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The Speculative Context:



The Lion returns with his redeemed 'Risen' Astartes along with some of the Fallen Dark Angles, and this heretical reunification of the Dark Angels has unsettled the Black Templars.

Guilliman getting tired of maintaining a stagnant, regressive empire, falls in line with The Lion, and so do some other renegade loyalist chapters.

The Lion takes over as Regent Emperor and starts an admin shakedown, preparing to take on the Imperial cult and all it's arms.

This puts the Black Templars and The Sisters of Battle on high alert and the most devote among them begin having apocalyptic visions, and of The God Emperor. They prepare their arms for martyrdom.

The Ecclesiarchy holds court with it's allies.

Helbrecht and the emperor's champions spend days in martial meditation and prayer, they send representive chaplains to the court, while holding council among themselves and their closest allied brotherhoods.

All Templars are now rallying to the Eternal Crusader from all over the galaxy.

Some lessor known God-Emperor literalist chapters arrive to join Helbrecht.

The Inquistion begins purging heretics with intensity, this stirs rebellion and sectarianism sets in among the Imperial worlds, with God-Emperor literalists intigating conflicts among populations, in other cases conflicts arise over loyalties to marine chapters.

Dorn doesn't really have to return in this case, but if he does, he see's where things are, and with great dismay realizes he must side with The Lion. Some of the Imperial Fist veterans who have fought along side the Black Templars break camp with the IF and go join their BT bros inspite of Dorn's will.

Fires are alight on many worlds, the battle ahead will be more than just two chapters...

And finally,

The Great Mustering of the Black Templars is now in play, and becomes the greatest roll call ever recorded in Imperial history. For Ten Thousand years the Black Templars have been afield on taking the fight to the enemy, subduing world after world. The Black Templar numbers are not in the mere thousands, but the tens of thousands....

If it came down to Superman vs Batman, who would win?

What about Wolverine vs Deadpool.

Flash vs Wonder Woman?

Who would win depends on who’s writing it and, more importantly, who anyone answering wants to win. There isn’t any discussion to bad had beyond that.

I should have put italics around who-would-win for style.

Hmmm....Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Tyranids.........

The context does matter a fair bit, especially if you're considering who would ally with who, as the BT have fairly good relations with the majority of chapters descended from Dorn, like the Crimson Fists, Celestial Lions (though they wouldn't be able to help much in this case) and Imperial Fists, so you would have a significant chunk of that and their assets, like the Phalanx, which could counter things like The Rock. Especially if the DA are the aggressor in the situation, it could put the BT in a more sympathetic light, and given their ties to Eccesliarchy thanks to being adherents of the Imperial Cult, could leverage that for support from things like the Sisters of Battle that the DA likely wouldn't be able to. Howevever, the DA are effectively all but a legion but in name, and if we're factoring the return of the Lion, they have a very strong force multiplier since BT don't really have someone comparable to a Primarch.

In terms of weaponry, DA are going to be the winners here. While the BT have a mighty fleet and sheer numbers, the DA have The Rock in addition to lots of forbidden tech gifted solely to them by the Emperor, i.e. lobotomized Men of Iron, and their role as exterminators means they have a lot more goodies to play with, especially when you factor that they were the Emperor's potential back up plan if they had to engage with Mars in civil war prior to the Heresy.

In terms of chapter to chapter, (i.e. just the DA chapter by themselves without successors) and BT only, it kinda varies, as it kind of depends on who gets the first strike on who and if the BT are actually able to bring all of their numbers to bear given that they're spread across the galaxy. If it's one on one decisive fight with all that they have to bear, I feel like the Templars would win through sheer attrition but at great cost and at best a pyrhhic victory that leaves them almost wiped out themselves if the DA unleash all that have. Otherwise I feel the DA with their spy network would be able to take the Templars apart piecemeal.

 Adeptekon wrote:
This is a serious question, it's related some speculations I'm not prepared to release just yet, or maybe I'll drop them entirely after hearing the answers.

But... for the sake of discussion if it came down to Dark Angels vs Black Templars who would win?

If the Dark Angels are one of the most formidable chapters, the Templars can't be far behind, especially if they could somehow be rallied from across the galaxy.

So strengthwise, who is most powerful in weaponry? I'm giving size to the BTs, but comparing navies, and weapons I'm not so sure.

If there were such a showdown, I wonder if any beyond a few obscure brotherhoods would join the Templars. I assume the Dark Angels would have more allies.

To truly answer those questions you'd have to know which faction GW was aiming to sell you.
If it was a DA narrative? Then the DA win. If it were BT focused, then BT....

In a fashion show, i think DA would win. Lion el Johnson with his swirling robes on the runaway would be a slam dunk. Sure the gothic black style of the templars is gorgeous, but dark angels have 3 complementing wardrobes from their different fashion wings. The sheer spectacle of drab colors would work in their favour

I'd say both chapters have great tailors for their robes, so it would be a great runaway battle! Black templars hairdressers sucks though but i think they make up for it with their better DJs, as they have close ties with the sisters of battles (excorcists are no joke)

 Adeptekon wrote:
This is a serious question, it's related some speculations I'm not prepared to release just yet, or maybe I'll drop them entirely after hearing the answers.

But... for the sake of discussion if it came down to Dark Angels vs Black Templars who would win?

If the Dark Angels are one of the most formidable chapters, the Templars can't be far behind, especially if they could somehow be rallied from across the galaxy.

So strengthwise, who is most powerful in weaponry? I'm giving size to the BTs, but comparing navies, and weapons I'm not so sure.

If there were such a showdown, I wonder if any beyond a few obscure brotherhoods would join the Templars. I assume the Dark Angels would have more allies.

neither group keeps the size of a chapter. DA have pre heresy gear. It is just very hard for DA officers to actualy let someone use them, BT on the other hand use everything they can get their hands on.

'Who would win' questions are inherently kinda silly, as if wars are resolved entirely by paper strength and nothing to do with strategic goals, leadership, combat theater, etc.

 catbarf wrote:
'Who would win' questions are inherently kinda silly, as if wars are resolved entirely by paper strength and nothing to do with strategic goals, leadership, combat theater, etc.

Who said anything about war?

 Gitdakka wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
'Who would win' questions are inherently kinda silly, as if wars are resolved entirely by paper strength and nothing to do with strategic goals, leadership, combat theater, etc.

Who said anything about war?

Dark Angels slightly more gay iconic but only slightly. All these big angry space marine bears are just fabulous!

Grimskul wrote:The context does matter a fair bit, especially if you're considering who would ally with who, as the BT have fairly good relations with the majority of chapters descended from Dorn, like the Crimson Fists, Celestial Lions (though they wouldn't be able to help much in this case) and Imperial Fists, so you would have a significant chunk of that and their assets, like the Phalanx, which could counter things like The Rock. Especially if the DA are the aggressor in the situation, it could put the BT in a more sympathetic light, and given their ties to Eccesliarchy thanks to being adherents of the Imperial Cult, could leverage that for support from things like the Sisters of Battle that the DA likely wouldn't be able to. Howevever, the DA are effectively all but a legion but in name, and if we're factoring the return of the Lion, they have a very strong force multiplier since BT don't really have someone comparable to a Primarch.

Yes I figured the IF, but also not entirely sure because the context would relate to Dorn's return, and I really want to play up the ideological differences in light of current events. Though good points about non-Astarte allies. I just wonder if things got ideologically heavy if the IF would be all in or maybe some would and other wouldn't.

I'm giving away some of the speculative context, but Dorn's return in this case would be part of the ideological drama I forsee, I know others disagree here, but that's no fun imho so just testing my ideas.

Grimskul wrote:In terms of weaponry, DA are going to be the winners here. While the BT have a mighty fleet and sheer numbers, the DA have The Rock in addition to lots of forbidden tech gifted solely to them by the Emperor, i.e. lobotomized Men of Iron, and their role as exterminators means they have a lot more goodies to play with, especially when you factor that they were the Emperor's potential back up plan if they had to engage with Mars in civil war prior to the Heresy.

Oh wow see I actually learned something here. I did not realize they had heretek or Men of Iron! I figured they had some goodies though.

Grimskul wrote:In terms of chapter to chapter, (i.e. just the DA chapter by themselves without successors) and BT only, it kinda varies, as it kind of depends on who gets the first strike on who and if the BT are actually able to bring all of their numbers to bear given that they're spread across the galaxy. If it's one on one decisive fight with all that they have to bear, I feel like the Templars would win through sheer attrition but at great cost and at best a pyrhhic victory that leaves them almost wiped out themselves if the DA unleash all that have. Otherwise I feel the DA with their spy network would be able to take the Templars apart piecemeal.

Yeah that's all in good fun, and would be great to see, the who would win part.

Gitdakka wrote:In a fashion show, i think DA would win. Lion el Johnson with his swirling robes on the runaway would be a slam dunk. Sure the gothic black style of the templars is gorgeous, but dark angels have 3 complementing wardrobes from their different fashion wings. The sheer spectacle of drab colors would work in their favour

I'd say both chapters have great tailors for their robes, so it would be a great runaway battle! Black templars hairdressers sucks though but i think they make up for it with their better DJs, as they have close ties with the sisters of battles (excorcists are no joke)

I'd call a dance off.

Karol wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
This is a serious question, it's related some speculations I'm not prepared to release just yet, or maybe I'll drop them entirely after hearing the answers.

But... for the sake of discussion if it came down to Dark Angels vs Black Templars who would win?

If the Dark Angels are one of the most formidable chapters, the Templars can't be far behind, especially if they could somehow be rallied from across the galaxy.

So strengthwise, who is most powerful in weaponry? I'm giving size to the BTs, but comparing navies, and weapons I'm not so sure.

If there were such a showdown, I wonder if any beyond a few obscure brotherhoods would join the Templars. I assume the Dark Angels would have more allies.

neither group keeps the size of a chapter. DA have pre heresy gear. It is just very hard for DA officers to actualy let someone use them, BT on the other hand use everything they can get their hands on.

Now I don't believe I've heard that the BTs use everything that can get their hands on. That would make some sense though considering their dispursment, but I want to ask you for your source on that one, because it would seem to be the opposite of everything I hear/read. With Templars being strict in their prohabitions, and highly melee focused.

Couldn't the lion just order them out of existence? I mean robute could and you think a Primarch s authority would be second only to the emperor. The templars have no primarch. The lion could declare them excommunicated. Fairly certain he could convince his brother of what he wanted also so nepotism just like in real life would likely win with little effort.

In a fight probably dark angels led by the mind of a Primarch.

They probably should have left primarchs stay in the past.

Karol wrote:
neither group keeps the size of a chapter. DA have pre heresy gear. It is just very hard for DA officers to actualy let someone use them, BT on the other hand use everything they can get their hands on.

That is not accurate on multiple counts.

The Dark Angels are a Codex compliant Chapter though with the exception that the 2nd Company is the Ravenwing rather than a Battle Company and the Chapter is not larger than Codex strength in any significant way. They have the additional rank of Interrogator Chaplain within their Chaplaincy also but these are interchangeable with those of the regular Chaplain rank within Company structure.

The Templars are no more common in using whatever wargear they can muster than any other Chapter is. Indeed they have possibly one of the largest stores of relics as due to their religious nature, they often consecrate items that secular Chapters would not, and many of their most prized relics date back to the Heresy and Scouring, such as the Black Sword and Sword of the High Marshalls. Their flagship is a Glorianna Class vessel as well, just like the Dark Angels.

Looks like I may just need to discuss what relics are on hand with my chaplain. But I wonder are there any blackstone relics in use by any of the chapters? At first I thought the blackswords were a reference to this. After learning of how the shards of Dorn's sword were used in Sigsmunds blackblade it got me wondering if there were blackstone shards used on blades or other gear.

That said, yes the BTs would be disadvantaged without Dorn, but doubley so if I brought back Dorn which then divided the legion upon ideological grounds.

My inspiration here is the 500 year old conflict between Catholics and Protestants, and further still the polarization between militant Athiests and Believers.

So there's some context. Ideology has been a powerful force IRL, people die for it just like they do in game. I think there's some grounds to play upon there.

Though without suffiecient strength in the most zealous of BT ranks none of it would happen. Especially not facing the DA allied with most everyone else (marines), and being disowned by their own Primarch.

So this could just be an idea for the scrap heap I have built up already.


EDIT: More context, I forgot additional context here to stirrup drama are the Fallen Astartes.

The Black Sword is archeotech from the Dark Age of technology. This is wielded by the Emperor's Champion.
The Sword of the High Marshals is the one made from Dorn's shattered blade and in its early days it was known as the Sword of Sigismund. It is the blade wielded by the High Marshal of the Chapter, hence the name.

 Gert wrote:
The Black Sword is archeotech from the Dark Age of technology. This is wielded by the Emperor's Champion.

Is it, though - unless this was retcon'd in the last BT Supplement, each BT Crusade has an Emperor's Champion, each of which is wielding a "Black Sword". Something tells me that these Black Swoards aren't all archeotech, as presumably they need to be produced somewhere.

There may be a Black Sword for which this is the case - probably for the Emperor's Champion in the High Marshall's fleet, if anywhere - but there are too many Emperor's Champions kicking around the place for this to be true of all of them.

Well, there's The Black Sword and the Black Sword.
The OG Black Sword is the one I was talking about, the one wielded by Sigismund during the Siege of Terra.
Others just seem to be very good swords that also happen to be black.

 Grimskul wrote:
The context does matter a fair bit, especially if you're considering who would ally with who, as the BT have fairly good relations with the majority of chapters descended from Dorn, like the Crimson Fists, Celestial Lions (though they wouldn't be able to help much in this case) and Imperial Fists, so you would have a significant chunk of that and their assets, like the Phalanx, which could counter things like The Rock. Especially if the DA are the aggressor in the situation, it could put the BT in a more sympathetic light, and given their ties to Eccesliarchy thanks to being adherents of the Imperial Cult, could leverage that for support from things like the Sisters of Battle that the DA likely wouldn't be able to. Howevever, the DA are effectively all but a legion but in name, and if we're factoring the return of the Lion, they have a very strong force multiplier since BT don't really have someone comparable to a Primarch.

Bt might have friends with if based chapters.

Dark angel successors are much more linked to da though. Practically legion in all but name,

Now of course they have literal son of emperor. That carries tons of weight.

Edited the OP, to provide the missing context.

 Gert wrote:

Karol wrote:
neither group keeps the size of a chapter. DA have pre heresy gear. It is just very hard for DA officers to actualy let someone use them, BT on the other hand use everything they can get their hands on.

That is not accurate on multiple counts.

The Dark Angels are a Codex compliant Chapter though with the exception that the 2nd Company is the Ravenwing rather than a Battle Company and the Chapter is not larger than Codex strength in any significant way. They have the additional rank of Interrogator Chaplain within their Chaplaincy also but these are interchangeable with those of the regular Chaplain rank within Company structure.

That's not really accurate. Technically the DA and their successors are largely Codex compliant and roughly normal size for such Chapters.In reality, one of the big secrets of the DA is that they are functionally still a Legion, with the successors and the DA themselves able to operate as one cohesive force in a way other First Founding Chapters and their successors are not.

 Gert wrote:
The Templars are no more common in using whatever wargear they can muster than any other Chapter is. Indeed they have possibly one of the largest stores of relics as due to their religious nature, they often consecrate items that secular Chapters would not, and many of their most prized relics date back to the Heresy and Scouring, such as the Black Sword and Sword of the High Marshalls. Their flagship is a Glorianna Class vessel as well, just like the Dark Angels.

The Templars certainly seem to hold more reverence for their gear than most SMs, but I agree they don't really seem to have any more specialised or effective equipment than any other Chapter. However, I'm pretty sure by any definition the DA flagship would be The Rock, which is likely the most powerful vessel in the Imperium.

Slipspace wrote:
That's not really accurate. Technically the DA and their successors are largely Codex compliant and roughly normal size for such Chapters.In reality, one of the big secrets of the DA is that they are functionally still a Legion, with the successors and the DA themselves able to operate as one cohesive force in a way other First Founding Chapters and their successors are not.

See I deliberately didn't mention the Unforgiven aspect because people misunderstand it a lot. The Unforgiven unify to hunt the Fallen and while they are very close, they are not alone in having close bonds of brotherhood with sibling Chapters, with the Sanguinary Brotherhood being the most significant example. The lineage of Dorn also tends to be very close, with the Feast of Blades being an important shared cultural event that all of Dorn's sons will send a representative to even if they cannot attend in force and many Successors of the Ultramarines likewise share extremely close bonds with their parent Chapter, with the Patriarchs of Ulixis and Genesis Chapter even often having Astartes serve within the Ultramarines or other Successor Chapters ranks.
The Unforgiven, however, is not a secret Legion. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels does not command the other Unforgiven Chapters outside of hunts for the Fallen and these Chapters are still entirely independent. They often work in tandem with their parent Chapter but that is not a unique trait.

I don't want to go into hypotheticals about whether the Unforgiven would fight the Black Templars because these sorts of things are boring and resort to people's favourites.

The Templars certainly seem to hold more reverence for their gear than most SMs, but I agree they don't really seem to have any more specialised or effective equipment than any other Chapter. However, I'm pretty sure by any definition the DA flagship would be The Rock, which is likely the most powerful vessel in the Imperium.

While a lot of Chapters will designate a mobile Fortress Monastery as their flagship, the Dark Angels still use the Invincible Reason because they have the option. It means that the Rock can stay safe and only be deployed if the situation requires it.
As far as the most powerful vessels of the Imperium the Rock is up there but the title is held by the Phalanx largely because it's essentially one giant piece of archeotech.

My bad, I meant the Eternal Crusader not the Phalanx...

 Gert wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
That's not really accurate. Technically the DA and their successors are largely Codex compliant and roughly normal size for such Chapters.In reality, one of the big secrets of the DA is that they are functionally still a Legion, with the successors and the DA themselves able to operate as one cohesive force in a way other First Founding Chapters and their successors are not.

See I deliberately didn't mention the Unforgiven aspect because people misunderstand it a lot. The Unforgiven unify to hunt the Fallen and while they are very close, they are not alone in having close bonds of brotherhood with sibling Chapters, with the Sanguinary Brotherhood being the most significant example. The lineage of Dorn also tends to be very close, with the Feast of Blades being an important shared cultural event that all of Dorn's sons will send a representative to even if they cannot attend in force and many Successors of the Ultramarines likewise share extremely close bonds with their parent Chapter, with the Patriarchs of Ulixis and Genesis Chapter even often having Astartes serve within the Ultramarines or other Successor Chapters ranks.
The Unforgiven, however, is not a secret Legion. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels does not command the other Unforgiven Chapters outside of hunts for the Fallen and these Chapters are still entirely independent. They often work in tandem with their parent Chapter but that is not a unique trait.

I don't want to go into hypotheticals about whether the Unforgiven would fight the Black Templars because these sorts of things are boring and resort to people's favourites.

Azrael does command them all to be fair. In the book "Azrael" when he becomes Grand Master of the Dark Angels after going through the trials and his little meeitng with Ezekiel etc. He calls all successor chapter masters to the rock. Most do attend bar like 2 I think, been a while since I read it.

But Azrael just straihgt up says to them all. "You all report to me." Thus he is the Supreme Grand Master.

Great read at one point he runs accross roof tops and single handed takes on a helldrake.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Most do attend bar like 2 I think, been a while since I read it.

Any way you could find out who they were?

Yeah Sean is right when it comes to the original lore.

The dark angels only follow the codex dictates superficially. they never actually broke up the legion. The lion was against the idea to begin with.

Numbers wise it is a wash between which has the bigger force. combat doctrine is also very divergent between the two factions....although they both do love their swords.

 aphyon wrote:
Yeah Sean is right when it comes to the original lore.

The dark angels only follow the codex dictates superficially. they never actually broke up the legion. The lion was against the idea to begin with.

Numbers wise it is a wash between which has the bigger force. combat doctrine is also very divergent between the two factions....although they both do love their swords.

This is beautiful.