow all vehicles to have bolter discipline again? Would you expand the doctrines or bring them back to the original, so you can have multiple turns in dev and choosing when to move doctrine? (I personally believe they should be tweaked anyway, and you should be allowed to delay the start of dev doctrine till turn 2 due to how useless it tends to be on mass LOS blocking boards, but that is an alternative option), would you let all deathwatch bolters have SIA? What point increases if any would you suggest for this?


Necrons are definitely suffering from the first codex syndrome and could use some buffs, Marines are in far better shape than the remaining 8th edition codexes, so those should be done first. The next year after everything is out? Absolutely.

The devastator doctrine could be optionally up for another turn. Bolter discipline...meh, I hate that rule, it has such a drastic impact on the board lethality. I'd rather see it changed to advance and still rapid-fire as usual than to simply double their lethality at 30". Then it could be given back to all vehicles.



This is deeply saddening as an army whose 9th edition codex is worse than their 8th edition codex.


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







ERJAK wrote:
...This is deeply saddening as an army whose 9th edition codex is worse than their 8th edition codex.


When you get one of the most broken Codexes in the history of the game your next edition book is going to contain some nerfs, yeah. 8e Craftworlders (or 4e Craftworlders for that matter), 7e Grey Knights, 4e CSM...

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





ERJAK wrote:


The only people who think there's a difference between good marketing and clickbait/hype tricks are marketers.


Marketing is a pretty big umbrella. But I guess that's true in the same sense that all lawyers are crooks, all therapists are crazies, etc. etc (i.e. not true). There's a lot of daylight between being a marketer for, I dunno, Pfizer, and a clickbaitmonger for GW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 19:05:40


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nid warriors are an absolute joke at this point, like Eldar Aspect Warriors.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Tycho wrote:

Kirby era defined as:


Think you are missing a big and revolutionary change. Finding out what people want to buy and selling it to them. Specialist games? Rather than a threat to margin they are another diversified revenue stream that undercuts competitors. And so on.
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Specialist games? Rather than a threat to margin they are another diversified revenue stream that undercuts competitors. And so on.
not only a threat to margin but the source of nearly going bankrupt
SG were produced for all markets without knowing how much are going to be sold in different and not all of them were equal popular in the different countries.
Having everything translated was a big investment with GW ending up that boxes were sold out in one country but not selling at all in another (and could not be sold in another because the language did not fit)

lot of things that are now "normal" are direct results of this (also the way how they brought them back)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 kodos wrote:
not only a threat to margin but the source of nearly going bankrupt
SG were produced for all markets without knowing how much are going to be sold in different and not all of them were equal popular in the different countries.
Having everything translated was a big investment with GW ending up that boxes were sold out in one country but not selling at all in another (and could not be sold in another because the language did not fit)

lot of things that are now "normal" are direct results of this (also the way how they brought them back)
If you're referring to the Gorkamorka incident, that was't quite "Specialist". That moniker came later, and involved lots of short magazines that go for decent prices on eBay now.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 kodos wrote:
not only a threat to margin but the source of nearly going bankrupt
SG were produced for all markets without knowing how much are going to be sold in different and not all of them were equal popular in the different countries.
Having everything translated was a big investment with GW ending up that boxes were sold out in one country but not selling at all in another (and could not be sold in another because the language did not fit)

lot of things that are now "normal" are direct results of this (also the way how they brought them back)
If you're referring to the Gorkamorka incident, that was't quite "Specialist". That moniker came later, and involved lots of short magazines that go for decent prices on eBay now.


He might be referring to Space Hulk 2nd ed as well. When I first got into this hobby there were tons and tons of Italian copies of it in a book/art/odds and ends tat shop called The Works for really cheap (like £10 a box cheap). I got 2 of them myself just for the minis.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tycho wrote:
Yeah - those two eras seem pretty identical to me .....


Yes. I don't think the "New Games Workshop" is perfect - but they are trying.

I'd define the Kirby Era by a seemingly clear hostility towards their main customers and essentially zero interest in any of their games as a game.

The fact GW's product sells out immediately and so they keep raising the prices is just good business. If lots of people will buy Heavy Intercessors for near £40, there isn't much point giving them away at £25.. to then be sold at £40 on ebay etc.

I'm sure its not fair to the respective people - but to my mind the changing of the guard occurred with the utter failure of the 2015 AoS launch (technically after Kirby stepped down, but presumably already in train) - and then the giddy success that was the release of the Deathwatch Overkill box about a year later.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 11:33:34


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

All I was trying to point out is that if someone is rotten at their core, as a character, but they show up to the next party in a velvet suit and porcelain mask (whereas before they showed up in a T-shirt and jeans if they bothered at all), that doesn't mean they're suddenly a new person, worthy of praise and their past actions forgotten.

Yes, they spent money on the velvet suit and porcelain mask. They may even be trying - but it's a token effort compared to other, somewhat more expensive and time-consuming ways of actually becoming a better person.

The analogy is a bit flat, but essentially my argument is that GW is more "customer-facing" now, so they can put positive spins on things and have some control of the narrative, but they aren't actually meaningfully different at a fundamental level. This isn't a "new era"., some glorious revolution that has shaken GW to its very roots and rebuilt it from the ground up.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Tyel wrote:
Tycho wrote:
Yeah - those two eras seem pretty identical to me .....


Yes. I don't think the "New Games Workshop" is perfect - but they are trying.

I'd define the Kirby Era by a seemingly clear hostility towards their main customers and essentially zero interest in any of their games as a game.

The fact GW's product sells out immediately and so they keep raising the prices is just good business. If lots of people will buy Heavy Intercessors for near £40, there isn't much point giving them away at £25.. to then be sold at £40 on ebay etc.

I'm sure its not fair to the respective people - but to my mind the changing of the guard occurred with the utter failure of the 2015 AoS launch (technically after Kirby stepped down, but presumably already in train) - and then the giddy success that was the release of the Deathwatch Overkill box about a year later.


They're working on appearing as if they're trying, but the problems with 8th/9th (shoddy balance, poorly-written rules, massive power creep, dead units/dead Codexes, wildly uneven minis releases) are the exact same problems we had in 7th, and they're happening for the exact same reasons (minis-team led design, a release model where they update a whole army's rules all at once and don't touch them for years afterward, faction bloat, lack of editing/playtesting, a design team that doesn't understand how people play their game).

To me GW "trying to be better" in 8th/9th is actively making the game worse, since instead of trying to fix the problems they're trying to give everyone as many rules as the Space Marines (thereby giving themselves more rules to not quite get around to testing and way more opportunities to throw the game wildly out of whack), shove out Codexes as fast as possible (which means they don't get to see what the effects of the last book they threw into the wild untested were before writing the next one, so any attempt to fix any problems is several books behind), and claiming their dartboard of points changes is somehow the result of an honest effort to balance the game instead of a poorly-disguised effort to give 40k's rules a "subscription model" (which isn't true).

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Tyel wrote:
The fact GW's product sells out immediately and so they keep raising the prices is just good business. If lots of people will buy Heavy Intercessors for near £40, there isn't much point giving them away at £25.. to then be sold at £40 on ebay etc.


If 'new GW' doesn't deserve criticism for continuing the trend of extremely high prices because it's just business, then surely they don't deserve praise for implementing previews, interacting on social media, or other positive changes because those are business-driven as well?

   
 
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