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Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Ottawa

For power-armored models with a 32mm base size, Sororitas infantry sure drop like flies, and as a result, the nuns with guns don't really play like the semi-elite army they are supposed to be. In the current edition, cover no longer increases their save to 2+... At best, it can help against attacks with AP. Speaking of AP, their 6++ is all but symbolic, since an attack needs AP -4 for it to be relevant (and such attacks are both few in number and seldom wasted on infantry).

The easiest fix would be an extra Wound. Probably explainable by their spirit of sacrifice, pushing them to soldier on past a point where most sane people would just sit tight and wait for a medic.

Another option (albeit one that would likely require a new edition) is to give them T4, with Marines going up to T5 just like Orks.

A Sororitas subfaction used to have Feel No Pain 6+, but I think an army-wide FNP involves a bit too much dice-rolling, especially for Dmg2 attacks.

.

Cadians, Sisters of Battle, Drukhari

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest







What armies are you fighting against?

 BorderCountess wrote:
Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
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SamusDrake wrote:
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Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Ottawa

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
What armies are you fighting against?

Latest was tyranids with almost only monsters.

My opponent actually seemed surprised that SoB infantry was only 1W each. I guess they do look like they should be more resilient, given their base sizes.

Cadians, Sisters of Battle, Drukhari

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





So all you're doing is pushing the ball down the road, not really fixing anything.

We've already seen runaway stat creep on marines, and people will complain if anything gets close to them which will cause them to get worse again.


   
Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Ottawa

 Hellebore wrote:
We've already seen runaway stat creep on marines, and people will complain if anything gets close to them which will cause them to get worse again.

Have Marine stats really increased all that much, aside from an extra Wound and Attack? I think the issue with them isn't excessive stats, but excessive rules. As the poster boys of the entire game, they're supposed to be a straightforward and beginner-friendly army, which should translate as excellent stats but a minimum of rules to keep track of.

Custodes are T6, and I think Marines are closer to Custodes than they are to guardsmen.

.

Cadians, Sisters of Battle, Drukhari

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well they've gone from 1W to 2W, terminators are now T5 3W! and gravis is T6...

Custodes have also scaled creeped up from T5.


The real problem is that the game is innately skewed by the majority of armies being T4+ W2+ Sv3+.

Which sets an expectation of what's normal.

A sister with a 3+ save should be considered relatively elite, that it's not says more about the issues of marines in general than sisters.


And unfortunately it won't stop - marines are either not tough enough or can't kill other marines easily enough so you end up with them getting tougher, then they get better guns to kill the 90% other marines that you will have to fight, then they have to get tougher.

It's a seesaw of marine ego stroking that has no winner, just forever improving marines so that they alternately seem the killiest or the toughest.

   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest







I was looking over my Knight/AdMech list and I don't have very many AP-4 weapons.

I fear Sisters more, due to the meltas galore.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
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SamusDrake wrote:
If unpainted models are good enough for Zeus, then they're good enough for me.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Honestly, I feel like my sisters are about right at the moment. Bolters and power armor will reliably win out against lasguns and flakk. We're noticably harder to shift than something like a bunch of gants or guardsmen. Our bolters basically +1 to wound versus T2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 compared to a lasgun. And simultaneously, our lower Toughness and melee Strength keeps our statline significantly distinct from that of marines.

The 6++ is kind of pointless, but it's also mostly there for flavor or to guarantee with a miracle die in the even that it actually matters.

I definitely don't want to see sisters suddenly matching marine toughness. And shifting marine toughness up again just creates a domino effect of needing to make space for other stuff (like custodes) to feel sufficiently "special" with their own stats. And then you're messing with the math on weapons with marines suddenly being harder to wound with weapons that currently specialize in killing them and so forth.

Other armies are allowed to be cool too. It's a very lethal game at the moment. You're going to be picking up models.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Grovelin' Grot



California

A better change would be to just allow Sisters of Battle to get a +1 to Armor if they're in cover regardless of their Armor Save.

I don't know why Games Workshop implemented that 3+ limit for armor anyway. This game is still very offensive heavy. Being in cover should be rewarded even for Marines and SOB.
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Calbear wrote:
A better change would be to just allow Sisters of Battle to get a +1 to Armor if they're in cover regardless of their Armor Save.

I don't know why Games Workshop implemented that 3+ limit for armor anyway. This game is still very offensive heavy. Being in cover should be rewarded even for Marines and SOB.
Because it makes perverse incentives, relative to the lore.

Power armored people should be, if not FEARLESS, at least brave in the face of small arms fire-bolters, lasguns, autoguns, etc.
Cultists in a t-shirt should not.

But, with Cover as +1 to your Armor save, that makes a Marine in cover literally twice as durable against an AP0 weapon if it can bump them to a 2+, whereas the 6+ save Cultist gets a 25% boost.
It would incentivize you to hug cover with well-armored models and be fearless with poorly-armored models.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 JNAProductions wrote:
Calbear wrote:
A better change would be to just allow Sisters of Battle to get a +1 to Armor if they're in cover regardless of their Armor Save.

I don't know why Games Workshop implemented that 3+ limit for armor anyway. This game is still very offensive heavy. Being in cover should be rewarded even for Marines and SOB.
Because it makes perverse incentives, relative to the lore.

Power armored people should be, if not FEARLESS, at least brave in the face of small arms fire-bolters, lasguns, autoguns, etc.
Cultists in a t-shirt should not.

But, with Cover as +1 to your Armor save, that makes a Marine in cover literally twice as durable against an AP0 weapon if it can bump them to a 2+, whereas the 6+ save Cultist gets a 25% boost.
It would incentivize you to hug cover with well-armored models and be fearless with poorly-armored models.


I don't mind marines (or sisters) hugging cover. The issue to me was having to constantly chew through 2+ saves. Especially in combination with Armor of Contempt. That was a level of durability that needed 9th edition levels of lethality to break through. Which of course meant that the same offense handling 2+ saves with AOC was just deleting units with less durability than that.

But yeah. I don't think durability is a big problem for sisters right now. Especially - and I don't mean to imply they should be dying in droves - when you consider that dying is a big part of how they fuel their army-wide mechanic. You don't really wanted custodes-tough sisters.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in fi
Posts with Authority






No, just no. This path of upping infantry statlines will take the game nowhere. Would be much better to lower the overall lethality of weapons IMHO

"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" 
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard






I disagree, a 3+ Sv is pretty good and 10th removing the AP bloat from 9th means it goes pretty far this edition. I also want to say I love when the discussion turns around incentives and lore, I think that's deep interesting game design talk.
 Hellebore wrote:
Well they've gone from 1W to 2W, terminators are now T5 3W! and gravis is T6...

Custodes have also scaled creeped up from T5.


The real problem is that the game is innately skewed by the majority of armies being T4+ W2+ Sv3+.

Which sets an expectation of what's normal.

A sister with a 3+ save should be considered relatively elite, that it's not says more about the issues of marines in general than sisters.


And unfortunately it won't stop - marines are either not tough enough or can't kill other marines easily enough so you end up with them getting tougher, then they get better guns to kill the 90% other marines that you will have to fight, then they have to get tougher.

It's a seesaw of marine ego stroking that has no winner, just forever improving marines so that they alternately seem the killiest or the toughest.

Marines having more units that aren't the basic profile would be good for not making the baseline a Tac profile right? I know it skews things even higher, but if S5 2D is terrible against T6 3W then you are encouraging more of a mix, either with 1D or 3D and S4 or S6-7.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/22 06:28:03


 
   
 
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