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Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 necr0n wrote:


Check out team Greece Necrons and if you got any questions on my list go ahead and ask! It might look like a very weird list, but it is a list I've been playing and evolving since January (In January I began playing 3 DDA, 3 DS, Imotekh, 3x5 Immortals Sautekh with tb spam) and I think I can talk about it a lot! I'm very glad more countries decided to bring Necrons, especially some of the stronger ones, like USA and Germany.

EDIT: Attached my list for reference.

Thanks for sharing! I find your analysis fascinating.

I can totally see the use of an empty Ghost Ark for screening, and just to shut down units by ramming into them. It's also the last thing anyone wants to have to shoot at due to it's durability, but if it's going to start shutting down units in HtH, they don't have a choice!

I do find the 4 man Destroyer unit a little harder to get on board with. 6 makes more efficient use of the buffs (MWBD, VoD, EP), and overkill isn't an issue if you split fire (1 or 2 would be ideal for triggering MD on a second target). They are also very good vs Terminators, which you mention causing you trouble. However your reasoning is not without merit, and gives me something interesting to think about.


I would like to ask you (or people in general) about your Doom Scythes. I only have 2 so can't trigger the strat, but have started to use them to see what the fuss us about. Their firepower doesn't seem amazing for the points, but I've found the ability to find targets that are trying to hide very valuable.

How often do you use the ATD stratagem for them? Do you think they are worth it without that?


Also, you don't like Imotekh?

I hope you come back and let us know how you got on.

I think having 2 flyers is not advisable. I don't use ATD in more than half my games and not because my flyer dies. There's a lot of matchups where it just won't work (Knights, eldar, etc.) . Then again, I would not play the flyers without this stratagem (hence, I wouldn't play 2 flyers), because of the threat it poses, the choices it forces you to make and the fact that it really ruins TAU. The stratagem alone gives you some matchups that are not necessarily already good matchups, like tau castles, heavy DW veterans, character heavy pgb and weirder stuff like paladin builds and even bullgryns. The other thing that is VERY important about the flyers is that they are both our "indirect fire" and our "snipers". Killing nurglings in weird terrain, scouts, guardsmen that are scoring is very hard with necrons, due to our lack of indirect fire and flyers help mitigate that with their amazing tesla destructors. We have 0 sniping capabilities as an army and the flyers also give us that. They have sniped for me so many characters, both with ATD and just by flying on characters and shooting them and that's just something we really need. So, while I don't use ATD often, I really like the flyer wing for the stratagem threat and the indirect/sniping shooting. And even after the FAQ, they can screen/moveblock pretty well, especially when paired with Ark(s) behind them.

EDIT: I really like Imotekh. I include him in every build where I'm going 3 squads of Immortals + destroyers. Right now, I've chosen to play 2 full squads of Immortals and use the 6 man, outside MWBD range for scoring or baiting/screening discolords/mortarion, etc. (except of course castle scenarios where all immortals are screened) If I would play Imotekh, it would probably be Imotekh + Lord or OL with VoD (depending on how many MWBD I need). I don't really like crypteks, especially since I'm not running large squads of jetbikes. Right now, 2 OLs is a very cheap HQ tax for 9 CP, but also provides me with a rock solid weapon with 2 (or 3 for 1 CP) MWBD per turn and I've got 2 units of 10 immortals and a destroyer squad to consume those. I wouldn't really need more MWBD, and if I included Imotekh I'd need to cut points from my jetbikes. It also doesn't force me to play my 2 immortal squads together (so that I can MWBD both with Imotekh), which is problematic in case you get caught somehow in melee. I don't really value the Storm, but it's a very nice gimmick to have. I played him religiously before the FAQ, but with the nerf to Lootas and Ynnari Reapers the Storm just doesn't have superb value every game anymore.

It isnt true that we have 0 sniping capabilities. A mephrit CCB with merciless tyrant can snipe characters from 30" with tesla cannon, and staff of light from 18". Deathmarks also can snipe characters, but arent viable.

C'tan can snipe as well, Imotekh and Transdimensional Thunderbolt will put a wound on a Character on occasion and if your opponent fails to screen then two or three C'tan with Cosmic Fire will usually kill at least one character in a castle. I used a Mephrit Doom Wing the other day and because they had nowhere to hide but the corner of the table they were the only target for my opponent, so I lost 2 before my first round. The last one was able to snipe a character and force my opponent to discard a Defend Objective because of the mission rules, so they weren't too bad. Losing 300 pts isn't really too much, but my counterpunch was too weak because I had 400 pts in reserves and I rolled low on the Advance roll for one of my Immortal Squads.

Characters arent protected from ctan powers, because those happen at the end of the movement phase. The character protection rule only applies in the shooting phase. Transdimensional thunderbolt says you can only a choose a CHARACTER if he is the closest enemy unit, or has more than 10 wounds. Its the only power who has this limitation about characters.

My personal favourite power right now is Time's Arrow

most buff characters have 4W, so a 5+ nope is pretty good to have

also, it is immeasurably helpful against Custodians, which there's a few of in my area

There was some questions upthread about the Annihilation Barge, the usual reason is being Mephit. They shoot from within half range most rounds, and the -1 makes the tesla incredibly damaging.

Oh yeah, a pair of Mephrit Barges rocking all tesla supported by a Cloaktek actually approaches dangerous levels of anti-elite-infantry and monsters

I used them in a local Patrol-Only event recently and went 2-1 for a 5th/22 finish, including a game against another Necron player and against some Power Armour

but, if im being completely fair with myself and all of you who care to read, I still rate the Barge quite highly, it's just factually not high enough to make to a "serious" tournement list, but thats due to the locals not to do with the unit.

 p5freak wrote:
Characters arent protected from ctan powers, because those happen at the end of the movement phase. The character protection rule only applies in the shooting phase. Transdimensional thunderbolt says you can only a choose a CHARACTER if he is the closest enemy unit, or has more than 10 wounds. Its the only power who has this limitation about characters.

Technically Anti-Matter Meteor also has a character limitation as its closest unit, but yeah, you can kill characters with C'tan powers. The thing though is that Time's Arrow is the only one that's actually efficient at it, and its only effective against characters with low max wounds. You could use it against a character with 5 wounds, but your chances aren't great.

I haven’t played my necrons in several years. Does anyone have an updated grading guide for units?

The very first post of this thread is still pretty accurate.

YMMW.

Unit grading guide for new players

Taking this list to a tournament tomorrow, I have had some decent success with it in the practice games I have played (think I am 5-2, with one of those losses being by 1 point).



The scarabs are generally objective holders (if I have good LoS blocking terrain I will make them engineers and get those extra points as well), while the lychguard and wraiths tend to do a good job of moving across the board and tying stuff up in combat. So far in every game where my opponent had a castellan/knight/superheavy the lychguard have either killed it or done a good job of damaging it. In other games I hold the lychguard back as a counter assault unit along with the wraiths. The battalion is Nihilakh soley for the reroll 1s to hit on the doomsday arks, I was running them as Mephrit before because the immortals benefit from it, but just recently decided to give another dynasty a go.

How are the Lychguard surviving or getting into melee? VoD, and then hope for a 9” charge, or do you use the reroll charge warlord trait as well?

 Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
How are the Lychguard surviving or getting into melee? VoD, and then hope for a 9” charge, or do you use the reroll charge warlord trait as well?

Re-roll charge WL trait is pretty bad in his list IMO, the only important thing is that the Lychguard make it, whether the Overlord makes it is pretty irrelevant, I'd much rather do the Novokh trait since that allows the Lychguard to really smash and also helps the Wraiths and Scarabs out once they come up the field.

*MWBD charge = 42%
*MWBD charge with a CP 33% of the time (re-roll if highest roll is 4+) = 62%
*MWBD charge with a CP 50% of the time (re-roll if highest roll is 3+) = 67%
*MWBD charge with WL trait = 67%
*MWBD charge with WL trait and CP 17% of the time (re-roll if highest roll is 5+) = 70%
*MWBD charge with WL trait and CP 33% of the time (re-roll if highest roll is 4+) = 71%

Analysis queries:

Nearly a year ago, Tesseract Vaults were all the rage, with lists featuring multiple TVs fairing moderately well.

The new hotness appears to be Doom Scythes.

Is it not a coincidence, perhaps, that the DS stratagem is similarly a MW generator, though cheaper and with better anti-vehicle?

Did TVs, despite the wound count and invulnerable save (plus shenanigans) not prove durable enough?

Was the slight point increase that significant of a nerf after all?

sieGermans wrote:
Analysis queries:

Nearly a year ago, Tesseract Vaults were all the rage, with lists featuring multiple TVs fairing moderately well.

The new hotness appears to be Doom Scythes.

Is it not a coincidence, perhaps, that the DS stratagem is similarly a MW generator, though cheaper and with better anti-vehicle?

Did TVs, despite the wound count and invulnerable save (plus shenanigans) not prove durable enough?

Was the slight point increase that significant of a nerf after all?

I wouldn't call a 70 point hike a "slight increase", I'd call it pretty significant. Especially considering how most other units were simultaneously made much cheaper. In the context the nerf was huge.

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Analysis queries:

Nearly a year ago, Tesseract Vaults were all the rage, with lists featuring multiple TVs fairing moderately well.

The new hotness appears to be Doom Scythes.

Is it not a coincidence, perhaps, that the DS stratagem is similarly a MW generator, though cheaper and with better anti-vehicle?

Did TVs, despite the wound count and invulnerable save (plus shenanigans) not prove durable enough?

Was the slight point increase that significant of a nerf after all?

I wouldn't call a 70 point hike a "slight increase", I'd call it pretty significant. Especially considering how most other units were simultaneously made much cheaper. In the context the nerf was huge.

Not a bad point about the increase in contrast to simultaneous decreases elsewhere!

In isolation, 70 points on a 470? Point model was a 1/6 increase. Obviously relevant for mathhammer purposes, but that’s still slight compared to like increases we’ve experienced historically (e.g., ABs from 6th to 7th going up 70pts from 90 to 160).

Nonetheless, whether “slight” or not, I agree it was significant—do you think that’s the only reason it’s not played now?

sieGermans wrote:


Not a bad point about the increase in contrast to simultaneous decreases elsewhere!

In isolation, 70 points on a 470? Point model was a 1/6 increase. Obviously relevant for mathhammer purposes, but that’s still slight compared to like increases we’ve experienced historically (e.g., ABs from 6th to 7th going up 70pts from 90 to 160).

Nonetheless, whether “slight” or not, I agree it was significant—do you think that’s the only reason it’s not played now?

Pretty much, yes. There is a very strong correlation between CA being published and TVs instantly no longer being used. The combination of other units suddenly made viable, and the TV in contrast made less viable, is what I think killed it.

Then again, considering the treatment of the Pylon, it wouldn't surprise me if it's unnerfed or even put back to its original points by the next CA. Same thing happened; Pylon was nerfed by 75 points, people completely stopped using it, then they unnerfed it.

Edit: The knight meta may have further discouraged its use as well, since more things were geared towards anti-titanic, but that wouldn't have been enough to undo it without the nerf

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:

sieGermans wrote:


Not a bad point about the increase in contrast to simultaneous decreases elsewhere!

In isolation, 70 points on a 470? Point model was a 1/6 increase. Obviously relevant for mathhammer purposes, but that’s still slight compared to like increases we’ve experienced historically (e.g., ABs from 6th to 7th going up 70pts from 90 to 160).

Nonetheless, whether “slight” or not, I agree it was significant—do you think that’s the only reason it’s not played now?

Pretty much, yes. There is a very strong correlation between CA being published and TVs instantly no longer being used. The combination of other units suddenly made viable, and the TV in contrast made less viable, is what I think killed it.

Then again, considering the treatment of the Pylon, it wouldn't surprise me if it's unnerfed or even put back to its original points by the next CA. Same thing happened; Pylon was nerfed by 75 points, people completely stopped using it, then they unnerfed it.

Edit: The knight meta may have further discouraged its use as well, since more things were geared towards anti-titanic, but that wouldn't have been enough to undo it without the nerf

I really like your point about the knight meta. Anything that can work against a 3++ knight will fare well against a 4++ TV.

Note that Knights can no longer go to 3++.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Note that Knights can no longer go to 3++.

Indeed. With this and the various other nerfs, if the meta swings away from knights, the TV just might have a place again. Even more so if it's given the Pylon treatment.

Edit: Actually, if the chaos knights alter the meta to force people to deal with T9, the TV, being only toughness 7, could actually prove a little more efficient against such weapons, since the excess strength is wasted. This obviously only matters a little bit, and depends on how chaos knights end up mattering/being used, but it could be worth to take into consideration

 Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
How are the Lychguard surviving or getting into melee? VoD, and then hope for a 9” charge, or do you use the reroll charge warlord trait as well?

Generally I play either NOVA or ITC, which means a lot of LoS blocking terrain. In matchups where they are going to use the Veil, I hide them and pop them out when needed. I don't use the reroll charge trait, would much rather have either immortal pride on the other overlord or exploding 6's on the Novokh one. In matchups where I don't need to deep strike them, I just tend to use them conservatively as a counter assault unit. With the giant NOVA L terrain you can hide them pretty easily, along with wraiths. I've found that having two melee units can really mess up how people play against necrons, because they either dump all their shots into the wraiths instead of immortals/flyers/doomsday arks or the lychguard deep strike and lock down vehicles in the backfield or help clear up an enemy assault.

 p5freak wrote:

 orkdom wrote:
Hey guys,

Just got back from an event called the Cleveland Chainsword Championship, a 50-person GT at a Dave and Busters (awesome venue, highly recommend getting out there for it next year if you can!). I went 5-1 and took 2nd Overall with the following list:

Congrats ! I am a little surprised you have no scarabs. Also surprised you mentioned MWBD on destroyers. I usually never MWBD them, i use EP on them every turn until they die. Which happens pretty fast. You could remove the sautekh spearhead, get rid of the cryptek, add the TBs and DAs to the nephrekh battalion, make it sautekh, and use the cryptek leftover points to replace the overlord with imotekh.

I used to use Stormlord with the Strategem to use MWBD on three squads of Heavy Destroyers, and for what it's worth I had good results. I was told I cannot do that with Stormlord but it was fun while it lasted.

Why would you not be able to use MWBD 3 times on Destroyers?

Immotehk comes stock with 2 uses, the stratagem Phaeron's will lets him use it an additional time.

Nope, not additional time, not a third time, a second time.

 vict0988 wrote:
Nope, not additional time, not a third time, a second time.

By using the power, he designates 2 targets. The stratagem allows him to use it again. Unless an errata clarifies it. I'm sticking to it.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Nope, not additional time, not a third time, a second time.

By using the power, he designates 2 targets. The stratagem allows him to use it again. Unless an errata clarifies it. I'm sticking to it.

That's not what it says.
"Phaeron of the Sautekh Dynasty: Imotekh the Stormlord can use his My Will Be Done ability twice a turn, but only if you choose friendly SAUTEKH INFANTRY units to be affected by it both times."

"Use this Stratagem after an OVERLORD from your army has used their My Will Be Done or Wave of Command ability. That model can immediately use that ability for a second time this turn."

An Errata does clarify it: abilities/stratagems which specifically allow a unit to do something for a "second:" time, such as 1) Imotekh's Phaeron of the Sautekh Dynasty and 2) the Phearon's Will stratagem cannot be stacked.

I believe it was in the Big FAQ from April/May of this year, but I can't pull it up just now.

It's stupid but that's how it is. Heaven forbid our expensive HQs do stuff huh?

Imotekh is in half of competitive lists, no use whining about it and no need to cheat with it. It's fair enough if you didn't get it on your first read, it's a little weird.