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At 140 points, Rockgut trolls are incredibly good, but lets not pretend that anecdotal evidence is everything here. Before we get all bent out of shape, lets gather more information on the lists being used. Is Frozenwastes exclusively using trolls? There are lots of ways to break the game at 1k points.

From what's being said, it sounds like they're playing against MSU lists...which frankly, deserve to do poorly in all respects.

Why would MSU lists deserve to do poorly?

 Da Boss wrote:
Why would MSU lists deserve to do poorly?

Why should they be able to do well?

You shouldn't be rewarded for spamming units of 5 Sequitors with 3x Greatmaces or units of 10 Thralls or whatever other MSU nonsense is happening of late.

It's a problem in both AoS and 40k that needs a solution, and currently the solution seems to be these weird off-kilter lists. Want to MSU? Cool, Trolls are gonna MSU you a hell of a lot better.

MSU is in my opinion way better than hordes.

Depends on the unit style. Daemonettes and Marauders in a Hedonite army are far better at max size than they are at minimum. 40 marauders seem like nothing until they explode for 3 hits on 6’s, re-roll 1s to hit and wound. Meanwhile 20 swing a lot less. I would definitely agree that minimum sized ELITE units are better than max sized elite units. Wherein max sized hordes are better than min sized hordes.

Please don't interpret my post as an argument that the balance is bad for all peoples. It is just a handful of games among a very casual crowd. The only reason I'm remarking on it at all is that I am an advocate of players fixing the issue themselves by taking less points when their stuff is OP. In this case however things were so one sided it just felt bad for all involved. Usually after a day of gaming if something feels OP the person will just take 7-10% less points next club day and it's cool. I had to do that to 20-25% and gave a lot of negative play experiences on the way down.

As for the dice, they were about average but the times I got a double turn it was devestating but the times I got a double turn against me were no big deal. I lost an extra troll here or there.

It's definitely an MSU issue. If my opponents took 2xmin units instead of minimum sizes then they wouldn't lose out on fighting back after trolls do 8+ wounds to a unit. 9-12 wounds worth of models can still hit back, but 0-2 does nothing.

The other thing that definitely was a contributing factor is that in smaller games there can be less models (or units) involved in combat. So when I pick things to fight and render an opponent unable to fight back by killing so much stuff, it means they did very little in that fight phase. And if they go first and it's like 10 attacks at 4+ 3+ 1 damage I can often not lose a troll at all. If they weren't MSUing it and that gets bumped up to 15-20 attacks I'll definitely lose a troll, sometimes two.

I'm also going to change my painting plan and get some variety into the army for going to 2K. It'll still be trolls at the core but variety of gitz for the other 1k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
From what's being said, it sounds like they're playing against MSU lists...which frankly, deserve to do poorly in all respects.

I agree that MSU is the main issue here.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Please don't interpret my post as an argument that the balance is bad for all peoples. It is just a handful of games among a very casual crowd. The only reason I'm remarking on it at all is that I am an advocate of players fixing the issue themselves by taking less points when their stuff is OP. In this case however things were so one sided it just felt bad for all involved. Usually after a day of gaming if something feels OP the person will just take 7-10% less points next club day and it's cool. I had to do that to 20-25% and gave a lot of negative play experiences on the way down.

As for the dice, they were about average but the times I got a double turn it was devestating but the times I got a double turn against me were no big deal. I lost an extra troll here or there.

It's definitely an MSU issue. If my opponents took 2xmin units instead of minimum sizes then they wouldn't lose out on fighting back after trolls do 8+ wounds to a unit. 9-12 wounds worth of models can still hit back, but 0-2 does nothing.

The other thing that definitely was a contributing factor is that in smaller games there can be less models (or units) involved in combat. So when I pick things to fight and render an opponent unable to fight back by killing so much stuff, it means they did very little in that fight phase. And if they go first and it's like 10 attacks at 4+ 3+ 1 damage I can often not lose a troll at all. If they weren't MSUing it and that gets bumped up to 15-20 attacks I'll definitely lose a troll, sometimes two.

I'm also going to change my painting plan and get some variety into the army for going to 2K. It'll still be trolls at the core but variety of gitz for the other 1k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
From what's being said, it sounds like they're playing against MSU lists...which frankly, deserve to do poorly in all respects.

I agree that MSU is the main issue here.

What is your 1k army build? What were your opponents builds?

I have never played an MSU army but surely it is a legitimate style of play? Is it generally over powered and needs to be powered down to be equal to hordes?

 Da Boss wrote:
I have never played an MSU army but surely it is a legitimate style of play? Is it generally over powered and needs to be powered down to be equal to hordes?

Every army is different. The units themselves can be the problem. All MSU is not created equally. For instance, if I play Sylvaneth, with Spite-Revenants I can get 10x Units of 5 for 600 points, where as with Kurnoth Hunters, I could only get 3x Units of 3 for 600 points. Neither of those units get inherently better as they are taken in bigger units, but if you were to take a min unit of dryads and compare it to a make unit of dryads, there are bonuses for being bigger.

Also note, that MSU can be more problematic to your opponents spells/shooting/melee, because your opponent has to target multiple units instead of putting everything into one big unit.