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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/31 15:32:33
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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By this I mean low model count/squad level fights instead of 2000+ points? Was this always a thing or did it show up sometime later? I know Shadow War Armageddon and Kill Team were their own seperate games.
-STS
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/31 15:33:26
Grey Knights 712 points Imperial Stormtroopers 3042 points Lamenters 1787 points Xenomorphs 995 points 1200 points + 1790 points 770 points 369 points of Imperial Guard to bolster the Sisters of Battle
Kain said: "This will surely end in tears for everyone involved. How very 40k."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/31 15:43:59
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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slade the sniper wrote:By this I mean low model count/squad level fights instead of 2000+ points? Was this always a thing or did it show up sometime later? I know Shadow War Armageddon and Kill Team were their own seperate games.
- STS
Pretty sure it was a game mode in the back of the 3rd or 4th ed main rulebook. I’d have to doublecheck. But it’s been around for a while. Heck, back in RT the game was more of an RPG that would scale down to a couple characters.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/31 16:27:25
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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Kill Team has been around in the Big Rulebook as a concept for quite a while. Long before it got its own rulebook and boxed sets.
Back then it was more of the training/learning game that was in the book to give you something to learn with and then you'd move up to the 2K games. A full stepping stone that was used for guide/tutorial games.
It's only more recently that its changed its form and became its own separate marketed game format that GW pushes with product and marketing.
I think that's gone hand in hand with both a drive to recruit new people; but also a format that gives long term fans who might have more limited time to play (got to get home for family/work) a format that is attractive to play with smaller skirmishing model counts and timeframes.
It's honestly been one of the really smart moves GW made because in the past the "you gotta have 2K models to really get into the game) has been a barrier of entry for many. Even if you could player lower point levels that 2K was always the ideal target and the most often played at many stores/clubs. So it could be very easy for people to burn out just gathering enough models to join the "real games"
So having a "real game" that's much lower in point value and model count is a really powerful move.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/31 16:33:51
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Posts with Authority
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In terms of scale, I'd say Kill Team is kind of "Necromunda 40,000".
The idea of skirmish games started with Rogue Trader itself. The origins of all 40K come from small scale infantry fight games (example game of Rogue Trader rulebook has 3 squads face off against 4, five models each; its follow-up mission uses around 20 models per side), which just happened to expand to a more company level affair later. By 2nd edition, 40K had become the "big army" game, and Necromunda (or Confrontation, as it was originally called) became the new skirmish scale combat game utilizing the same "Warhammer Game System" mechanics. It hasn't been until Elliott Hamer took over game design at the "Kill Team" project that the game has been its own thing, with bespoke rules entirely removed from classic Warhammer game paradigms.
Modern Kill Team feels more like tabletop X-com to me than classic warhammer forks.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2024/12/31 16:54:32
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/31 16:48:03
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Nevelon wrote:slade the sniper wrote:By this I mean low model count/squad level fights instead of 2000+ points? Was this always a thing or did it show up sometime later? I know Shadow War Armageddon and Kill Team were their own seperate games.
- STS
Pretty sure it was a game mode in the back of the 3rd or 4th ed main rulebook. I’d have to doublecheck. But it’s been around for a while. Heck, back in RT the game was more of an RPG that would scale down to a couple characters.
4th edition, I think. I was just re-reading those rules recently and pondering working on an updated version.
That said, 2nd edition games could be pretty darn small and might qualify in their own right.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/31 16:58:37
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Posts with Authority
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IMHO it wasn't really until 3rd edition that 40K became more of a mass battle game. Before that, it was more or less Combat Patrol sized affairs, which I still classify as skirmish scale myself.. YMMV
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"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/31 17:06:46
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Been Around the Block
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Goonhammer recently had an article tracking the (pre)history of Kill Team, which should have all the info you're looking for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/01 16:29:52
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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If I remember correctly, it was a White Dwarf 2E Article - though one could argue "1st Edition" was kill team before Warhammer 40K was even a thing.
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/01 22:36:54
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Maple Valley, Washington, Holy Terra
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Right, so, as the article states, the 40K 4th ed. rulebook introduced Kill Team more-or-less as we know it today. Notably the rules were more strongly based on the then-current 40K rules than the last couple of editions of Kill Team have been.
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"Calgar hates Tyranids."
Your #1 Fan |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/02 06:50:05
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Pariah Press wrote:
Right, so, as the article states, the 40K 4th ed. rulebook introduced Kill Team more-or-less as we know it today. Notably the rules were more strongly based on the then-current 40K rules than the last couple of editions of Kill Team have been.
4th edition Kill Team only vaguely resembles modern Kill Team. It was heavily asymmetrical. Like, only the attacker got a kill team. The defender had a bunch of "brute squads" that wandered around until an alarm went off, with lots of rules to determine *when* that alarm went off. And then the defender got a boss character and could take extra brutes or special defenses based on how much special training/gear the attacker gave their kill team.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/02 10:33:21
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Posts with Authority
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Wyldhunt wrote: Pariah Press wrote:
Right, so, as the article states, the 40K 4th ed. rulebook introduced Kill Team more-or-less as we know it today. Notably the rules were more strongly based on the then-current 40K rules than the last couple of editions of Kill Team have been.
4th edition Kill Team only vaguely resembles modern Kill Team. It was heavily asymmetrical. Like, only the attacker got a kill team. The defender had a bunch of "brute squads" that wandered around until an alarm went off, with lots of rules to determine *when* that alarm went off. And then the defender got a boss character and could take extra brutes or special defenses based on how much special training/gear the attacker gave their kill team.
If you havent been keeping up, you might want to know that KT24 reintroduced those things in the PvE game modes. Opponents are NPO (Non Player Operatives), and the missions arent that much removed from the stuff in 4th ed. Rules for sentries were already present in KT21 (introduced in the Moroch book IIRC), and you could combine those rules with the current PvE rules for re-enacting the whole affair. the "brutes" can now be represented by any miniatures from your collection, and they behave according to a couple predetermined "algorithms", what makes them particularly nasty is the rule "when deciding what an NPO will do next, choose the option which is the worst for you", simple but effective.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/01/02 10:38:21
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/02 21:43:38
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Fixture of Dakka
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tauist wrote: Wyldhunt wrote: Pariah Press wrote:
Right, so, as the article states, the 40K 4th ed. rulebook introduced Kill Team more-or-less as we know it today. Notably the rules were more strongly based on the then-current 40K rules than the last couple of editions of Kill Team have been.
4th edition Kill Team only vaguely resembles modern Kill Team. It was heavily asymmetrical. Like, only the attacker got a kill team. The defender had a bunch of "brute squads" that wandered around until an alarm went off, with lots of rules to determine *when* that alarm went off. And then the defender got a boss character and could take extra brutes or special defenses based on how much special training/gear the attacker gave their kill team.
If you havent been keeping up, you might want to know that KT24 reintroduced those things in the PvE game modes. Opponents are NPO (Non Player Operatives), and the missions arent that much removed from the stuff in 4th ed. Rules for sentries were already present in KT21 (introduced in the Moroch book IIRC), and you could combine those rules with the current PvE rules for re-enacting the whole affair. the "brutes" can now be represented by any miniatures from your collection, and they behave according to a couple predetermined "algorithms", what makes them particularly nasty is the rule "when deciding what an NPO will do next, choose the option which is the worst for you", simple but effective.
I wasn't aware. Thanks for the heads up!
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/02 23:15:09
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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KT21 also had rules for missions with sentries in a White Dwarf. I tried those out with a friend, but they were REALLY bad. The amount of randomness in moving sentries created extremely nonsensical situations, from the point of view of both the narrative and gameplay. Also quite boring and uneventful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/03 16:25:45
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Maple Valley, Washington, Holy Terra
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To me, the essential elements that connect the 4th Edition’s Kill-Team to more recent versions, and separate it from 40K proper, are two-fold:
The removal of squads. Each model moves independently.
Individual equipment loadouts for each model.
Obviously this is a subjective line, so YMMV.
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"Calgar hates Tyranids."
Your #1 Fan |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/03 17:25:44
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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Afaik the first instance of a game mode called "Kill Team" was in the 4th ed core rulebook, but that instancr of kill team was very different from modern kill team and was more of an asymmetric skirmish mode where one side played a kill team and the other played sentries and guards
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/03 17:58:25
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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If memory serves, Kill Team emerged from “40K in 40 Minutes”, which I think had White Dwarf origins as a stripped down, low points affair intended to be played in a lunchtime, and evolved into Combat Patrol.
So small, 28mm scale Notcromunda 40K has existed across various incarnations.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/04 04:02:36
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:If memory serves, Kill Team emerged from “ 40K in 40 Minutes”, which I think had White Dwarf origins as a stripped down, low points affair intended to be played in a lunchtime, and evolved into Combat Patrol.
So small, 28mm scale Notcromunda 40K has existed across various incarnations.
I remember Kill Team for 40K and a similar "freebie" ruleset for Fantasy called.... Battle something I think Up to 500 points including up to 2 Specials or 1 Rare.
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/04 09:54:10
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Thanks for all the info!
-STS
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Grey Knights 712 points Imperial Stormtroopers 3042 points Lamenters 1787 points Xenomorphs 995 points 1200 points + 1790 points 770 points 369 points of Imperial Guard to bolster the Sisters of Battle
Kain said: "This will surely end in tears for everyone involved. How very 40k."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/04 12:52:27
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Posts with Authority
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:If memory serves, Kill Team emerged from “ 40K in 40 Minutes”, which I think had White Dwarf origins as a stripped down, low points affair intended to be played in a lunchtime, and evolved into Combat Patrol.
So small, 28mm scale Notcromunda 40K has existed across various incarnations.
That'd be WD # 274 - Tim Eagling's article. So are you saying that 40K Combat Patrol evolved from these rules, or Kill Team did? Becuase I don't see anythning in these rules suggesting its played with individual models as opposed to squads. And playing individual models with no regard for unit coherency is kind of Kill Team's whole thing since the beginning.. Which is why I like to think its origins come from Confrontaiton / Necromunda instead, which has always been like that.
Furthermore, to my knowledge anyways, No version of Kill Team ever had any rules for vehicles of any kind..
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/04 12:53:58
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/04 13:29:47
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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All variants on the same concept, and not all variants were run concurrently.
Kill Team as we know it now may have been the first Notcromunda 40K, where as you say it’s played as individual models.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/04 15:39:42
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Newb
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While I am not a KT player, I still play solo Confrontation games. And, for what it's worth, figures have to keep a group coherency of 6 inches. But groups are more fluid and can contain as little as two figures. Whether KT used any ideas from Confrontation is beyond my knowledge, but I do appreciate GW working to make low figure count games that play quick.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/04 17:28:10
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Wasn't the realease of Schaeffer's Last Chancers accompanied by a very Kill-Teamy scenario and a battle report where they operated as individuals, fighting off enemy goons? Early 3rd edition IIRC.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/01/04 17:31:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/04 18:20:17
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cyel wrote:Wasn't the realease of Schaeffer's Last Chancers accompanied by a very Kill-Teamy scenario and a battle report where they operated as individuals, fighting off enemy goons? Early 3rd edition IIRC.
Aided in their mission by a fire frenzying Chaos Dreadnought!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/05 07:45:23
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Posts with Authority
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Hey You wrote:While I am not a KT player, I still play solo Confrontation games. And, for what it's worth, figures have to keep a group coherency of 6 inches. But groups are more fluid and can contain as little as two figures. Whether KT used any ideas from Confrontation is beyond my knowledge, but I do appreciate GW working to make low figure count games that play quick.
Interesting. I admit never having played Confrontation, that's a cool mechanic.
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"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/05 22:44:17
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Are we speaking the same Confrontation?
As in the WD Published precursor to Necromunda Confrontation, or the Rackham Confrontation?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/13 17:33:57
Subject: Re:When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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This article fails to mention that the 4th edition rulebook KT rules were originally printed in Chapter Approved.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/13 17:39:31
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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From what I understand (and what people have said here) there have been some version of the low model count games pretty much forever.
However, the first time I ever had people actually want to play it with me was when it got it's own dedicated mission in the 5th Edition Battle Missions book.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/13 17:43:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/13 20:09:40
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Breton wrote:If I remember correctly, it was a White Dwarf 2E Article - though one could argue "1st Edition" was kill team before Warhammer 40K was even a thing.
I think there's a pretty valid argument to be made that Kill Team is a brand put on a 1st edition style game much the way Horus Heresy is a rebranding of the 3rd-7th era game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/13 20:50:21
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Newb
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Are we speaking the same Confrontation?
As in the WD Published precursor to Necromunda Confrontation, or the Rackham Confrontation?
Confrontation from the WD articles concerning personalized gangs in the 40K universe.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/01/14 08:46:57
Subject: When was the idea of Kill Team first introduced?
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Posts with Authority
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LunarSol wrote:Breton wrote:If I remember correctly, it was a White Dwarf 2E Article - though one could argue "1st Edition" was kill team before Warhammer 40K was even a thing.
I think there's a pretty valid argument to be made that Kill Team is a brand put on a 1st edition style game much the way Horus Heresy is a rebranding of the 3rd-7th era game.
How I wish that were true. Hate to sound like a broken record, but no version of Kill Team ever had monstrous creatures nor vehicles. If they would be included, I would switch to playing Kill Team exclusively. Even if monstrous creatures were somewhat rare in 1st editon 40K, vehicles have always been a part of its rules mechanics, in one way or another
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"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
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