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 Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
Alas I'm pretty limited model-wise. No DDAs, and only 2 destroyers and 1 heavy destroyer, and only the heavy is painted up in my scheme, the others are secondary market. I definitely want to keep the Lord around to show off my new conversion, but we'll see whether I want to go with the more characters, or with the larger warrior block. Good call on the veil, though I can't say I've figured out how to use it well. It always feels like a waste to send my big Teslammortal unit out without an Overlord, and WITH the Overlord is a large points cost that'll die in a turn. 20 warriors is hard to place, and anything else I have dies after a single turn and again costs me an HQ. I know it's the right thing to do, I just haven't figured out how to do it yet.

Use it to take objectives, get RF units into RF range and then charge and tie up multiple shooting units, most importantly use it to get out of combat. You can still shoot with a unit that was in combat when it was Veiled out. I haven't used any of the offensive Relics more than once, I like my Destroyer Lords as tough as possible and if I'm bringing an Overlord I'm bringing the Veil. Even just keeping your WL out of harms way when he gets into trouble can be worth the Relic slot. T5 and you're in trouble? Veil into a corner out of LOS or use the Resurrection Protocols to come back to life after Shooting and keep your opponent from getting Slay the Warlord.

My Veil uses are typically not carefully planned. You keep it around for any number of uses, as said above, and when the right moment comes, you beam away.

That moment might not come, and the Veil probably isn't turning the tide of a losing battle on its own, but it's a very useful flexibility to have at hand.

The FAQ nerfed it though, since you now are considered to have fallen back if you veil out of assault.

Still useful though.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The FAQ nerfed it though, since you now are considered to have fallen back if you veil out of assault.

Still useful though.

Incorrect.

BRB rulebook update 1.5
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic
powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?
A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the
following rules apply to that unit:

4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back when it is set back up on the battlefield.

Where is that FAQ? It's not in the Necron Codex FAQ, and the main rulebook FAQ says for "a unit ... removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up ... if that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does NOT count as having Fallen Back" (emphasis added).

Anyhow, I went with the VoD and the extra 20-warrior blob. Taking with me a 1500 pt version as well, with the cryptek, an extra scarab, some wraiths and tomb blades and a night scythe as well. Night scythe is weak I know, but it'll let me more safely have a unit 'embarked' if I want.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The FAQ nerfed it though, since you now are considered to have fallen back if you veil out of assault.

Still useful though.

Wrong. 4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back when it is set back up on the battlefield.

If you veil out of assault (within 1" of enemy models), you dont count as falling back. Red Corsair is wrong.

Hey guys,
I've been battlescribing a few lists and mathhammering some things and had a few questions that I would pose to everyone:


1. All in on methodological destruction? Particularly with the newer (and older!) Big model meta? I mean all in with all Sautek, double MWBD telsa immortals (either with Imotek or the strat), a stalker and even annihilation barges?

2. Is this what the winning lists are doing any how with the doom scythes and DDAs?

3. Have we mathed out the lord buff on 2 units of tesla immortals fully buffed vs big units like bullgryn or blightlords or magnus or morty? Is it worth the points?

Bulgryns are typically 2+ , I'm not sure if I'd throw my tesla at that.

You could always punch the numbers, reroll 1 to hit and wound, +1 or +2, at http://www.dice-hammer.com (but you'd have to divide the unit cost to get damage per point yourself, for now) (disclaimer - I wrote the tool)

Don't buy into the +2 Tesla hype. Remember they're already maxed their BS at +1. The real magic happens when going from nothing to +1.

+2 is partly a waste in that regard. But if you are doing MD anyway and shooting your teslas at that then why not.

 Brymm wrote:
Hey guys,
I've been battlescribing a few lists and mathhammering some things and had a few questions that I would pose to everyone:


1. All in on methodical destruction? Particularly with the newer (and older!) Big model meta? I mean all in with all Sautekh, double MWBD telsa immortals (either with Imotek or the strat), a stalker and even annihilation barges?

2. Is this what the winning lists are doing any how with the doom scythes and DDAs?

3. Have we mathed out the lord buff on 2 units of tesla immortals fully buffed vs big units like bullgryn or blightlords or magnus or morty? Is it worth the points?

1. Your meta is your meta, with that I mean that I can't tell you what's going on at your local scene in Nebraska or Brazil. Knowing what terrain is going to be at a tournament and what mission rules will be in use as well as looking at tournament lists for tournaments in the area will help you determine what meta is at a tournament. MWBD increases the firepower of your Immortals by 100% if they are at -1, 50% if they are at +0, 22% if they are at +1. Mephrit increases the firepower of your immortals by 100% against 2+ Sv units, 50% against 3+, 33% against 4+, 25% against 5+, 17% against 6+. I don't think any Necron list is better for my meta than 58 Teslamortals, Imotekh, Zahndrekh, Obyron, Overlord w/ Veil, Triarch Stalker w/ Gauss, 3 DDAs. That list just shreds Knights and lightly armoured Infantry extremely quickly.
2. I don't think so they don't use Triarch Stalkers and I imagine they rely more on the Doomscythe Strat than Methodical Destruction, although no doubt MD still an important Stratagem for them.
3. Don't take a Lord for 2 units of Tesla Immortals, at least not if you aren't getting CP for taking him. Destroyer Lords are the only HQs we have that are really worth taking in anything but a Battalion, our HQs are pretty weak. The best part of the MWBD Teslamortal combo is the Teslamortal, even our "most powerful" combo HQ is meh in terms of buff effectiveness. 20 Stalker Methodical MWBD Teslamortals will do 9 wounds to a -1 Primarch, 6 to a -2 Primarch. I've never played against Bullgryn, but they are just a Distraction Carnifex, ignore them as best you can. You could them with several units from different sides ensuring they have to split their attacks, maybe you can survive through Reanimation Protocols. Focus them down when your opponent runs out of CP and they fail their +1 to Svs/-1 to hit power on them, shoot with your AP shooting until they take wounds on the ones with brute shields, finish of the brute shields with Tesla.

*A Lord provides a 7/6=17% increase in damage to all <DYNASTY> INFANTRY units within 6".
*A Lord costs around 75 pts, we can divide his cost by the benefit of his aura, so 75/0,17=265. That means over the course of his lifespan you'll want an average of 265 pts worth of <DYNASTY> INFANTRY within 6" for him to make his pts back just with his aura.
*10 Teslamortals are worth 150pts.
*10 MWBD Teslamortals are worth 225 pts.
*10 Methodical MWBD Teslamortals are worth 275 pts.
*10 Stalker Methodical MWBD Teslamortals are worth 320 pts.
*Let's say on average you expect to have 150 pts worth of relevant guys in range, that means you need him to be worth 50 pts just off his durability and damage output, that's not going to happen.
*How about when you are keeping effectively 1800 pts worth of Teslamortals in range turn 1? That's when the Lord becomes a really good option and when your army becomes worth more than the sum of its parts.
*I value a CP at 25/20/15 pts if I have 3-6/7-9/10+ CP. Usually, a 3 HQ Battalion is never worth it, cut an HQ and put in more Fast Attack. If the Lord is giving you 1 CP from a Vanguard or something and you expect to have 150 pts in range of his Aura on average you just need to get him to do 30 pts worth of work with his weapon, that's doable, but not really great. Ideally, the aura pays for the Lord, his durability is only high enough for holding up shooting units in melee and his damage output is low enough that he'll need help to finish them off.
*Lords are better than Crypteks for Immortals since you'll see the light of Reanimation Protocols so rarely.

Ah my bad, for some reason I read point 4 as the count as falling back. In my defense I own 8 armies so whenever these FAQ's hit it is a chore reading through for every change

Well that's great then, since the veil was my most used relic for escaping assault with immortals.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
Hey guys,
I've been battlescribing a few lists and mathhammering some things and had a few questions that I would pose to everyone:


1. All in on methodical destruction? Particularly with the newer (and older!) Big model meta? I mean all in with all Sautekh, double MWBD telsa immortals (either with Imotek or the strat), a stalker and even annihilation barges?

2. Is this what the winning lists are doing any how with the doom scythes and DDAs?

3. Have we mathed out the lord buff on 2 units of tesla immortals fully buffed vs big units like bullgryn or blightlords or magnus or morty? Is it worth the points?

1. Your meta is your meta, with that I mean that I can't tell you what's going on at your local scene in Nebraska or Brazil. Knowing what terrain is going to be at a tournament and what mission rules will be in use as well as looking at tournament lists for tournaments in the area will help you determine what meta is at a tournament. MWBD increases the firepower of your Immortals by 100% if they are at -1, 50% if they are at +0, 22% if they are at +1. Mephrit increases the firepower of your immortals by 100% against 2+ Sv units, 50% against 3+, 33% against 4+, 25% against 5+, 17% against 6+. I don't think any Necron list is better for my meta than 58 Teslamortals, Imotekh, Zahndrekh, Obyron, Overlord w/ Veil, Triarch Stalker w/ Gauss, 3 DDAs. That list just shreds Knights and lightly armoured Infantry extremely quickly.
2. I don't think so they don't use Triarch Stalkers and I imagine they rely more on the Doomscythe Strat than Methodical Destruction, although no doubt MD still an important Stratagem for them.
3. Don't take a Lord for 2 units of Tesla Immortals, at least not if you aren't getting CP for taking him. Destroyer Lords are the only HQs we have that are really worth taking in anything but a Battalion, our HQs are pretty weak. The best part of the MWBD Teslamortal combo is the Teslamortal, even our "most powerful" combo HQ is meh in terms of buff effectiveness. 20 Stalker Methodical MWBD Teslamortals will do 9 wounds to a -1 Primarch, 6 to a -2 Primarch. I've never played against Bullgryn, but they are just a Distraction Carnifex, ignore them as best you can. You could them with several units from different sides ensuring they have to split their attacks, maybe you can survive through Reanimation Protocols. Focus them down when your opponent runs out of CP and they fail their +1 to Svs/-1 to hit power on them, shoot with your AP shooting until they take wounds on the ones with brute shields, finish of the brute shields with Tesla.

*A Lord provides a 7/6=17% increase in damage to all <DYNASTY> INFANTRY units within 6".
*A Lord costs around 75 pts, we can divide his cost by the benefit of his aura, so 75/0,17=265. That means over the course of his lifespan you'll want an average of 265 pts worth of <DYNASTY> INFANTRY within 6" for him to make his pts back just with his aura.
*10 Teslamortals are worth 150pts.
*10 MWBD Teslamortals are worth 225 pts.
*10 Methodical MWBD Teslamortals are worth 275 pts.
*10 Stalker Methodical MWBD Teslamortals are worth 320 pts.
*Let's say on average you expect to have 150 pts worth of relevant guys in range, that means you need him to be worth 50 pts just off his durability and damage output, that's not going to happen.
*How about when you are keeping effectively 1800 pts worth of Teslamortals in range turn 1? That's when the Lord becomes a really good option and when your army becomes worth more than the sum of its parts.
*I value a CP at 25/20/15 pts if I have 3-6/7-9/10+ CP. Usually, a 3 HQ Battalion is never worth it, cut an HQ and put in more Fast Attack. If the Lord is giving you 1 CP from a Vanguard or something and you expect to have 150 pts in range of his Aura on average you just need to get him to do 30 pts worth of work with his weapon, that's doable, but not really great. Ideally, the aura pays for the Lord, his durability is only high enough for holding up shooting units in melee and his damage output is low enough that he'll need help to finish them off.
*Lords are better than Crypteks for Immortals since you'll see the light of Reanimation Protocols so rarely.

Golly! What a bunch of great replies!


I was curious because so many other armies, especially chaos and imperial ones, rely on characters to do so much heavy lifting. I knew the necrons ones were much more underwhelming but wanted to know if their auras were ever efficient enough to take. Warriors, even though you can get 20 a brick, don't benefit from +2 to hit like tesla. Thanks for the analysis.

Does our Solar Strat remove cover from Prepared Positions? I read it over and it appears to only affect one unit anyways.

 Brymm wrote:
Does our Solar Strat remove cover from Prepared Positions? I read it over and it appears to only affect one unit anyways.

It does, it's easy to get carried away with using it though, if your opponent doesn't have a 3+ Sv and if you aren't shooting with a full squad of Teslamortals I don't think the Solar Strat is worth it, although it can be hard to turn down extra firepower T1 to use an extra Stratagem turn 3/4. I used it against CSM today and it helped me deal an extra wound or two, not really worth it.

I also tried the Amalgamated Targeting Data Stratagem for the first time, the Stratagem destroyed 140 pts worth of basic Marines, I thought it was a little underwhelming but my opponent thought Dscythes were the gak. We rolled some dice after my opponent surrendered T1 and I would have only dealt 2 damage to one of his Dreadnoughts if I had fired normally, so the 1CP was good return on investment. My opponent was also forced to spread himself really thinly to avoid the Stratagem knowing that I'd go first 5/6 times, I'm not sure how much that mattered. I still feel like they'll be too squishy against Tau which is where I feel like I need them. They also seem gak against Castellans' main weapon which is otherwise useless against QS vehicles and Infantry. It might be unfair to bring 3 DScythes to casual games, but I thought it was made up for by spamming Deathmarks instead of DDAs or Destroyers.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
Does our Solar Strat remove cover from Prepared Positions? I read it over and it appears to only affect one unit anyways.

It does, it's easy to get carried away with using it though, if your opponent doesn't have a 3+ Sv and if you aren't shooting with a full squad of Teslamortals I don't think the Solar Strat is worth it, although it can be hard to turn down extra firepower T1 to use an extra Stratagem turn 3/4. I used it against CSM today and it helped me deal an extra wound or two, not really worth it.

I also tried the Amalgamated Targeting Data Stratagem for the first time, the Stratagem destroyed 140 pts worth of basic Marines, I thought it was a little underwhelming but my opponent thought Dscythes were the gak. We rolled some dice after my opponent surrendered T1 and I would have only dealt 2 damage to one of his Dreadnoughts if I had fired normally, so the 1CP was good return on investment. My opponent was also forced to spread himself really thinly to avoid the Stratagem knowing that I'd go first 5/6 times, I'm not sure how much that mattered. I still feel like they'll be too squishy against Tau which is where I feel like I need them. They also seem gak against Castellans' main weapon which is otherwise useless against QS vehicles and Infantry. It might be unfair to bring 3 DScythes to casual games, but I thought it was made up for by spamming Deathmarks instead of DDAs or Destroyers.

How did spamming deathmarks work out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah you didnt play beyond turn 1

What works against eldar? Faced super friendly list with no psykers and apart from few sain hann no craftworld traits but stood no chance. 20-30 shots from multiple units s5-s6 shredded infantry and vehicles alike. Quantum shield was useless. Anything that was visible died, if i was behind los was being hit by indirect anyway and hard to cover every angle anyway when minimum move was like 14". And if i broke los cover had hardly anything in range and got blasted to bits anyway.

Damn i hate scatter laser and shuriken cannon

tneva82 wrote:
What works against eldar? Faced super friendly list with no psykers and apart from few sain hann no craftworld traits but stood no chance. 20-30 shots from multiple units s5-s6 shredded infantry and vehicles alike. Quantum shield was useless. Anything that was visible died, if i was behind los was being hit by indirect anyway and hard to cover every angle anyway when minimum move was like 14". And if i broke los cover had hardly anything in range and got blasted to bits anyway.

Damn i hate scatter laser and shuriken cannon

I think you were just unlucky or less skilled than your opponent. DDAs are always good and Teslamortals are good if your opponent isn't playing Alaitoc and/or flyer spam. Warriors, Doomscythes, TBs and Destroyers are decent. Ditch any Flayed Ones, Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard you have going on, at least if your opponent isn't running Scorpions, Banshees or something similarly silly. Without Psykers they have no good way to deal with Titanic units so a couple of Vaults or a Seraptek Stalker should work even though it's normally pretty bad because of Doom and Jinx.

Yea, I am not sure how to address the issue without knowing what they were running or your list. Context matters a lot.

Tesla immortals could be nice except they ran into issue of range. At best i have to advance with them(and against real eldar army that's -2 to hit) and even then irange is not quaranteed when you are dealing with 36" range guys that move 14". And if they are where those see them 30+ shots that wounds on 3+ vaporizes them.

Dda was only unit that did anything(11 wounds to fireprism) but 4+ and useless qs(no good when you face like 20 saves...from 1 unit) makes thosn pops fast. With 3 would survive 1 round with some survivors.

Issun was i had no range to anything(except with dda) without first exposing to round of fire when anything that's exposed facing firepower enough to wipe multiple units. And this with deliberate weakening of list by eldar. With rerolls to wound, -1 to hit and -1 for my saves it would be worse

What forced 20 saves from one unit?

At T6 and nothing in the Eldar army having above S6 outside of Heavy Weapons that do NOT get 20 shots...

20 wounds
40 hits
60 shots

That's 15 Scatterlasers that didn't move.

9 times scatter laser for example sends 36 S6 shots. You don't need high S weapons. And you don't need one weapon generating 20 shot when you can field big piles of them. Piles and piles and piles of scatter lasers on multiple units. I dread to imagine what would happen when they also get to reroll to wounds and I get -1 for my saves.

tneva82 wrote:
9 times scatter laser for example sends 36 S6 shots. You don't need high S weapons. And you don't need one weapon generating 20 shot when you can field big piles of them. Piles and piles and piles of scatter lasers on multiple units. I dread to imagine what would happen when they also get to reroll to wounds and I get -1 for my saves.

It sounds like you didn't play a mission with gradual scoring so you could take objectives and win the game while your opponent was shooting you or maybe you did not have enough terrain to mitigate shooting.

I recommend Gauss Pylon, Cloaktek, 3x6 Destroyers, 2x Dda, Gauss Stalker. That should give you enough mobility to catch up and firepower to annihilate any number of bikes and tanks. It sucks against hordes but it should murder a scat bike spam/3x prism list.

tneva82 wrote:
9 times scatter laser for example sends 36 S6 shots. You don't need high S weapons. And you don't need one weapon generating 20 shot when you can field big piles of them. Piles and piles and piles of scatter lasers on multiple units. I dread to imagine what would happen when they also get to reroll to wounds and I get -1 for my saves.

That's 24 hits and 12 wounds, assuming they stayed still.

Unless they're the Craftworld that ignores Heavy penalty on bikers (which is NOT Alatioc) they aren't using their big movement stat.

@tneva82

This is a useless exercise until you at least attempt to share lists and mission.

We don't even know how many points you played.

Agreed.

So to put us back on track why do you think Destroyers have seemingly left all lists we see?
I still think they are our hardest hitting unit that does not need to be in half range to do it. With Fly and the F-ing Infantry keyword for all the shenanigans In cover they are 2+ T5 so all the mass body armies and out of line of sight shooting is pretty ineffective and with the strat we can deep strike them so we have a guaranteed (unless you plop them down to be Forewarned and such) one turn of shooting out of them.
With our best Stratagem by far putting them into one of the few units in the game that live up to there name why have they fallen?

Pyrothem wrote:
Agreed.

So to put us back on track why do you think Destroyers have seemingly left all lists we see?
I still think they are our hardest hitting unit that does not need to be in half range to do it. With Fly and the F-ing Infantry keyword for all the shenanigans In cover they are 2+ T5 so all the mass body armies and out of line of sight shooting is pretty ineffective and with the strat we can deep strike them so we have a guaranteed (unless you plop them down to be Forewarned and such) one turn of shooting out of them.
With our best Stratagem by far putting them into one of the few units in the game that live up to there name why have they fallen?

The prevalence of multi-damage, high strength, good AP weapons has made them particularly, surprisingly squishy. I usually still run mine, but they are always, always public enemy number 1 for my opponents, and in fact are usually their first-blood targets. (Regardless of if they are successful or not). You can use them, and they hit like a freight train, but you need to use the VERY carefully in order to get good mileage out of them.

Yeah Tomb Blades have been performing better overall for me. They kill less, but they are difficult to wipe off the table turn 1.

Pyrothem wrote:
Agreed.

So to put us back on track why do you think Destroyers have seemingly left all lists we see?
I still think they are our hardest hitting unit that does not need to be in half range to do it. With Fly and the F-ing Infantry keyword for all the shenanigans In cover they are 2+ T5 so all the mass body armies and out of line of sight shooting is pretty ineffective and with the strat we can deep strike them so we have a guaranteed (unless you plop them down to be Forewarned and such) one turn of shooting out of them.
With our best Stratagem by far putting them into one of the few units in the game that live up to there name why have they fallen?

They haven't. I saw a list that did really well at a big tournament recently and it had Destroyers, I actually think two of the four lists I saw had Destroyers but at least one of them had a unit of 6. I think Nephrekh is a mistake, I'd rather run them as Sautekh and I think the list I saw did as well. Nephrekh is cool, but then you are also running a wasteful HQ and 2x3 Scarabs, that's 25% of your firepower gone turn 1 compared to just running a DDA and 6 Sautekh Destroyers and hiding the Ds as best you can. On top of that you get the Craftworld Auspex scan not having a 12" range limit and maybe you forget to ask whether your opponent has an Auspex Scan and then you lose a couple of Ds to it. So don't go pulling out your Destroyers and thinking they are suddenly a fluffy choice, but I'd recommend you go with Sautekh if the rest of your list is also Sautekh. Nephrekh is probably the best way to field Destroyers if you are running a Mephrit Battalion.

I'll always have Destroyers in my list, more so than Wraiths. Having 9 Tomb Blades and 6 Destroyers with a Canoptek Cryptek sounds really good to me. A force that can move rapidly across the board is something I really need.

I won a local little RTT today with the following:

Sautekh Doom Wing
3 Doomscythes

Sautekh Battalion
Overlord (Veil, SoL)
Cloaktek
10 Teslamortals
5 Teslamortals
5 Teslamortals
9 Tesla Blades (Shieldvanes)
6 Destroyers
3 DDAs

Regular ITC Missions 3, 4, and 1; I played against 5 Eldar Flyers (but no Hemlocks....), won 33-12; against Custodes Bikes, won 25-13; against the Don Hooson Discolords + FW Chaos Dreads Purge list, won 35-13.

First time I'd broken out the Destroyers in almost a year, and I'm really glad I did. I think they definitely still suffer from being incredibly soft targets in certain match-ups for their cost, but with the cost cuts to the other stuff in the list there is about enough threat overload now, and other units have enough of a reputation, that players will not necessarily target them right off the bat. If you can hide them and then jump them into a good position you can still get a lot of mileage out of them before they die and they're just as good with MWBD/Extermination Protocols as they ever were.

They shot Crimson Hunters out of the sky, killed whole units of Praetors, and blew away Deredeos. I was able to move them around in ways that largely protected them from being shot by the stuff that would kill them quickly, and leave my opponents distracted trying to kill the arks or blades instead.

Nice! Seems like a solid list to me.