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Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Gw broadly claimed that 10. is going to be less lethal, re-rolls are going to be more scare.

Well we haven't seen all the rules yet obviously, but to me it seems there are a LOT of re rolls already baked in the new datasheets. I mean a Leman Russ re rolling all hits against units on an objective? Really? Don't get me wrong I don't particularly care that that unit gets conditional full re rolls, but it comes off really strange claiming to reduce re rolls at the start of a new edition and then absolutely not following through.

Same thing with lethal hits and devastating wounds. With all the anti psyker stuff already floating around in the snippets of rules we've seen, being a psyker seems to be more of a liability than a benefit than ever before.

Not saying 10. is necessarily going to be bad because of this, it just strikes me as really odd for an edition GW claimed to be designed to be less lethal.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well not many psykers that can't hide inside unit. People are exaggerating that at least.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Also gonna depend on how deadly Psykers are. If they’re…more 3rd Ed than 2nd Ed, I’m not sure I’d be purposefully loading for Psyker?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




personally I hate re-rolls, can sort of see it as a thing for characters to be able to re-roll a single dice roll in combat say, but re-rolling everything gets lazy and spread like confetti

either bite the bullet and move away from a D6 system (even if just for characters with a D8 maybe or D10 so they have results plebs can't), or for all and work with modifiers or accept it and find other ways to make units better - like say "can fire half shots at +1" or something

re-rolls, especially on common units with a lot of actions just takes far too long for the "benefit" it brings
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

I'm much more okay with some units getting re-rolls under circumstantial conditions than characters projecting bland bubbles of re-rolls across your entire army.

And I prefer buff mechanics like sustained hits / lethal hits / devastating wounds over re-rolls, both because they allow more differentiation and simply because they speed up resolution of combat.

It may not end up being fewer datasheets with re-rolls as rules, but I bet there'll be less re-rolling on the table than in 8th/9th.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Of the roughly 50 datasheets I've grabbed during this weekend 5 have had rerolls.

Morty used to grant one unit full and aura 1s, but now grants aura only if he chooses that mode.

Lord of Change, Bloodthirster, Lord of Virulence, Keeper, Spoilpox, Leontus, Typhus, GUO, and Tormentbringer all lost their reroll auras. The rerolls we have seen are more often conditional than not.

But apparently there's ~1900 sheets we haven't seen so jury is still out, I guess.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/06/03 23:00:33


 
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

There sure seems to be so far.

At the very least, one of the things I like that a lot of the rerolls tend to be conditional. It's not just a blank aura in most cases. The Drukhari Power from Pain is a great example. A limited resource you have to plan in advance. In some cases you have to attach a character to that unit, which is much less powerful than the previous iteration.

Even the major characters that have shown to have a reroll aura, comes with a choice now. These characters also tend to be even more vulnerable than the ones attaching to a unit.

4000+
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Made in us
Pious Palatine




Tiberias wrote:
Gw broadly claimed that 10. is going to be less lethal, re-rolls are going to be more scare.

Well we haven't seen all the rules yet obviously, but to me it seems there are a LOT of re rolls already baked in the new datasheets. I mean a Leman Russ re rolling all hits against units on an objective? Really? Don't get me wrong I don't particularly care that that unit gets conditional full re rolls, but it comes off really strange claiming to reduce re rolls at the start of a new edition and then absolutely not following through.

Same thing with lethal hits and devastating wounds. With all the anti psyker stuff already floating around in the snippets of rules we've seen, being a psyker seems to be more of a liability than a benefit than ever before.

Not saying 10. is necessarily going to be bad because of this, it just strikes me as really odd for an edition GW claimed to be designed to be less lethal.


In 9th, every competitive army had 100% of its offensive units benefiting from some variety off reroll hits and/or wounds 100% of the time for at least the first 3 turns of every game.

People forget that a lot. It's actually kind of fascinating.

Every one of these topics comes from someone imagining this illusory version of 9th that had some arbitrary amount of rerolls (much less than the reality) in it, and then compared that made-up version to what we've seen of 10th so far.


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tiberias wrote:
Gw broadly claimed that 10. is going to be less lethal, re-rolls are going to be more scare.

Well we haven't seen all the rules yet obviously, but to me it seems there are a LOT of re rolls already baked in the new datasheets. I mean a Leman Russ re rolling all hits against units on an objective? Really? Don't get me wrong I don't particularly care that that unit gets conditional full re rolls, but it comes off really strange claiming to reduce re rolls at the start of a new edition and then absolutely not following through.

Same thing with lethal hits and devastating wounds. With all the anti psyker stuff already floating around in the snippets of rules we've seen, being a psyker seems to be more of a liability than a benefit than ever before.

Not saying 10. is necessarily going to be bad because of this, it just strikes me as really odd for an edition GW claimed to be designed to be less lethal.


I think what's hard to see, is that average number of re-rolls per game have been reduced, even if units have conditional capacity to get re-rolls.

It's hard to see on first glance because an ability say's 'this unit gets rerolls' making it look like there's lots. But many of those are conditional, which means in practice, they won't happen all the time

9th re-rolls are 100% on all the time.


However, I do think the eldar have too many re-rolls on everything as an army. I understand the concept of them being skilled/precise/prognosticatory but it seems a little much.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I really hope so, all of the rerolls available to units with 2+ stats is so cheesy.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





johnpjones1775 wrote:
I really hope so, all of the rerolls available to units with 2+ stats is so cheesy.


Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/05 03:13:53


 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 alextroy wrote:
Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.


Well 2+ isn't all that common, even less so on sub-character level models. Plus you're talking about the fallacy of misleading vividness not empirical mathematics. Because missing a 2+ isn't supposed to happen often, when it does it sticks more in your memory. 2+ rerolls goes from 84% to 97%. 3+ Rerolls goes from 67% to 89%, 4+ goes from 50 to 75%, 5+ 33% to 55%, 6+ goes from 16 to 29% -

And now that I do the math on that, rerolls on a 5+ Overwatch isn't bad. Even on a 6+ with a big/shooty enough unit.

But if you're talking about a 2+ to hit HQ with a 1 shot pistol, they reroll less than once a game. The characters with 2+ to hit in melee feel like they should reroll 1s anyway and it comes up every other turn or so until you get to the Angron-ic flying charging battering ram types that can get into melee ever turn.

Take 10 Terminators with Power/Chain Fists and you're getting 30+ attacks, 10/15 misses before rerolls, 3.5/7.5 misses after Plus more Anti-Vehicle Crit potential and Oath +1's I didn't count. Far more units have far more models with a 3+/4+ and they get far more "bonus" hits from the rerolls because they'll likely have more rolls total, and more failures to turn into successes.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 alextroy wrote:
Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.


You miss 1 time in 6

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




There's a difference between the number of rules granting re-rolls and the quantity of dice actually being re-rolled. 10th seems to give quite a few Battleline units some kind of re-roll and we've seen individual units with some re-rolls too. What we're not seeing is trivial access to army-wide rerolls all the time.

It was extremely rare for my Blood Angels army not to be re-rolling 1s to hit all the time, and quite often there were multiple key units getting full re-rolls on top of that. We're not going to see that in 10th and I think the end result is going to be a much reduced number of dice being re-rolled.
   
Made in it
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Italy

I think it is a good idea to say there are less rerolls in the game (since they aren't that enjoyable to most players) to sell your new edition. I do not think it's a good idea to preview units with rerolls while making that claim.

Overall I think rerolls will be less common since they were overwhelming in 8th and 9th. Hard to say till we see the datasheets.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




there may well be a reduction in the number of re-rolls available, fewer units having them, or with some condition attached

but if the units people actually use largely still get them or have reasonably easy access the fact other units seldom seen have lost them hardly matters.

and GW being GW will start handing them out again by the 4th or 5th codex
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Slipspace wrote:
It was extremely rare for my Blood Angels army not to be re-rolling 1s to hit all the time, and quite often there were multiple key units getting full re-rolls on top of that. We're not going to see that in 10th and I think the end result is going to be a much reduced number of dice being re-rolled.

In 10th your entire Blood Angels army gets full re-rolls as long as you are nuking one unit, a likely event considering how this whole "less lethal" angle is spinning out. And the enemy can never remove that ability, not even with borderline miraculous feats like sniping out a character from the middle of your army. So there is that.

My armies:
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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






tneva82 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.


You miss 1 time in 6


I know a Dark Angels player who can prove you wrong despite the law of large numbers

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.


You miss 1 time in 6


I know a Dark Angels player who can prove you wrong despite the law of large numbers


let me guess, curse of the failing terminator armor?

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Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
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Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

10th has a lot of rerolls. Is it much less common than 9th, as GW said ? That remains to be seen. I doubt it.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.


You miss 1 time in 6


I know a Dark Angels player who can prove you wrong despite the law of large numbers


million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten, established fact, as demonstrated by the sadly late Sir Terry P.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.


You miss 1 time in 6


I know a Dark Angels player who can prove you wrong despite the law of large numbers


I know you know dark angel player who is either lying or using loaded dice..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/05 09:45:32


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.
You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.


You miss 1 time in 6


I know a Dark Angels player who can prove you wrong despite the law of large numbers


let me guess, curse of the failing terminator armor?


Partially, but much more prevalent for him is the curse of the exploding plasma gunner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
I know you know dark angel player who is either lying or using loaded dice..


You just lost all rights to talk about statistics, as you clearly do not understand them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
leopard wrote:
million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten, established fact, as demonstrated by the sadly late Sir Terry P.

That genuinely made me laugh. Mork, it has been too long since I read one of his books.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/05 09:56:47


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AtoMaki wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
It was extremely rare for my Blood Angels army not to be re-rolling 1s to hit all the time, and quite often there were multiple key units getting full re-rolls on top of that. We're not going to see that in 10th and I think the end result is going to be a much reduced number of dice being re-rolled.

In 10th your entire Blood Angels army gets full re-rolls as long as you are nuking one unit, a likely event considering how this whole "less lethal" angle is spinning out. And the enemy can never remove that ability, not even with borderline miraculous feats like sniping out a character from the middle of your army. So there is that.

Which is nowhere near the same situation. I can get full re-rolls against a single target until it dies, then I get virtually none. That's just not in the same ballpark as easy access to at least re-roll 1s army wide, the whole time.
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Slipspace wrote:
I can get full re-rolls against a single target until it dies, then I get virtually none. That's just not in the same ballpark as easy access to at least re-roll 1s army wide, the whole time.

I would say nuking one unit with your entire army and full rerolls is the same ballpark as re-rolling a little bit for everyone all the time. Especially with the "less lethal" setting where wiping a unit and then having meaningful firepower to do more is supposedly no longer the norm.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





And if entire army gets rerolls it's a) silly tough unit b) you are playing in planet bowling ball or blood angels fighting over 1 objective so you get to enjoy remaining 4

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





tneva82 wrote:
And if entire army gets rerolls it's a) silly tough unit

Things being tough to kill is supposedly the new norm rather than 360-noscoping them with a single unit. So yeah, that 'a)' scenario will be probably a major deal.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well 2000 pts with full rerolls hit & wound needed to kill 1 unit would be silly extreme. Unless we are talking about 1000 pts unrt

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 AtoMaki wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
And if entire army gets rerolls it's a) silly tough unit

Things being tough to kill is supposedly the new norm rather than 360-noscoping them with a single unit. So yeah, that 'a)' scenario will be probably a major deal.


A unit that tough is likely not being shot at by the Bolter Boys. A unit that numerous is likely not shot at by the Lascannon Boys. A far more likely scenario is Guilliman doubling up Oath targets, or using Oath for one or the other and trying to hand out alternate reroll sources to the other target band(s).

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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