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For those of you who don't know what a Cybernetica Cortex is:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cybernetica_Cortex
Basically it's a Horus Heresy era wetware nonsapient AI installed in every Automata in the Legio Cybernetica.

So what's stopping Tech Priests from installing these in Knights, Titans, and Warships and not bothering with the whole Knight and Princep stuff?

Is it Tech Heresy? I mean we got Thanatar battle automata in the 41K right? So why's it heretical to just make a bigger Thanatar? (aka knight or titan class battle automata)

If it is Tech Heresy, is there anything stopping a Heretek from doing the above? What's stopping a Heretek from pulling a Fabius Bile except with Cybernetic Battle Automata instead clones? (other than vat grown bioplastic to manufacture said Knight, Titan, and Warship cyborgs).

If I had to spitball a guess it would be the level of complexity in what's being controlled, along with the usual grimdark ignorance/degradation of tech.

Controlling a relatively small humanoid robot on a planet is a lot easier than a titan with a ton of subsidiary systems. And a starship would be orders of magnitude more complex on top of that.

For the most part it's a combination of advanced or complicated technologies, rituals and religion with the major problem being the never ending warfare the Imperium finds itself in.
When a Forge World needs to be constantly supplying desperately needed arms and equipment to every branch of the Imperium more specialised projects take a back seat.
After all a Titan is a huge resource and manpower drain that could be used elsewhere to produce measures that hold the line rather than break it.

For Cortex Controllers specifically, there's no given background reason but it is noted in some of the HH Black Books that those machines that used the device started to portray individualistic behaviours over the course of the Heresy to the point where it almost seemed like some units were actively pursuing cruelty towards the foe or specific vendetta's.

Considering the post-Heresy Mechanicus very specifically uses robots that have their behaviours strictly controlled by data wafers with constant Datasmith attendants, it is my belief that the Mechanicus (having witnessed the horrors of the Heresy) decided that all Cortex Controlled automata were to be removed from service as they had the potential to become Abominable Intelligences.
But that's just my theory.

Knights and Titans already have existing Machine Spirits. Indeed part of the crew’s job is to rein in the Machine Spirit’s instinct as much as it to unleash them.

To use a Cortex would be putting a machine in charge of another machine. Which seems…unwise.

Plus you absolutely can indoctrinate a human bean.

They remember the Dark Age of Technology, and the Death of Innocence.

roboemperor wrote:
I mean we got Thanatar battle automata in the 41K right?

Do we?

No we don't. At least not on any widespread scale. There may be a few lying in ancient warehouses and caches that are discovered or hoarded by Tech-Priests that refuse to share with others, but they are not in general use any more due to the post-Heresy views on the Cybernetica Cortex being on the slippery slope to AI. I imagine anybody found using them leaves themselves open to accusations of being a Heretek.

Do you really want to put an complex, barely understood AI in control of an entire battleship?
That's just a recipe for disaster, especially when AIs in 40k tend to get corrupted or go rogue.

beast_gts wrote:
They remember the Dark Age of Technology, and the Death of Innocence.

Cybernetica Cortexes are not abominable intelligence, and they were widely used in the Horus Heresy.

beast_gts wrote:
Do we?

I think we do.
"At the November 2016 Weekender the author confirmed Automata, such as the mighty Thanatar, will soon be handing out cortex controlled carnage to the Tau and other enemies of the Imperium. "
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legio_Cybernetica#Thanatar-Class_Robot
But you know, 1d4chan is far from reliable.

The knights are nobels houses that make their living and justify their existence by going off on quests and wars. All of that goes away if you just have an ai controlling it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember that the imperium believes that complex AI is evil and the superiority of the human mind (even if you replace parts of it with machine components)

roboemperor wrote:
Cybernetica Cortexes are not abominable intelligence, and they were widely used in the Horus Heresy.

Yes with the Mechanicum which was far less dogmatic and oppressive than the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also see the aforementioned suspected evolution of automata such as Castellax and Vorax during said Heresy.

I think we do.
"At the November 2016 Weekender the author confirmed Automata, such as the mighty Thanatar, will soon be handing out cortex controlled carnage to the Tau and other enemies of the Imperium. "
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legio_Cybernetica#Thanatar-Class_Robot
But you know, 1d4chan is far from reliable.

That was pre-8th when FW was going to do another Imperial Armour book. It has since been very canceled.

Yeah, it was probably going to be in "Fires of Cyraxus" before it got cancelled.

I can't be the only one thinking about Pacific Rim 2 here- and look how good that turned out for the humans..

I'm probably missing some distinction here, but isn't this sort of kind of what the heretech lady in the first few Ahriman novels and Khayon's sister in the Talon of Horus books do? They essentially sync up their minds/nervous systems with their ships in a fashion that seems very similar to how knight/titan pilots sync up with their machines, right down to suffering physical injuries when their machines are damaged.

And I feel like we see space marines do something similar in various novels when they hook up to their command cradles.

What am I missing?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm probably missing some distinction here, but isn't this sort of kind of what the heretech lady in the first few Ahriman novels and Khayon's sister in the Talon of Horus books do? They essentially sync up their minds/nervous systems with their ships in a fashion that seems very similar to how knight/titan pilots sync up with their machines, right down to suffering physical injuries when their machines are damaged.

And I feel like we see space marines do something similar in various novels when they hook up to their command cradles.

What am I missing?

Cybernetica Cortexes are essentially human version of Canoptek AI. Capable of autonomy and strategy but explicitly not sapient.

I'm asking why don't they make all Titans and Knights run by Imperium's Canoptek AI equivalent instead of dealing with the whole knight and princep thing especially since Princeps are exceedingly rare.

roboemperor wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm probably missing some distinction here, but isn't this sort of kind of what the heretech lady in the first few Ahriman novels and Khayon's sister in the Talon of Horus books do? They essentially sync up their minds/nervous systems with their ships in a fashion that seems very similar to how knight/titan pilots sync up with their machines, right down to suffering physical injuries when their machines are damaged.

And I feel like we see space marines do something similar in various novels when they hook up to their command cradles.

What am I missing?

Cybernetica Cortexes are essentially human version of Canoptek AI. Capable of autonomy and strategy but explicitly not sapient.

I'm asking why don't they make all Titans and Knights run by Imperium's Canoptek AI equivalent instead of dealing with the whole knight and princep thing especially since Princeps are exceedingly rare.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

From the article you linked...

The result is a superior self-guided machine that will act with a degree of tactical sense and self-preservation beyond a Servitor...

... I kind of get the impression that these things are still pretty low-intelligence. Being smarter than a servitor isn't a high bar to clear, and a "degree of tactical sense" isn't a ringing endorsement. Considering how expensive titans and battleships are and the high esteem in which they're held, I'm guessing the mechanicus just prefers to have them piloted by humans. Battleships especially, which don't have the limiting factor of needing a Princeps, can be commanded by some of the best and brightest the navy can get their hands on. And while I don't fully buy that second-to-second decision-making is as important for a titan as GW/Black Library tells me it is, I could still see the benefit of having a Princeps that you can sit down and have a detailed strategy meeting with before the battle.

The problem isn't how smart the machine is, it's that it can make independent decisions at all.

If a Titan crew is killed the Titan is basically a big statue. If the bearer of a Cortex Controller is killed then its automata charges can still make decisions and actions. What if they decide that the best tactical option is to switch sides and attack their former masters?

Machines will either be human controlled or not used because it is too dangerous for the Imperium to do otherwise. The Imperium isn't going to replace the blessed purity of the human form with a thinking machine.

We also have to remember that this is the same imperium which is happier to breed cloned human bodies to then create servitors and servoskulls and cogitators and such using actual human brains and such - rather than use AI.



I think the other thing is that the Imperium is aware of is that corruption by forces of Chaos or other elements is a big risk. It's an even bigger risk with AI because it can happen so insanely fast (humans often take time to corrupt); and because machines can link-up very readily.

1 Corrupted human can turn a whole world, but it takes time. Time where you can catch and stop them.
1 Corrupted machine could corrupt a whole assembly line in milliseconds; a whole world taken in moments.

That's an insane potential threat level when you consider the size of the Imperium and the power of Chaos and Xenos forces that the Imperium faces.




It's certainly enough to make them very scared to change their ways.
Which is another layer; positions of power let people afford to live longer and longer. So many things are set in stone because those in power have been in power with their viewpoints and opinions, for a very long time. Long enough that new generations know nothing but those in power being in power and those in power have shaped new generations into their logical train of thought.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

From the article you linked...

The result is a superior self-guided machine that will act with a degree of tactical sense and self-preservation beyond a Servitor...

... I kind of get the impression that these things are still pretty low-intelligence. Being smarter than a servitor isn't a high bar to clear, and a "degree of tactical sense" isn't a ringing endorsement. Considering how expensive titans and battleships are and the high esteem in which they're held, I'm guessing the mechanicus just prefers to have them piloted by humans. Battleships especially, which don't have the limiting factor of needing a Princeps, can be commanded by some of the best and brightest the navy can get their hands on. And while I don't fully buy that second-to-second decision-making is as important for a titan as GW/Black Library tells me it is, I could still see the benefit of having a Princeps that you can sit down and have a detailed strategy meeting with before the battle.

Another thing is, Cybernetica Cortexes can be controlled by a Tech Priest, which is a lot more easier to come by than Princeps. So I'm thinking, is there really a difference in performance between a Princep controlled Titan or a Tech Priest directing a Cybernetica Cortex Titan? Like you said, I highly doubt a Titan's combat performance can be improved with pilot skill. I don't see how a Titan would require anything other than like a tank commander or a ship captain for maximum combat efficiency because you know, it's a slow ass lumbering war machine with massive weapons not requiring any accuracy other than shoot towards the thing.

"Cortex Controller

This control and signalling device uses data-djinnto command Battle-automata fitted with Cyberneticacortex systems, allowing the wielder to witness the battlefield through the automata’s own senses as well as monitor their status and exact precise control over their actions.Only the most highly experienced and specifically augmented adepts of the Mechanicum and the Forge Lords of the LegionesAstartescan hope to fathom the use of these fractious devices and successfully interpret the storm of data streaming from their un-livingminions."

Mechanicum Taghmata Army List p.110

 Gert wrote:
If a Titan crew is killed the Titan is basically a big statue.

No. If the Titan crew is killed the Titan becomes a wild animal and starts rampaging like a wild animal except instead of fangs and claws it rampages with city destroying weapons.

And the Imperium has a backup for that too.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harpoon_Missile

I was gonna make a new thread asking why every Knight and Titan isn't built with the "device" that lets a tech priest take complete control over the Titan right from the get go and skip both the missile and the princep, but I'll keep it here for now.

 Gert wrote:
Machines will either be human controlled or not used because it is too dangerous for the Imperium to do otherwise. The Imperium isn't going to replace the blessed purity of the human form with a thinking machine.

Cybernetica Cortexes are human controlled. And it's explicitly a non-thinking machine.Well, not "sapient" at least.

 Overread wrote:
We also have to remember that this is the same imperium which is happier to breed cloned human bodies to then create servitors and servoskulls and cogitators and such using actual human brains and such - rather than use AI.

Cybernetica Cortexes are human brains. Or at least built with bioplastic created from grown human brains.

 Overread wrote:
I think the other thing is that the Imperium is aware of is that corruption by forces of Chaos or other elements is a big risk. It's an even bigger risk with AI because it can happen so insanely fast (humans often take time to corrupt); and because machines can link-up very readily.

1 Corrupted human can turn a whole world, but it takes time. Time where you can catch and stop them.
1 Corrupted machine could corrupt a whole assembly line in milliseconds; a whole world taken in moments.

That's an insane potential threat level when you consider the size of the Imperium and the power of Chaos and Xenos forces that the Imperium faces.

They specifically use Cybernetica Cortexes instead of AI because they can't be corrupted by Chaos.

But seeing how the majority of the Legio Cybernetica joined Horus, I'm presuming because most of their operators joined Horus rather than the battle automata being corrupted by chaos, that makes sense. Don't have a single Tech Priest in command of an army to lessen the damage a successful Chaos corruption can do.

What are your thoughts about Imperium of man not building the "device" that lets them completely control a Titan built in to the Titan right from the get go and skip both the missile and the Princep? Tech Priest in complete control over the Titan sounds better than needing to search the entirety of the Imperium for Princeps right?

Then you fundamentally misunderstand Titans and the dogma at the core of both the Imperium and the Mechanicus. The skill of a Princeps isn't just about shooting guns and walking, it's tactics and strategy alongside the ability to master the incredibly complex systems of a Titan. Commanding a tank is simple compared to the god engines of the Titan Legions.
Princeps bring man and machine together in a union of the very soul and with this union, the Princeps essentially becomes the Titan they command. The Moderati and Techpriests keep the technology running that allows the Princeps to command the Titan but it is the Princeps that makes it walk and fight.
To be chosen is to be blessed with becoming an avatar of the Omnissiah and is the closest a member of the Cult Mechanicus will ever come to truly knowing their god.



That isn't true. Titans have to have some form of crew to operate them and the command crew, especially the Princeps, are the most important. A Cortex Controller is too simple to enact the bond made between a Princeps and the Machine Spirit of a Titan and if the Cortex were more advanced it would start to be classified as AI.

As for that weapon system, arming and rearming Titans is a lengthy and difficult process. A Titan can't just swap out guns mid-battle, especially if other Titan class foes are present.



Nope, Cybernetica Automata were both corrupted by Chaos influence of the Dark Mechanicum and got possessed by Daemons during the Heresy. There is absolutely nothing to show that this technology was resistant to Chaos.

There’s also the trouble of recalibrating the cortex to a new body.

Consider the technologies involved could’ve been made centuries, possibly even millennia apart.

Even if such recalibrating was as simple as “the dimensions of the construct you now control are X by Y by Z”? There’s absolutely no guarantee of the conversion being that accurate.

Example? If the cortex is programmed in hands, spans, and cubits? How do you translate that into inches, feet and miles? And is that a London mile, or a Winchester mile? Becuajse those just aren’t the same thing. Get it wrong, and it’s either gonna short step and be slow, or over step the stride and end up toppling over.

Keep in mind all may very well be the product of the STC. But once off out into the void, there’s nothing in particular to say STC’s were networked. Even if some were networked? It doesn’t mean all were.

And so as each rose to the challenge of a new world, the resulting designs spat out, assembled, replicated or 3D printed would by no means be standardised across the galaxy. Because it was never meant to be. The whole point wasn’t “one size fits all”. It was all about fitting the need to the environment.