Switch Theme:

Elusive Dates  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

Is it just me or is there an issue with providing precise dates of events in 40k? For me it seems to be even an issue getting a date for something using Lexicanum or the Fandom. I will see years, but that's about it if and when they are there.

Why is this so? Is it that the lore is supposed to be loosley defined so it can be retconned in the future? or a way authors who don't know all the lore themselves avoid collisions?

I find that missing dates, is a pretty big inhibitor to learning about stuff outside of reading every book, of which may not even include anything precise.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

I'd like to hear from both lore novices and scholars on this.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






This should cover it.

   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

Aye... Thanks. Gonna have to rewatch that, I'm terrible with sorting numbers. It is helpful, except for the modern era, I guess it's whatever you want.

I have the Iron Hands and BT codex supplements and while there is like two or three dates for events in the Iron Hands codex, I recall being a bit annoyed over the lack of them in the BT codex.

I just skimed through both again and yeah, BT codex is lacking, but has plenty of events to discuss.

That said, I suppose if many books do, and or aids actually have precise dates for events, then my complaint is mostly with lore commentary and the two references I mentioned neither of which are official.

But this will be helpful at least, I didn't realize he had this video. I haven't watched too many of Arbitor Ian, but maybe I'll start.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






From 8th edition onwards, GW largely stopped bothering to give events dates (and then backtracked on when the 'present day' even was).
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The most important thing to remember is that the Imperium has:
A - Shocking record keeping.
B - Millions of worlds with their own dating systems alongside a huge amount of starships that traverse time and space in the Warp.
C - Interstellar communications that are conveyed by literal thoughts and prayers.
The easiest thing to do is pick the big number i.e. M(x), and then maybe add something between 001 and 999 before it i.e. 258.M37.
Even if you end up making a wobble in the timeline, there are many valid ways to explain it away.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gert wrote:
The most important thing to remember is that the Imperium has:
A - Shocking record keeping.
B - Millions of worlds with their own dating systems alongside a huge amount of starships that traverse time and space in the Warp.
C - Interstellar communications that are conveyed by literal thoughts and prayers.
The easiest thing to do is pick the big number i.e. M(x), and then maybe add something between 001 and 999 before it i.e. 258.M37.
Even if you end up making a wobble in the timeline, there are many valid ways to explain it away.


Clearly the Ordo Chronos's work.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

Haha I figured. I get it from a verse standpoint, and it's also conventient for the lore writers for it to be this way.

I'm just strictly talking from from fan / newb / pleb point of view, lore scryer, and mild deep diver.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The thing is, while we can say it's convenient for the writers, current human history isn't exactly perfect. There are big chunks of our history that we aren't sure about. The Trojan War for example, was often considered to be entirely allegorical or mythical but over time more evidence has come to light that supports the idea that it was in some form a real conflict.

And sure the Imperium has lasers and starships but culturally it's regressed immensely compared to the modern day. While you or I could just pop on our phones, turn on the 4G, and search the internet for the leader of the Roman Empire in 200CE, that's not a thing in the Imperium. Their histories are recorded on parchment made from cured flesh, often human because it decays far less than paper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 23:33:02


 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

I got it... I have no doubt Gert you know more about the designer intents. I think leaving it this way (while it's not a high bar to hurdle) is still somewhat a unsual practice if you ask me, whether that should discorage anyone is a matter of opinion.

Personally I'll keep trudging until I find what I'm looking for or discover something else in the lore I hadn't.

If we do consider wiki well, not that it's a pristine example here, but no doubt much easier to get your timelines and events together where you can search them out from there.

Fandom seems to have more dates than Lexicanium, but that's just from my usage, Lexi could be better or equal no clue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 23:41:34


   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I don't know jack about designer intent, just giving some historical context about history as a whole
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

Well I do love researching history too. I haven't seem to have had the frustrations doing it like I have with 40k.

But it's not a deal breaker to me at least. Just, going by how I feel when looking for things.

   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

There is also the very real time instability within 40k. Time is relative and across a galaxy spanning Imperium torn asunder by a hole in reality itself its not going to be easy to pin down.

Really the best anyone in the setting can do is say it happened at this time-ish...

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Grey Templar wrote:
There is also the very real time instability within 40k. Time is relative and across a galaxy spanning Imperium torn asunder by a hole in reality itself its not going to be easy to pin down.

Really the best anyone in the setting can do is say it happened at this time-ish...

There was an in-universe system of dating which accounted for exactly this problem.

But GW abandoned that...
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW originally had dates and a timeline. It moved forward at 1 real year to 1 40K year until around 3rd edition when it got frozen at 999.M41. Things got more untenable as more and more events piled up, all seemingly within the last year 999.M41 creating situations where there was no time to do anything as characters had to be off to the next warzone within a few days or weeks. Discrepancies were spotted in the timeline too by readers, as GW had a very lax attitude with regards to keeping things consistent even within their own timeline, which in-universe was attributed to the time-distortion effects of warp travel and communication. However IMO it was just GW and its whole "can't be bothered" attitude. GW fans probably kept a better track of the timeline than GW, such as when I spotted a major time discrepancy in Gav Thorpe's Jain Zarr novel, that actually would have really destroyed the whole plot.

Then around 8th edition, GW has "solved" that problem by throwing out the dating system. More specifically by invoking the timey wimey distortion of the Great Rift and its differing effects on different places in the galaxy, and by saying Guilliman discovered that so many inaccuracies had crept into the old Imperial dating system that it was unclear whether it was the 41st or 42nd millenium given the wide window of possible error.

Afterwards GW didn't even bother to give dates to events and only seems now to vaguely place some events in relation to others. The problem is that as readers it makes it hard to piece together a coherent chronology of things, except in the vaguest terms. We know for example Guilliman sets off on his Indomitus Crusade and the various fleets set off at different times. We know that some novels take place after others, but how much later is very fuzzy. This makes it hard to construct a coherent grand timeline of events. From snippets in fiction, we might be able to conclude that Event D happened between Events A and B, but did Event C happen before or after Event D and by how much? Unless there is some direct reference in some fiction, it becomes next to impossible to say.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

Iracundus wrote:
The problem is that as readers it makes it hard to piece together a coherent chronology of things, except in the vaguest terms.


Thank you, I thought it was just me.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Adeptekon wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
The problem is that as readers it makes it hard to piece together a coherent chronology of things, except in the vaguest terms.


Thank you, I thought it was just me.


This isn’t a problem, but a feature.

Arbitor Ian has a nice video about the dating system in 40k:

https://youtu.be/9YJAf2w4M3Y

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/13 07:35:41


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





There's actually currently a civil war among various Inquisition forces over what year it is.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's actually currently a civil war among various Inquisition forces over what year it is.



Fantastic! I can't wait to learn more about this!

   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






I imagine that being an archaeologist or historian in the Imperium must be a pretty fun job...

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Iron_Captain wrote:
I imagine that being an archaeologist or historian in the Imperium must be a pretty fun job...

It literally is because if the Remembrancers are any measure then being a historian in the Imperium is the same as being a Black Library writer. Complete with the corpo suits whining when your fanfic-tier "story" upsets too many readers and causes a PR crash. The difference is that those corpo suits will kill you if your story is really that bad.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: