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My list gained about 30% effectiveness at killing Marines, with the loss of AoC. In some cases, its even more.

Marine vehicles, for example, are a lot more vulnerable now, up to 100% more in a lot of cases versus anti-tank weapons.

Storm Shields are good, but most of the units with those (excluding SW and WS) won't be hitting me until mid-game and I find that marine Storm Shield units are still a bit weak in melee and are just horribly slow.

Massed S4 fire also hurts them proportionally more, as well.

Remember, I'm building around Tzeentch Legionnaires, with -1 AP or -2 AP Boltguns, shooting twice, rerolling hits and wounds. I've lost nothing in firepower, gained another reliable shooting platform and am significantly better at killing marines than I was before. Ditto for Rubrics, with AP -2.

The marines would need to be playing with about 600-700 more points of marine bodies than me to make that difference up, not 300-400 points of free wargear.

In terms of resilience, the 4++ power is what gets the Legionnaires back to the old AoC break point. Its the only weak unit in the list, but that power mitigates it somewhat and its a bit easier to cast with a Venomcrawler nearby. The Terminators are still unkillable. The War Dog is another unit that can't be ignored, but is not efficient to shoot. And then there's Abaddon, who can just fold up an entire flank on his own.

I gained more threat saturation and proportionally more efficiency versus the army that is set to become the new Meta.

All-in-all I think CSM will be OK, but that's just my initial thoughts.

Interesting posts Samii, with some of what you are saying able to cross over to TSons too.

H.B.M.C. look away now:

Samii wrote:
Marine vehicles, for example, are a lot more vulnerable now, up to 100% more in a lot of cases versus anti-tank weapons.

That doesn't sound right. Damage doubling from armour save drop happens when 2+ goes to 3+ but what anti tank weapons left marines with 2+ save with AOC that now goes to 3+?

tneva82 wrote:

Samii wrote:
Marine vehicles, for example, are a lot more vulnerable now, up to 100% more in a lot of cases versus anti-tank weapons.

That doesn't sound right. Damage doubling from armour save drop happens when 2+ goes to 3+ but what anti tank weapons left marines with 2+ save with AOC that now goes to 3+?

Lord Discordant or other 2+ model with Gorget of Eternal Hate against an AP-2 weapon?

Well apart from loyal marines not having those I wouldn't classify most AP-2 weapons as anti tank weapons to begin with.

And rather edge case.

Sounds more like he had math error in 5+ to 6+ being 100% increase(by halving succesfull saves)

Samii wrote:
5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.

Blessing: Warptime has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select one friendly <LEGION> INFANTRY or <LEGION> CHAOS SPAWN unit within 6" of this PSYKER.

That unit can make a Normal Move (if that unit Advanced in your previous Movement phase, it still counts as having Advanced this turn).
Until the end of the turn, that unit is not eligible to declare a charge.


Is there a trick I'm not aware of that lets you get around that limitation?

Took me a second read of it to parse it. They are saying:
Turn one advance + warp time for 12 + d6".
Turn two advance + strat + charge for 6 + 3d6".

Maybe my maths is off but 5+ to 6+ is a difference of double the wounds taken? So + 100% more? Its the same break as 2+ to 3+.

Specifically I'm thinking of AP -3 weapons.

12 wounds saved at at 5+ is 4, 12 wounds saved at 6+ is 2. So double, or +100% more.

P.S. Yes to the Warp Time Abaddon, you do that first, then advance and charge next turn.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:
Maybe my maths is off but 5+ to 6+ is a difference of double the wounds taken? So + 100% more? Its the same break as 2+ to 3+.

Specifically I'm thinking of AP -3 weapons.

12 wounds saved at at 5+ is 4, 12 wounds saved at 6+ is 2. So double, or +100% more.

P.S. Yes to the Warp Time Abaddon, you do that first, then advance and charge next turn.

Best,
Samii.

Not even close.

If you take 6 wounds and save on a 2+, you take one point of damage. Drop to a 3+ and it doubles to two points.
Same deal, but 5+ means you take four damage. 6+ means you take five-an increase of 25%.

Samii wrote:
Maybe my maths is off but 5+ to 6+ is a difference of double the wounds taken? So + 100% more? Its the same break as 2+ to 3+.

You go from doing 4 wounds out of 6(rolls of 1, 2, 3 and 4) to 5 wounds out of 6(1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

That's 25% increase.

100% increase is going from 2+(1 out of 6) to 3+(2 out of 6. 2 is twice of 1).

You halve number of succesfull saves but as you don't save much it doesn't matter much.

For 3+ to double damage you need -2.

For 4+ to double you need -3.

For 5+ or worse you can't double with AP. Best you can do is 50% increase the damage output(5+ save) or 20% increase(6+) by negating save entirely.

Samii wrote:
Hi all.

I was interested to see the differences with Arks of Omen and dataslate/munitorum.

My old Black Legion list, the one I posted a while back, was undefeated in Nephilim. Sometimes with big wins 90+ to about 40 against Tyranids, Votann, new AM, Quins etc.

So I've tried a few speculative tests with the info from WC and the dataslate/munitorum. In short the list is even better now.

I've replaced the Pod with a Dreadblade War Dog Brigand with MOTDM and the Daemonic Surge trait. Other than that list is basically the same, as Legionnaires are cheaper and I dropped Marks on Contemptor, Apostle and Havocs.

My thoughts RE the changes:

1) Secondaries look good from what I hear. When scoring isn't an issue, having better Secondaries gives an army room to breathe. Cultists will still win games based on their tertiary actions, screening and Banners.

2) Rubrics with Warp Time are as good as pre-nerf Flamers. The OW makes them a problem. I can see Plague Marines as a viable alternative, but Rubrics will shine more now that Marines lost AoC and will be the new Meta.

3) AoC isn't as big of a deal. With the 4++ Tzeentch power and cover you retain roughly the same survivability on the basic Marine units. Terminators never relied on AoC to be unkillable and they still present a bigger problem than the Loyalist equivalent, when they can be charged on Turn 1 and can shoot/clear chaff off objectives.

4) The War Dog, is the icing on the cake. I don't lose command points to take it, assuming we're the same as IK. In addition to the Terminators it is potentially a Transhit, Transhuman, 4++ shooting platform that can get back up on death, is Objective Secured and provides very efficient firepower to an army that lacks it.

5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.

There's ways around the loss of AoC and my shooting got better, it gained about 30% efficiency versus Marines, Sisters and AM. Nids, Tau, Quins and Votann all got heavily nerfed with points increases.

In fairness while Marines did drop in points, I can't see a marine list that gives more than 300-400 points from those changes and my army is now even more efficient at killing them, than they me.

Best,
Samii.

CK as dreadblade can't take the infernal table. Not even with the special dreadblade faction that give you access to that tabme as it's an exception

Woops

I phrased it wrong. 5+ to 6+ is 100% more saves, not 100% more wounds.

Also RE the Dreadblade and the Daemonic Surge trait: that only applies to the second bullet point (the 4+++ against mortals) I'm pretty sure?

Best,
Samii.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sometimes when I write the points get a bit jumbled in the overall message, so I thought I would try to write it down a bit clearer and get the numbers right this time .

My list has a lot of AP -1 and AP -2 bolter, or equivalent, fire.

AP -1 got 100% better at killing marines in cover and 33% better at killing marines in the open. Ditto for vehicles, which almost never get cover.

AP -2 got 33% better at killing marines in cover and 25% better at killing marines in the open. Ditto for vehicles, which almost never get cover.

AP -3 got 20% better at killing marine vehicles, but marine vehicles were fragile, even with AoC, are still expensive and die faster on account of the above.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:
Hi all.

I was interested to see the differences with Arks of Omen and dataslate/munitorum.

My old Black Legion list, the one I posted a while back, was undefeated in Nephilim. Sometimes with big wins 90+ to about 40 against Tyranids, Votann, new AM, Quins etc.

So I've tried a few speculative tests with the info from WC and the dataslate/munitorum. In short the list is even better now.

I've replaced the Pod with a Dreadblade War Dog Brigand with MOTDM and the Daemonic Surge trait. Other than that list is basically the same, as Legionnaires are cheaper and I dropped Marks on Contemptor, Apostle and Havocs.

My thoughts RE the changes:

1) Secondaries look good from what I hear. When scoring isn't an issue, having better Secondaries gives an army room to breathe. Cultists will still win games based on their tertiary actions, screening and Banners.

2) Rubrics with Warp Time are as good as pre-nerf Flamers. The OW makes them a problem. I can see Plague Marines as a viable alternative, but Rubrics will shine more now that Marines lost AoC and will be the new Meta.

3) AoC isn't as big of a deal. With the 4++ Tzeentch power and cover you retain roughly the same survivability on the basic Marine units. Terminators never relied on AoC to be unkillable and they still present a bigger problem than the Loyalist equivalent, when they can be charged on Turn 1 and can shoot/clear chaff off objectives.

4) The War Dog, is the icing on the cake. I don't lose command points to take it, assuming we're the same as IK. In addition to the Terminators it is potentially a Transhit, Transhuman, 4++ shooting platform that can get back up on death, is Objective Secured and provides very efficient firepower to an army that lacks it.

5) Abaddon in BL is bonkers, being able to heal him, Warp Time and advance and charge makes him still worth the points.

There's ways around the loss of AoC and my shooting got better, it gained about 30% efficiency versus Marines, Sisters and AM. Nids, Tau, Quins and Votann all got heavily nerfed with points increases.

In fairness while Marines did drop in points, I can't see a marine list that gives more than 300-400 points from those changes and my army is now even more efficient at killing them, than they me.

Best,

Samii.

What is MOTDM?
Am I right that master of possession can revive a wardog at the moment?

// Everytime you use an abbreviation that dakka doesn't know a shame bell of nurgle will ring.

MOTDM should have been Blessing of the Dark Master. It makes you Transhit, no reroll wounds and no reroll damage.

RE War Dogs and the Master of Possession, no because they don't have the keywords.

Best,
Samii.

war dogs will never be able to resurrect because they split in board and are treated as units of 1 model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm thinking on the usual list of word bearers

- DP
- MoP
- Apostol

- 10 termis
- 10 possessed
- MoE
- 20 warp talons

nd some CKs

But i'm not sure this will work anymore since loyalist (and everyone else) can just kill everything with bolter. Warp talons are no opponent for new cheap terminators...

I'm scared of coming back to Pre-AOC times. Where Admech and everyone else could just remove every marine from the board in a turn and a half

Definitely interested in hearing experiences with this new environment. Signed up to a Crusade league to try the game again for the first time since the 8th SM 2.0 debacle.

Hey all, I'm getting back into 40k with Chaos Astartes and Astra Militarum. I've played like 3 games of 9th at release but played plenty in 8th.

I'd like to take a more relaxed approach in my collection and mainly go by rule of cool for the theme of my armies and would like to play Word Bearers. I'd like to go 11 on the Daemon/Possessed theme and was wondering how they play and hold up in games nowadays. I think I won't play too many games before 10th hit in summer but I'll try to play a bit.

I have the Start Collecting + a Dark Apostle for now, my plan is to get Possessed, a Daemon Prince, more Marines and maybe some Cultists, haven't tried for a list yet. It seems Chaos Astartes are really focused on melee and Psykers now, with the basic Legionaries having 3 attacks base, and the Word Bearers' bonus helping hit in CC. How does the gameplay and a typical list looks nowadays ? Have we moved on from the "Marines useless, play 80 Cultists" meta yet ? I'd rather have quite a few Legionaries and only a bit of Cultists.

Points have been changed, no one yet knows how CSM will evolve. Only time will tell. If you want to run legionaries i suggest to max their weapons, because they are all free. That means powerfist and plasma pistol on the champ, a heavy chainaxe, normal marines with bolt pistol and chainsword, and one or two special/heavy weapons, depending on unit size. A psyker can be added to the unit for 20 points.

A unit with 5 marines including powerfist, plasma pistol, heavy chainaxe, a psyker, one special/heavy weapon, with obsec, for 110 points is not a bad choice, i think.

I think ‘rule of cool’ is the only way to collect right now, When you work out a competitive build, by the time you’ve gone to a shop, bought the unit, built it, painted it, and brought it to table, it’s got a significant likelihood of having wildly changed in costing and effectiveness

 lindsay40k wrote:
I think ‘rule of cool’ is the only way to collect right now, When you work out a competitive build, by the time you’ve gone to a shop, bought the unit, built it, painted it, and brought it to table, it’s got a significant likelihood of having wildly changed in costing and effectiveness

That's what made me sell my AdMech in disgust at the state of the game last year to be honest. Played and still play MESBG for the gameplay, but I miss 40k so I'm back with WB and Astra. Rule of cool means less stress when a dataslate or edition change comes up.

But it's still bonus when I can get a cool army that doesn't get tabled by casual lists though !

 lindsay40k wrote:
I think ‘rule of cool’ is the only way to collect right now, When you work out a competitive build, by the time you’ve gone to a shop, bought the unit, built it, painted it, and brought it to table, it’s got a significant likelihood of having wildly changed in costing and effectiveness

Magnets.

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey all, I'm getting back into 40k with Chaos Astartes and Astra Militarum. I've played like 3 games of 9th at release but played plenty in 8th.

I'd like to take a more relaxed approach in my collection and mainly go by rule of cool for the theme of my armies and would like to play Word Bearers. I'd like to go 11 on the Daemon/Possessed theme and was wondering how they play and hold up in games nowadays. I think I won't play too many games before 10th hit in summer but I'll try to play a bit.

I have the Start Collecting + a Dark Apostle for now, my plan is to get Possessed, a Daemon Prince, more Marines and maybe some Cultists, haven't tried for a list yet. It seems Chaos Astartes are really focused on melee and Psykers now, with the basic Legionaries having 3 attacks base, and the Word Bearers' bonus helping hit in CC. How does the gameplay and a typical list looks nowadays ? Have we moved on from the "Marines useless, play 80 Cultists" meta yet ? I'd rather have quite a few Legionaries and only a bit of Cultists.

You'll be in good company with the possessed, they not only look cool, but they're tough, fast, have lots of wounds, and terrify your opponents. They frequently get the black rune which makes them scarier, and they'll be on the frontlines too, so the anti-psyker buff doesn't hurt either. I'm becoming a fan of the DP too. With wings, its a great option to drop down behind your possessed on turn 2 to give them their re-roll hit buff (they're probably not making melee on turn 1 so he can stay safe from an alpha strike). He's also nice and big, so despite the change/nerf to psychic interrogation he'll more than likely be visible to an enemy character letting you squeeze off that secondary.

I wouldn't go any more than 1 unit of cultists. They're little more than obsec meat.

Kangarupe wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey all, I'm getting back into 40k with Chaos Astartes and Astra Militarum. I've played like 3 games of 9th at release but played plenty in 8th.

I'd like to take a more relaxed approach in my collection and mainly go by rule of cool for the theme of my armies and would like to play Word Bearers. I'd like to go 11 on the Daemon/Possessed theme and was wondering how they play and hold up in games nowadays. I think I won't play too many games before 10th hit in summer but I'll try to play a bit.

I have the Start Collecting + a Dark Apostle for now, my plan is to get Possessed, a Daemon Prince, more Marines and maybe some Cultists, haven't tried for a list yet. It seems Chaos Astartes are really focused on melee and Psykers now, with the basic Legionaries having 3 attacks base, and the Word Bearers' bonus helping hit in CC. How does the gameplay and a typical list looks nowadays ? Have we moved on from the "Marines useless, play 80 Cultists" meta yet ? I'd rather have quite a few Legionaries and only a bit of Cultists.

You'll be in good company with the possessed, they not only look cool, but they're tough, fast, have lots of wounds, and terrify your opponents. They frequently get the black rune which makes them scarier, and they'll be on the frontlines too, so the anti-psyker buff doesn't hurt either. I'm becoming a fan of the DP too. With wings, its a great option to drop down behind your possessed on turn 2 to give them their re-roll hit buff (they're probably not making melee on turn 1 so he can stay safe from an alpha strike). He's also nice and big, so despite the change/nerf to psychic interrogation he'll more than likely be visible to an enemy character letting you squeeze off that secondary.

I wouldn't go any more than 1 unit of cultists. They're little more than obsec meat.

Possessed aren't Core, so they don't get rerolls from a Prince.

Are wings still mandatory on DP? Trying to find places in my list to reduce points to bring in more possessed and tinkering with saving the points by removing wings.

Loose 4" movement but the biggest draw is Fly. ignoring terrain and hopping over screens to charge open characters is always nice so wondering if it's worth losing to save the points or if I should trim it elsewhere..

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Are wings still mandatory on DP?

Unless you're Red Corsairs, yes. Even then, it's mandatory.

Yeah that's what I thought, FLY is just too good to pass up. Will trim points elsewhere

Hi all,

I've been using a list more tailored to AoO. It's been performing very well so I thought I'd share again.

Here is the list:

Black Legion Arks of Omen Detachment

Chaos Lord - Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
Mark of Khorne
Warlord Trait: Eternal Vendetta

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour - Force Sword, Combi-melta, Chaos Familiar
Mark of Tzeentch
Relic: Veilbreaker Plate
Spells: Smite, Prescience, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate

Master of Possession - Bolt Pistol, Staff of Possession, Frag and Krak Grenades
Spells: Smite, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh

Dark Apostle - Bolt Pistol, Accursed Crozius, Frag and Krak Grenades
Prayers: Dark Zealotry, Illusory Supplication
2 x Dark Disciples

Chaos Contemptor - x2 Twin-volkite Culverins, Hellforged Cyclone Missile Launcher
Mark of Nurgle

Chaos Decimator - x2 Soulburner Petards

Chaos Decimator - x2 Soulburner Petards

Helbrute - Multi-melta, Helbrute Fist, Heavy Flamer

Helbrute - Multi-melta, Helbrute Fist, Heavy Flamer

Chosen
x 8 Chosen
x 1 Power Fist
x 7 Accursed Weapons
x 8 Boltguns
x 8 Bolt Pistols
Frag and Krak Grenades
Champion - Power Fist, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol
Mark of Tzeentch

Legionnaires
x 4 Legionnaires
x 4 Bolt Pistols
x 1 Lascannon
x 2 Boltguns
x 1 Balefire Tome
Frag and Krak Grenades
Aspiring Champion - Plasma Pistol, Boltgun
Mark of Tzeentch
Spells: Smite, Diabolic Strength, Skeins of Fate

Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 6 Cultist Firearms
x 1 Cultist Grenade Launcher
x 1 Flamer
x 1 Heavy Stubber
Frag and Krak Grenades
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm

Cultists Mob
x 9 Cultists
x 6 Cultist Firearms
x 1 Cultist Grenade Launcher
x 1 Flamer
x 1 Heavy Stubber
Frag and Krak Grenades
Cultist Champion - Cultist Firearm

Havocs
x 4 Havocs
x 4 Lascannons
Havoc Champion - Boltgun
Mark of Slaanesh

Allied Chaos Knights Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment

War Dog Brigand (Dreadblade) - Avenger Chaincannon, Daemonbreath Spear, Diabolus Heavy Stubber
Fell Bond: Biomechanical Fusion
Mirror of Fates

So how it plays, with key focus on differences from Nephilim.

1) I found Terminators (mainly IW) are still good, but I changed them out for Chosen for a few reasons. With the lethality of enemy shooting and combat having increased significantly, mortal wound saturation and the loss of AoC, its just better to have more bodies than fewer tougher ones. MoT (4++) makes it so that you hit a lot of the old break points that AoC had, but on cheaper bodies. With the Black Rune and Illusory Supplication, they are tough, you have more of them, they are cheaper so if they are wiped out you still have assets in play. The shooting and melee is weaker, but I have a few tricks that can make up for that.

I Veilbreaker Plate them up on Turn 1, usually shoot and charge screens, kill them and consolidate into something behind and/or contest midfield objectives. I cast Diabolic Strength on the champ and Prescience on the unit and can make them Word Bearers for a turn, if I need melee punch. I can play the Veil Sorcerer more aggressively, the following Turn. He can use that combination of powers/strats on himself: if the Chosen are killed first, he can take their place.

The point of the combination is more of a distraction than a sledgehammer, by not having a points sink there it gives me more assets. The unit being bigger also makes it easier to tag things and be a general midfield nuisance.

2) As with the Nephilim list, I build around a firebase consisting of Havocs, Contemptor, Legionnaires and now with the addition of a Brigand Dreadblade with Mirror of Fates. I hide this behind BLOS and if needed screen it out with Cultists. Turn 1 I pop out and I will usually play the Slaanesh strat on the Havocs and possibly turn the Contemptor into Emperor's Children; I can use the Tzeentch strat on the Brigand to autowound, or reroll 1's to hit depending on the situation, terrain setups etc. The Lord is giving reroll wounds to the Contemptor.

I shoot the firebase, the Chosen Veil up kill screens, tag stuff and contest. Now my opponent has to respond. The Chosen are not efficient to shoot, even of they are killed its not game over by any means. The firebase is usually far away and I can protect the Contemptor with Transhuman and the Brigand with Rotate Ion Shields. The Brigand will sometimes be Transhuman also. I switched out the original BOTDM Brigand with the Mirror one, because I find the extra command point potential to be more useful in this build.

3) The next turn, I bring in the Helbrutes from reserve and the Decimators to clean up. I have to credit Dean from BFTBG for this tactic: the Helbrutes and the Decimators are mean when they can just walk in from reserve and do damage. I still have shooting from the firebase left usually and the combination can be overwhelming.

4) I dropped Abaddon. Again, I think its just better to have more assets in play than smaller tougher, slower ones. The Chaos Lord has MoK to give me access to the deny strat and can sit in the firebase. I think the problem with Abaddon is that he make CSM play lazily with their support characters: most CSM characters can be turned into melee monsters with Diabolic Strength and/or the Omen of Potency. Abaddon being there just makes them sit around in the backfield doing nothing.

I played a few test games, so it might be best to explain the power of the list with reference to one.

VS AM:

The list: an optimized seven LR AM list with Key Kasrkin, Banner, Leontus etc.

Turn 1 I screen out the firebase with Cultists so the Key Kasrkin couldn't drop in my backfield, Sentinels had no way through and I was mostly hidden, I lost a Cultist unit and a few more in the second unit that was partially hidden.

I then jumped out, firebase killed two LR's and bracketed a third. The Chosen Veiled up, killed infantry on an objective and then tag another LR with their consolidate. I had enough shooting left over from the Brigand and Chosen to thin some infantry squads.

Turn 2 4 LR's split fire into the Chosen and firebase, buffed Kasrkin focus on Chosen. None of the shooting sticks: Chosen dropped to half but that's it. I resurrect one and multi-charge the LR's. Helbrutes and Decimators show up and another three LR's are killed from melee/shooting and I have shooting leftover to kill some more infantry and Kasrkin. Only one tank is untagged/alive.

Turn 3, its basically GG. I shoot the Kasrkin with the Contemptor and Chosen, Helbrutes and Decimators finish off the tanks and remaining infantry. Only characters left.

The imbalance felt overwhelming, but dice were not particularly skewed.

If the LR's had backlined it would have killed the objective play, that's how the Chosen were able to get to one even behind the screen.

Same principles apply here to a lot of enemies: vs DA for example screen out RW Knights with Cultists and then hammer them with shooting and counter charges from Chosen. When the DW drop in hold the line and then counterpunch with Helbrutes, Decimators and the remaining Characters.

Same idea vs Quins, Drukhari and GK. In these situations its sometimes better to hold the Chosen back.

Vs Votann or shooting Marines (IH), switch target priority to the infantry. If anything they should be easier because they don't have screens to block Chosen, Helbrutes and Decimators and are slow.

Thoughts or suggestion welcome.

Best,
Samii.

Another good write up.

I've gone down the path of Abaddon + MoP + T. Sorc for the healing and warptime and I've really enjoyed it. It does feel expensive at 565 mainly because everything in CSM currently feels expensive. But, I do try to play the MoP and T. Sorc aggressively so they are more than just buff bots.

Agree that Diabolic Strength is a great buff to turn any unit champion (or support character) with a D2 weapon into a threat.

I like bringing shooting too and have been using multiple Havoc squads mainly due to what units I own and they tend to be my Veilbreaker target for some juicy exploding 6 action turn 1.

I really wish Wanton of DevDoc could last beyond turn 1, then heavy weapons coming in turn 2 or 3 would be very viable as Black Legion.

But I guess that is why you take rapid fire and assault weapons.

Yep, the Decimators in particular benefit from the (Assault Weapons) Doctrines more and it fits them coming in from reserve.

The Helbrutes and Decimators in Black Legion are excellent in reserves because they can be more easily positioned to get +1 to hit and (again credit to Dean here) the Fire Frenzy strat lets you shoot a Helbrute out of sequence, which can really catch the opponent unawares.

Before the free reserves, Helbrutes just couldn't get position, but now the best configuration (Multi-melta, Fist with Heavy Flamer) are a threat.

Best,
Samii.