Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With films like Maleficent, Cruella, and now Wicked we're on a slow roll for trying to rehabilitate villains in the public eye. Any guesses who will be the next to get a film where we learn "they weren't really bad it was society that was real villain"?

Perhaps Jaffar knew the Sultan was driving the country to ruim through a combination of bankruptcy and upholding the caste system, and was trying to find ways to topple the system to save the citizens from the collapse of society due to the upper class' vanity. He just comes across as evil when the story is retold by the maintainers of the status quo.

Well, some of the classic villains need to be added to the list of those already made sympathetic.

1. Vlad Dracul. Did his duty to his God, and when his beloved wife believed he died in battle took her own life, was driven mad with Grief when told that self same God would’ve condemned her to hell. And then followed a series of bad decisions, but all triggered by grief and betrayal.

2. Imhotep. We love who we love. Sure it’s not the done thing to rub another man’s rhubarb, but come on. Talk about an over reaction.

Jason Voorhees?

More serious answer: The Sheriff of Nottingham. Maybe he’s more of an Order over Justice kind of guy who believes in serving the public good?

Prince of Thieves already did that.

Well. Alan Rickman did.

And to be honest, I’d love to have seen him and Tony Robinson’s Sheriff in a “Twins” type comedy film.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Jason already is something of a sympathetic character.

We can’t be sure of the original extent of his disabilities (they may only have been physical), but he did drown, so that likely caused Brain Damage, which drove his Mum insane, and then he saw her murdered, and he followed in her footsteps.

Don’t get me wrong. He’s an absolute maniac and I doubt any treatment would’ve changed that. But I don’t think we can say he chose to be by any stretch.

Hmm what about the rise of the mighty General Woundwort! Seeking to unite all of rabbitkind!

Or how about we find that Hexxus was innocent when bound into a tree for millennia and it was that which twisted him to darkness

Smaug - the tale of an innocent dragon expelled from his homeland and forced to travel the world; hated and feared by all until he tries to seek shelter in the one last deep cave he can find. The fact that its full of gold and dwarves is purely incidental as is the fact that his celebratory firebreathing was misinterpreted when his bad eyesight made him miscalculate his range and hit people rather than miss or something

Somehow, the Emperor returned, but was really just trying to fit out a fleet of glorious party wagons!

Xur was forced out of Rylos by a corrupt military industrial complex. Only the Kodan peacekeeper corps provided sanctuary and a means by which the people of the Star League could be freed from their slavery under tue remorseless watch of the gunstars!

Not necessarily a rehabilitation piece, but I think there’d be mileage in a Moriarty show, along the lines of Breaking Bad or the Sopranos. Where did he come from, what else had he done before he gets bored and starts trying to bait Sherlock Holmes, etc.?

EDIT: I'm sorry, but what I really wanted to say would get me murdered by angry football hooligans from across the pond.

So, instead, would like to see remakes of every 1980s movie told from the Russian's/Generic Communist Russia Stand In's point of view...

From Top Gun to Rambo (First Blood Part III) to Chuck Norris' Invasion U.S.A.

Clearly it'll be Doctor Doom. You don't give Robert Downy Jr a dump truck full of money to play a villain.

One thing I note though, the examples you give were all in the general category of Hawt Chix, not sure anyone would pay money to watch 2 hours of Kumail Nanjiani or whoever play poor misunderstood Jafar. But 2 hours of Angelina Jolie playing the queen lashing out at artificial beauty standards that require women to look 21 forever? Yeah I'll pay to see that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit-Amir Khan would be a better Jafar, Kumail is a bit too buff, Jafar needs to be skinny.

Speaking of KHAAAAAAAAAN! Did Khan already get rehabilitated in Star Trek Into Darkness? After all he's just trying to free his people held hostage by a lying, cheating, warmongering Federation admiral.

Possibly spoilsport, but is an at least partially sympathetic origin not a central part of making a compelling villain? That whilst we might agree with their beef, we balk at their solution?

Take Kilmonger in Black Panther. He’s clearly a loony, but he does have valid points. Not to the point where they really justify his actions of course.

Same with Magneto, who served initially as a Malcolm X analogy to Professor X’s Martin Luther King.

Given his life experience and the treatment of mutants, I don’t think anyone can say Magneto’s anger is unjustified. It’s his methods we question and criticise.

Emperor Palpatine? Or maybe Jabba the Hutt.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
EDIT: I'm sorry, but what I really wanted to say would get me murdered by angry football hooligans from across the pond.

So, instead, would like to see remakes of every 1980s movie told from the Russian's/Generic Communist Russia Stand In's point of view...

From Top Gun to Rambo (First Blood Part III) to Chuck Norris' Invasion U.S.A.

Tangential, but I kinda want a setting where all those weapon tests the US did on their own civilians during the Cold War were actually high tech Russian attacks but the CIA was so embarrassed they said they did it to themselves rather than admit the breach.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

More serious answer: The Sheriff of Nottingham. Maybe he’s more of an Order over Justice kind of guy who believes in serving the public good?

Funny enough, this one has some historical merit, if not in the Sheriff, but in Prince John. His brother basically abandons his duties as king to go tour the world with most of the treasury in tow. There's definitely evidence historically that he was the responsible little brother trying to do the job his brother ignored to go partying. His most iconic act of villainy largely comes down to... collecting the money to pay for his brother's adventures after all.

Lathe Biosas wrote:So, instead, would like to see remakes of every 1980s movie told from the Russian's/Generic Communist Russia Stand In's point of view...

If it wasn’t for current world events, something from the Soviet point of view could definitely be interesting.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Clearly it'll be Doctor Doom. You don't give Robert Downy Jr a dump truck full of money to play a villain.

I’m not so sure, I think he might like to have a go at some moustache twirling as a change of pace. Also a good way to keep the audience on their toes; if everyone’s expecting him to turn out to be a hero (or at least a mis-understood antagonist), they could tease that throughout the film and then have him be like “nah, JK” and blow up the hostages (or whatever).

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Possibly spoilsport, but is an at least partially sympathetic origin not a central part of making a compelling villain? That whilst we might agree with their beef, we balk at their solution?

Take Kilmonger in Black Panther. He’s clearly a loony, but he does have valid points. Not to the point where they really justify his actions of course.

Same with Magneto, who served initially as a Malcolm X analogy to Professor X’s Martin Luther King.

Given his life experience and the treatment of mutants, I don’t think anyone can say Magneto’s anger is unjustified. It’s his methods we question and criticise.

I was unimpressed with Black Panther initially, because the third act is very “generic Marvel boss battle”, but on re-watching the two things that elevate it for me are a) Chadwick Boseman and Michael B Jordan’s performances and b) that at the end T’Challa basically does what Killmonger wanted, although in a different way. He realises that Wakandan isolationism was a mistake and that they should actively be using the power and knowledge to make the world a better place. I can’t think of another film where the hero gets to the end and goes “you know what, that guy was a loony, but he had a point.”

LunarSol wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

More serious answer: The Sheriff of Nottingham. Maybe he’s more of an Order over Justice kind of guy who believes in serving the public good?

Funny enough, this one has some historical merit, if not in the Sheriff, but in Prince John. His brother basically abandons his duties as king to go tour the world with most of the treasury in tow. There's definitely evidence historically that he was the responsible little brother trying to do the job his brother ignored to go partying. His most iconic act of villainy largely comes down to... collecting the money to pay for his brother's adventures after all.

Agreed, although I don’t know how you can make a tax collector a sympathetic figure, no matter how justified!

 Jadenim wrote:
Not necessarily a rehabilitation piece, but I think there’d be mileage in a Moriarty show, along the lines of Breaking Bad or the Sopranos. Where did he come from, what else had he done before he gets bored and starts trying to bait Sherlock Holmes, etc.?

I mean, the Professor in his title tells you his past was in teaching. Before he got bored and turned to crime as something to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Clearly it'll be Doctor Doom. You don't give Robert Downy Jr a dump truck full of money to play a villain.

One thing I note though, the examples you give were all in the general category of Hawt Chix, not sure anyone would pay money to watch 2 hours of Kumail Nanjiani or whoever play poor misunderstood Jafar. But 2 hours of Angelina Jolie playing the queen lashing out at artificial beauty standards that require women to look 21 forever? Yeah I'll pay to see that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit-Amir Khan would be a better Jafar, Kumail is a bit too buff, Jafar needs to be skinny.

Doom flip flops between anti-hero and universe killer at the drop of a hat. He could do it all in one appearance.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
One thing I note though, the examples you give were all in the general category of Hawt Chix

Easy solution. Not sure what the feminine of 'Jaffar' would be but you make the character a woman and that she was changed to a male in the retelling of the story because 1) they want to insult her and b) don't want to believe a woman could come so close to overthrowing the system. GIRL POWER! Or something like that.

 LunarSol wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

More serious answer: The Sheriff of Nottingham. Maybe he’s more of an Order over Justice kind of guy who believes in serving the public good?

Funny enough, this one has some historical merit, if not in the Sheriff, but in Prince John. His brother basically abandons his duties as king to go tour the world with most of the treasury in tow. There's definitely evidence historically that he was the responsible little brother trying to do the job his brother ignored to go partying. His most iconic act of villainy largely comes down to... collecting the money to pay for his brother's adventures after all.

To quote from David Mitchell’s book Unruly, “[king John] was a horrible person and his reign was spectacularly unsuccessful”


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also he may have personally murdered his teenage nephew.

Since it's not a good time to do a Soviets as heroes film, I'll go back to my original idea:

I think it's time to have a football movie where Manchester United is the heroic FC that has to overcome the villainous Manchester City FC.

Gargamel.

Turns out he was just a reclusive but nature-loving philosopher minding his own business in his family castle until some spiteful little goblins wouldn't stop tormenting his cat...

 insaniak wrote:
Gargamel.

Turns out he was just a reclusive but nature-loving philosopher minding his own business in his family castle until some spiteful little goblins wouldn't stop tormenting his cat...

The Smurf Revolution : A Neo-Soviet Tale

In a quaint little village hidden deep within the enchanted forest, the Smurfs had taken a rather unexpected turn. Under the leadership of Papa Smurf, they had embraced a neo-Soviet ideology, believing that the collective good of the Smurf community was paramount. The Smurf village was now a bustling hub of communal living, where every Smurf contributed to the greater good, and individualism was a thing of the past.

The Smurfs had their own version of the five-year plan, which involved growing the biggest crops of blueberries and crafting the finest mushroom houses. They held regular meetings in the Great Smurf Hall, where they discussed the importance of equality among Smurfs and the need to share everything from food to tools. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need!” they would chant, their little blue fists raised in solidarity.

However, not everyone was on board with this new Smurf regime. Gargamel, the notorious wizard, had always been a thorn in the side of the Smurfs, but now he had taken on a new role: a freedom fighter. With his trusty cat Azrael by his side, Gargamel was determined to dismantle the Smurf communist utopia. He believed in the power of individualism and the right of every creature to pursue their own happiness—especially if that happiness involved capturing Smurfs for his potions.

Gargamel devised a plan to infiltrate the Smurf village. Disguised as a Smurf himself, he painted his face blue and donned a makeshift Smurf hat. “I’m Smurfinski!” he declared, trying to blend in. The Smurfs, ever trusting, welcomed him with open arms, eager to share their communal meals and stories of Smurf solidarity.

As Gargamel mingled with the Smurfs, he began to sow the seeds of dissent. “Why should you all wear the same hat?” he asked one day, pointing to their identical blue caps. “What if you want a red one? Or a green one? Individuality is what makes you special!” The Smurfs, initially confused, began to murmur among themselves.

Meanwhile, Azrael was busy plotting his own mischief. The clever cat had taken to sneaking around the village, stealing the Smurfs’ prized blueberries and leaving behind little notes that read, “Freedom tastes sweet!” The Smurfs were baffled. Who could be behind this blueberry heist?

As the days went by, Gargamel’s influence grew. The Smurfs started to question their collective lifestyle. “Maybe we should have a blueberry festival where everyone can showcase their own recipes!” suggested Smurfette, inspired by Gargamel’s ideas. The village was abuzz with excitement, and soon, the first-ever Smurf Blueberry Festival was planned.

On the day of the festival, Gargamel saw his chance. He revealed his true identity, shouting, “I’m not Smurfinski! I’m Gargamel, and I’m here to liberate you from this Smurf tyranny!” The Smurfs gasped in shock, but the seeds of individualism had already been planted.

In a surprising twist, the Smurfs rallied together, not to defend their communist ideals, but to embrace a new vision of freedom. “We can be a community and still celebrate our individuality!” declared Papa Smurf. Gargamel, realizing he had inadvertently sparked a revolution, decided to join forces with the Smurfs.

Together, they transformed the Smurf village into a place where everyone could express themselves freely, while still working together for the common good. Gargamel and Azrael became honorary Smurfs, and the village thrived like never before.

And so, in a delightful turn of events, the Smurfs learned that while communism might have its merits, a sprinkle of individuality and a dash of freedom could create a truly magical community. As for Gargamel and Azrael, they found themselves not just as freedom fighters, but as beloved members of the Smurf family, proving that even the most unlikely allies can come together for a common cause.

The end.

Narnia told from the perspective of the White Witch? She was just trying to combat climate change until those nasty snotty children turned up.

 Kroem wrote:
Narnia told from the perspective of the White Witch? She was just trying to combat climate change until those nasty snotty children turned up.

Actually I could 100% see them trying to do her origin story one day. Since there's almost nothing of her world or origin story within the original books they could do basically whatever they wanted if they tried that

 Overread wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
Narnia told from the perspective of the White Witch? She was just trying to combat climate change until those nasty snotty children turned up.

Actually I could 100% see them trying to do her origin story one day. Since there's almost nothing of her world or origin story within the original books they could do basically whatever they wanted if they tried that

Agreed, that might be a great story to tell. It can even keep her as an evil witch, but the concept of her and Aslan in combat, entwined with the deep magic from the dawn of time is a pretty enticing concept.

And much less racist than A Horse and His Boy...

My recollection (and its been years) is that she never really encountered Aslan until Narnia. He knew what she was and she kind of knew what he was (though I don't think she ever truly appreciated/realised until the end). But I don't think they ever fought before.

Her world, her original world, was a different one to Narnia and just one of many many others.


As for Horse and his Boy I don't recall it being any more racist than any other book that has different cultures who, within the story, hate each other. Unless you mean that the horse generally disregards all men as inferior

Literally just sat and watched the BBC Prince Caspian adaptation, and thought "better just have a butchers on dakka".

The Narnia movies were ace and a happy middle ground between LOTR and the other one with a wizard, with a bit of Oz mixed in. I liked that bit of triumphant music at the end of the trailers "DUN-DUN-DUN-DUN-DAAAA-DUN!" or whatever it was. I was quite sad that they didn't do another one after Dawn Treader, as that was bloody good and Will Poulter deserved another big screen outing. Thankfully the BBC series had a bash with The Silver Chair which had the pleasure of no less than Tom Baker himself.

Next villian to have their own movie? Morgoth and Ungoliant would be worth an animated feature of their own...

SamusDrake wrote:
Literally just sat and watched the BBC Prince Caspian adaptation, and thought "better just have a butchers on dakka".

The Narnia movies were ace and a happy middle ground between LOTR and the other one with a wizard, with a bit of Oz mixed in. I liked that bit of triumphant music at the end of the trailers "DUN-DUN-DUN-DUN-DAAAA-DUN!" or whatever it was. I was quite sad that they didn't do another one after Dawn Treader, as that was bloody good and Will Poulter deserved another big screen outing. Thankfully the BBC series had a bash with The Silver Chair which had the pleasure of no less than Tom Baker himself.

Next villian to have their own movie? Morgoth and Ungoliant would be worth an animated feature of their own...

Whilst they were limited on budget I found the BBC Adaptations of Narina to be great. They were attempting, within their budget, to be as faithful to the original material as they could in tone and story.

The more recent films were vastly bigger in budget (and benefitted from over a decade of advances in CGI); but story wise they were inferior. They changed things; shifted them around - heck the newer Dawn Treader wasn't even trying to be close to the original as it jumped off with some random subplot or something about dark energy or something. It's a shame as they did some great scenes like the battle at the end of Lion Witch and Wardrobe and the movie budget and advances in CGI lets you do stuff today that can really convey a fantasy world - at least in ways that otherwise you could only do with full animation.

I still have never seen the most epic battle from Narnia on film.

Children with swords versus a single chair.

One villain whose entire on-screen existence is slipping in and out of rehab?

Gul Dukat, from Deep Space Nine.

Ooooooooh he’s a right bar steward, isn’t he! But a charming one, and when the mood and benefits take him? A useful and valuable ally to have.

 Overread wrote:


As for Horse and his Boy I don't recall it being any more racist than any other book that has different cultures who, within the story, hate each other. Unless you mean that the horse generally disregards all men as inferior

I read it to my kids recently and the whole framing of the blatantly Muslim Middle Eastern derived side are cowardly, slovenly, corrupt and fundamentally untrustworthy, while on absolute first sight of the pale skinned Narnians and with no other context or evidence the Boy instantly knows them to be noble and awesome and generally superior.

Maybe I’m being overly sensitive to it, given when it was written, but it just seems to have an underlying judgement that is about as well hidden as the Christian allegory going on in the series