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Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





With the Auxiliary Cadre detachment, I wanted to make some new homebrewed Gue'vesa rules. Let me know what you think. What point value do you think they should have?

Background:

The T’au Empire does not generally engage in static defense. But there are times where valuable positions must be held for a time and the dogged nature of the Gue'vesa make them ideal for this task.

New weapons:

Gue'vesa power blade: Given the Gue'la’s affinity for melee weapons. T’au earth caste researchers reverse engineered the Gue'la “Power Sword” to create the more practical “Power Blade.” These weapons are smaller to
be well suited for close quarters. They are far less powerful but easier to produce, allowing for mass production.

Minepods: Gue'vesa set up Minepods to defend their positions. These directional mines are remotely detonated by the Gue'vesa'ui which hurls scores of small spheres towards the enemy that are a mixture of high explosives, fragmentation and EMP munitions.

Gue'vesa

Stats:

M 6 T 3 SV +4 W 1 LD 7+ OC 1

Ranged:

Pulse Pistol (Standard Codex stats)

Melee:

Gue'vesa power blade

A 1 WS +4 S 3 AP -1 D 1

Wargear:

1 Guardian Drone (Standard Codex rules)

1 Missile Drone (Standard Codex rules)

Minepods: At the end of the movement phase if the Gue'vesa are not in engagement range of an enemy and did not move, a token can be placed to show minepods are deployed. If the unit moves the minepods are removed.

If the Gue'vesa are successfully charged when minepods are deployed then the attacking unit suffers the following attack:

A D6 BS N/A S 4 AP -1 D 1 (Ignores Cover, Torrent, anti-vehicle +4)

The Gue'vesa defender will gain “Fights First” for the reminder of the Tau players turn.

Then the minepod token is removed from play. Note: Each unit can only have one minepod in play at a time but there is no limit to how many can be deployed during the game.

Keywords: Infantry, Grenades, Gue'vesa

What do you think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/23 04:55:11


 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






It's pretty funny, from your lore to the ineffective melee stats. I think OC should probably be 2 like most battleline units. What are your thoughts on the issue?
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





OC 2 is a good idea.

I was thinking this would not be a battleline unit as none of the other auxiliaries are.

My thinking with this unit is that it is not supposed to be to a powerful unit. The Kroot are the Tau shock troops, and I did not want to overshadow them.

The melee states are consistent with AM infantry, so where I saw this unit fitting into the army are cheap objective holders.

I felt like this fit the lore (and the gameplay). If you have a high value position to defend you are going to put your Tau units there. The Gue'vesa are there to cheaply hold an objective point that are not under active threat. This allows more offensive units to move on, but allows you to hold the objective from deepskrikes or weak fast scouts that might try to scoop up an objective in the end game.

They are meant to be a "speed bump" on an objective, not a fortress. This seemed consistent to me with Tau battle doctrine and how they view their auxiliaries.

I was thinking they would cost something like 50 or 60 points. They are meant to be a cheap way to hold objectives and 10 SV +4 wounds mean that the enemy will have to invest some time and energy if they want to take the objective which will likely be more than the small point value.

Perhaps they should have a similar rule to AM infantry that they gain cover when holding an objective. That would help make their purpose clearer.

   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





Dorset, England

I think you did a good job giving them reasonable stats for humans. So often when people make their own rules the temptation is to pump up the stats as they like their own cool idea!
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Cool concept! Unfortunately, I think you may have errored on the side of caution a little too much here. I get that you don't want to make them overly strong, but as-is their damage is basically nonexistent.

Against a middle-of-the-road enemy like an eldar guardian squad, 10 of their melee attacks are only going to hit 5 times, wound 2.5 times, and translate to about 1.7 failed saves. So 1 or 2 dead space elves if your squad has managed to avoid losing a single body.

The minepods are this unit's whole shtick, but that's only going to do ~1.17 wounds for about 0.7 more dead space elves. And that's if the enemy has opted to charge you in the first place. The minepods are also weird in that they have a dedicated anti-vehicle keyword, but they're only doing 1.75 wounds, which most vehicles will then have a 3+ or 4+ save against. So you're maybe doing 1 point of damage against the thing you have an anti-keyword against.

So for 50-60 points, under ideal conditions that require you to not move around on your own turn, if a relatively squishy enemy opts to charge you, you kill maybe 3 cheap models. Against meq, you do significantly less than that. Against a vehicle, you do basically nothing.

I think this unit has a few fundamental things working against it:
* Mobility: It needs to hold still to use its special ability, but it also wants to be holding an objective. Which in practical terms probably means that this unit is just bodies with no fights first gimmick for half the game. My instinct is to give them infiltrate so that they can be cheap early scoring, but that seems unfluffy and would definitely bump up against the niche of other units.

* Offense. They have basically no shooting, but they also don't want to charge. So you either charge them in (at which point they're just a really overpriced melee unit), or you pray to Tau'va that something charges them, at which point their guardian drone stops working. Either way, you're slapping the enemy with really lacklustre offense that isn't enough to shift an enemy off of an objective nor is it enough to kill off an enemy trying to take your own.

* Niche: Other units kind of collectively fill the role this unit is going for. If you want a melee unit, kroot do it better. If you want an objective sitter, fire warriors do it just as well but can also put out some respectable shooting. I guess you could use these guys to grant buffs to fire warriors in the new detachment and be charge catchers for them, but you could also get similar results by just using kroot instead. Heck, kroot also kind of make objective sitters less necessary in general because you can just sticky an objective. The best thing these guys have going for them is that they're a slightly cheaper source of guardian drone wounds. But to make the most of that, you'd probably have to spam these guys. Which basically feels like a boring statcheck. "Did you bring enough shots to kill through my 60 wounds of cheap fodder?"

So backing up a step, I think we need to figure out what this unit's trying to do and think about how their tau pals would help them do that. Personally, I feel like the natural role for gua'vesa with their predilection (from a tau POV) for close-quarters fighting and relative expendability is just use them as breachers. However, I get that that's a farcry from the concept you're going for here.

If you want a unit to stand around in a limited area and defend that area against incoming enemies, you want to give them tools that help with that. A guardian drone makes a lot of sense. So does the turret drone. But giving them pistols and swords means that they have no way (other than the turret) to whittle down the enemy until the threat is right on top of them. So something like a squad of loyalist guardsmen or genestealer cultists would be able to comfortably pick away at them from a distance if they were afraid of those pseudo power swords. (Which they probably won't be because those power blade stats just don't have the volume or the lethality to kill much.)

You probably can't give them pulse rifles without making them feel like cheaper (and thus better) fire warriors. You could maybe give them lasguns, but at that point you're still not doing much damage. So maybe lean into their specialization (static defenders) and give them weapons that hit harder but require setup (and thus can't be fired if the squad moved at all). Or maybe give them lasguns after all but swap the minepod rule out for something that they can use more proactively. Or maybe you lean into the "shield for fire warriors" thing and swap the mines out for a rule that lets them intercept would-be chargers (reactive move while within X" of fire warriors?) Or maybe you decide that the earth caste has equipped them with lots of protective gear that makes them genuinely hard to shift but at the cost of offense, probably making them a bit more expensive but allowing them to fill the niche of "durable infantry" without becoming a race to the bottom stat check skew unit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/24 01:28:39



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I'm not sure giving them automatic Cover on objectives is a good idea.

T3 W1 isn't good, but an effective 3+ save on objectives isn't half bad.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm not sure giving them automatic Cover on objectives is a good idea.

T3 W1 isn't good, but an effective 3+ save on objectives isn't half bad.


I was thinking about some sort of "dig in" rule which could fit that. The idea being when they get to an objective they set up mines and dig fox holes. So +3 against shooting or CC too?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Previous post has transformed into a wall of text.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





 Wyldhunt wrote:
Previous post has transformed into a wall of text.


Excellent points!

It makes me rethink things. I want a unit that is not a duplicate of another but also fits the Tau.

What if the unit was given deep strike. The idea is that they use gravchutes (or something similar) to take vulnerable points and then hold the line until the main Tau advance. Pathfinders cannot do this as they are too vulnerable. Pathfinders/Stealth Suits are all about finding the ideal position. The Gue'vesa are all about falling into place and making the enemy deal with them.

To make this fit the basic stats stay the same. But maybe make them M 5 to show they are carrying heavy equipment (more on that later).

Give then Pulse Carbines and a guardian drone and the support turret.

Then give them the following special rule:

"Hold until the Fire Caste arrives!"

When holding an objective the Gue'vesa deploy fusion and EMP grenades triggered by trip wires and portable shields to defend their position (I am imaging Tau versions on sandbags sort of like Tidewall Rampart)

The effect is charging units take D6 hits from EMP grenades and D6 hits from fusion grenades (same states as the Pathfinders shoot). Also, the unit gains fight first and has a +3 save (provided by the portable shields).

This makes the units pretty dangerous, but only when holding an objective. Away from objectives of that they are slower less good Pathfinders.

What do you think? Better or worse?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Zookie wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
Previous post has transformed into a wall of text.


Excellent points!

It makes me rethink things. I want a unit that is not a duplicate of another but also fits the Tau.

What if the unit was given deep strike. The idea is that they use gravchutes (or something similar) to take vulnerable points and then hold the line until the main Tau advance. Pathfinders cannot do this as they are too vulnerable. Pathfinders/Stealth Suits are all about finding the ideal position. The Gue'vesa are all about falling into place and making the enemy deal with them.

To make this fit the basic stats stay the same. But maybe make them M 5 to show they are carrying heavy equipment (more on that later).

Give then Pulse Carbines and a guardian drone and the support turret.

Then give them the following special rule:

"Hold until the Fire Caste arrives!"

When holding an objective the Gue'vesa deploy fusion and EMP grenades triggered by trip wires and portable shields to defend their position (I am imaging Tau versions on sandbags sort of like Tidewall Rampart)

The effect is charging units take D6 hits from EMP grenades and D6 hits from fusion grenades (same states as the Pathfinders shoot). Also, the unit gains fight first and has a +3 save (provided by the portable shields).

This makes the units pretty dangerous, but only when holding an objective. Away from objectives of that they are slower less good Pathfinders.

What do you think? Better or worse?
That's definitely more powerful... But I'm worried that's too much.

Against a T3 4+ armor squad charging in (Eldar, for example) you'd be doing...

7/2 at S3 [Dev Wounds]
7/6 wounds and 7/12 Devastating
7/12+7/12=7/6

7/2 at S6 AP-1
35/12 wounds
70/24 or 35/12 failed saves

That's four models dead before they even get to attack. And with Fights First, this squad would be, well, fighting first. And with a 3+ Armor, they're as tough as Sisters.

Even MEQ or Gravis charging in might be weary, since they'd be looking at taking some D3 hits.

Edit: The restriction of "Being on an Objective" isn't that much of a downside. You WANT to be on Objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/24 03:27:24


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





 JNAProductions wrote:
Zookie wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
Previous post has transformed into a wall of text.


Excellent points!

It makes me rethink things. I want a unit that is not a duplicate of another but also fits the Tau.

What if the unit was given deep strike. The idea is that they use gravchutes (or something similar) to take vulnerable points and then hold the line until the main Tau advance. Pathfinders cannot do this as they are too vulnerable. Pathfinders/Stealth Suits are all about finding the ideal position. The Gue'vesa are all about falling into place and making the enemy deal with them.

To make this fit the basic stats stay the same. But maybe make them M 5 to show they are carrying heavy equipment (more on that later).

Give then Pulse Carbines and a guardian drone and the support turret.

Then give them the following special rule:

"Hold until the Fire Caste arrives!"

When holding an objective the Gue'vesa deploy fusion and EMP grenades triggered by trip wires and portable shields to defend their position (I am imaging Tau versions on sandbags sort of like Tidewall Rampart)

The effect is charging units take D6 hits from EMP grenades and D6 hits from fusion grenades (same states as the Pathfinders shoot). Also, the unit gains fight first and has a +3 save (provided by the portable shields).

This makes the units pretty dangerous, but only when holding an objective. Away from objectives of that they are slower less good Pathfinders.

What do you think? Better or worse?
That's definitely more powerful... But I'm worried that's too much.

Against a T3 4+ armor squad charging in (Eldar, for example) you'd be doing...

7/2 at S3 [Dev Wounds]
7/6 wounds and 7/12 Devastating
7/12+7/12=7/6

7/2 at S6 AP-1
35/12 wounds
70/24 or 35/12 failed saves

That's four models dead before they even get to attack. And with Fights First, this squad would be, well, fighting first. And with a 3+ Armor, they're as tough as Sisters.

Even MEQ or Gravis charging in might be weary, since they'd be looking at taking some D3 hits.

Edit: The restriction of "Being on an Objective" isn't that much of a downside. You WANT to be on Objectives.


Maybe D3 for fusion and EMP grenades? Is the +3 too strong? Maybe just give them cover at objectives. That gives them good protection from shooting and the D3 grenades and fight first still makes them pretty tough with +4 SV.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

How many points are you looking at the unit being?

Do you want a 50-60 point speedbump?
Or a more hard-hitting unit?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





 JNAProductions wrote:
How many points are you looking at the unit being?

Do you want a 50-60 point speedbump?
Or a more hard-hitting unit?


I didn't have a specific point cost in mind. At first, I was thinking something cheaper. But the goal is to make something that is useful in a Tau army while not outshining the codex units. I am open to suggestions that are completely different.

I am just trying to think how the Tau might incorporate the Gue'vesa that can be playable on the table. The Kroot give Melee. The Vespids help against heavy infantry. So I was asking myself what do the Gue'vesa provide. What came to my mind was holding a position. Most Tau units need to relocate when the enemy closes in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/24 04:06:05


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I still feel like breachers are the obvious use for humans. They lack the natural melee talent of a kroot and the wings of a vespid, but they're numerous and reckless enough to get in close? Give them a powerful, short-ranged weapon! Maybe rather than a new unit, we just add a rule to the detachment saying you can either lump your breachers in with the kroot/vespid or keep them as tau for purposes of detachment's various rules?

Failing that, holding ground does seem like an okay way to use humans. Maybe just lean into the idea that tau *could* build some pretty powerful static defense tech; they just normally prefer not to. So maybe each squad of gua'vesa comes with a tau-style aegis defense line type unit, and you give the gua'vesa a rule that rewards them for remaining hunkered down behind those defenses. Maybe you let them choose one of several "add-ons" for the energy shield wall, and the chosen add-on helps shape their role. So maybe you can take an antenna or anti-air gun that prevents deepstriking near humans within 3" of the shield wall. Or just a bigger, shootier gun. Or an enhanced shield that makes the humans harder to shift at a distance.

Basically, design this human unit around the idea that they're the squads you want to leave in your own deployment zone while your kroot and vespid are fighting over no man's land.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 Wyldhunt wrote:
I still feel like breachers are the obvious use for humans. They lack the natural melee talent of a kroot and the wings of a vespid, but they're numerous and reckless enough to get in close? Give them a powerful, short-ranged weapon! Maybe rather than a new unit, we just add a rule to the detachment saying you can either lump your breachers in with the kroot/vespid or keep them as tau for purposes of detachment's various rules?

Failing that, holding ground does seem like an okay way to use humans. Maybe just lean into the idea that tau *could* build some pretty powerful static defense tech; they just normally prefer not to. So maybe each squad of gua'vesa comes with a tau-style aegis defense line type unit, and you give the gua'vesa a rule that rewards them for remaining hunkered down behind those defenses. Maybe you let them choose one of several "add-ons" for the energy shield wall, and the chosen add-on helps shape their role. So maybe you can take an antenna or anti-air gun that prevents deepstriking near humans within 3" of the shield wall. Or just a bigger, shootier gun. Or an enhanced shield that makes the humans harder to shift at a distance.

Basically, design this human unit around the idea that they're the squads you want to leave in your own deployment zone while your kroot and vespid are fighting over no man's land.

I know it's just a weapons switch for modelling purposes, but if they had added human breachers instead of Tau ones back then it would have helped get things back on track with having enough aliens and not just being the gundam faction (which was never necessary because of Eldar).
   
 
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