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Made in gb
[DCM]
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant






Deathwing Terminator 5" 3+ 3+ 4 4 3 2 8 2+

They also have a 5++ and permanent Transhuman: each time an attack is made against that unit, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have.

Also they have obsec.

The reason I am asking is they will likely be choosing a Secondary that nets them 15 points for staying on their backfield objective for the whole game.

Ta

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/22 09:34:18


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I don't think you will see 10 man terminator squads camping on backfield objectives, you will see 5 man squads, maybe 7, but that is a lot of points left in the backfield that could be spent on terminators/ravenwing causing havoc in the opponents defensive lines.

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OK, permanent transhuman is pretty bad.

That would reduce the damage done by the DKOK Combat engineers to "just" 1.944/1.30 dead Termies per gas bomb volley. Still not bad for a 70 points unit.

The thing with the Death Riders might still work. Especially if we assume "only" 5 Termies.

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Deathwing terms do feel like a tough nut to crack. The only thing I'd imagine would be at least the lasguns are the same on them as any terminators. Which isn't great. I'm not sure what we'd have to handle them well.

Now, if the battle cannon is buffed up like it is for the cannon on the defiler to be Dam 3 flat, that would make for a good answer to deathwing terms, other than the wounding them on only 4+ part, but one wound killing a model is golden. This may end up a problem we need a new book to really fix.

Unless you are just flooding them with lasguns then bodies and hoping for the best.
   
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I keep thinking that in the end, they are still just 5 dudes, obsec or not. I don't think we currently have something in our arsenal to kill them efficiently (a big "maybe" for our psykers) but as long as we can keep them busy somehow, they are easy to outnumber as long as a single guardsman/scion is nearby to negate the obsec.

As mentioned: they take their good time to kill away death riders. They aren't very efficient in clearing crusaders either. 5 termies with their 15 attacks on the charge only kill on average ~4 Crusaders per fight phase (64 points). One of those might come back per acts of faith, another via medpack... it's risky but might work, givven you can drive 10 Crusaders into them (which are roughly the same price)

Edit: "might work" meaning: "might keep them from scoring"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/22 12:13:10


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Peterborough

reflections regarding termies.

have I got this right? Transhuman means wounding on better than 4+ redundant (so strength 4 sweet spot)?

And in terms of AP you want to push them to their invul - after that its wasted.

Hotshot lasguns?
Bulgryn Mauls?

No ideas beyond that apart from a nod towards Pyroalchi point about keeping them from scoring. If we can obsec cancel the objective for less points or similar points over course of game then successful even if not killing them. In matched play I think that's the right way to think about it.



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While I love my Wyvern, it's mortars are just enough without any AP. Very 40/60 odds if not firing it at something it excels at killing, chaff low strength inf or smalls squads that lack reroll or high enough saves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/22 15:39:49


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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I don't think you will see 10 man terminator squads camping on backfield objectives, you will see 5 man squads, maybe 7, but that is a lot of points left in the backfield that could be spent on terminators/ravenwing causing havoc in the opponents defensive lines.


Maybe, but... have you seen that dark angels secondary objective? Essentially you hold one objective all game with the same squad, you get 15 VP's. So in a hold one/hold two mission doing that is worth 30 VP's. If I was a marine player, I wouldn't mind spending about a fifth of my points to secure 30% of the total VP's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thanks Pyroalchi, my first thought was engineers but I'm not sure they are the guys for this job...

I'm still mulling it over myself; I'd say a good starting point would be some softening up with a pair of fully buffed manticores



Automatically Appended Next Post:
40kGuarddaddy wrote:
reflections regarding termies.

have I got this right? Transhuman means wounding on better than 4+ redundant (so strength 4 sweet spot)?

And in terms of AP you want to push them to their invul - after that its wasted.

Hotshot lasguns?
Bulgryn Mauls?

No ideas beyond that apart from a nod towards Pyroalchi point about keeping them from scoring. If we can obsec cancel the objective for less points or similar points over course of game then successful even if not killing them. In matched play I think that's the right way to think about it.




Yes St4 /-3ap is most efficient it seems; Lambda Lions with hot shot volley guns might be good. Given the challenge is to take a backfield objective, their obsec and deep strike will also be most welcome... and 30 of them is less points than these 10 practical dreadnoughts. I'll do the mathhammering when I sober up.

Bullgryn always a good shout, for anything you need doing, problem in this case is getting them there.

I tell you what though comrades, these ass-tartes don't stand a chance against a brave guard commander with a theoryhammer in his hand and some cheese in his backpocket.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/22 21:19:03


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I just read that secondary objectives and seriously: I would not worry so much. One can pretty easily Ruin the party by taking the objective for only one round

It counts how many consecutive rounds one squad holds one specific objective and then grants VP. 2 for 2 rounds, 3 for 3, 5 for 4+.

So deepstrike in some Obsec bodies on turn 3 and something they will need more than one turn/two fightphases to kill and the objective can score them 4 points max. 2 for the consecutive 1st and 2nd turn they held it, another two for the consecutive 4th and 5th, as they have to start counting again after losing it.
As mentioned: crusaders, Deathriders, maybe a Chimera or Sentinels in their cheapest possible Setup + one barebones Scion squad close enough to negate obsec. If he looses the objective die to being outnumbered just one turn, he looses most of the VP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/22 22:28:44


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Sweet deal, case closed. I'm still gonna do the maths on them lambda's vs termies though, reckon we got 'em licked.

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I calculate a piece of lambda cheese (FRFSRF/precision drop/mortal wounds strat backed by an astropath=malstrom and a single tempest prime in a valkyrie) would reliably kill 3 such basterds.

It is, however, very wise to have something like a midrange leman russ to point at the pile and fire, as well as the traditional pair of tank acey manticores.

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How many terminators would you need to block out the whole 3" circle around a 40mm objective? I am guessing 5 would be plenty to at least make sure that you can't get more than 5 dudesmen within 3" yourself.
   
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Dukeofstuff wrote:
I calculate a piece of lambda cheese (FRFSRF/precision drop/mortal wounds strat backed by an astropath=malstrom and a single tempest prime in a valkyrie) would reliably kill 3 such basterds.

It is, however, very wise to have something like a midrange leman russ to point at the pile and fire, as well as the traditional pair of tank acey manticores.


Nice. Yeah I am liking the Demolisher here, probably in a Spotter Details detachment for the extra range - or an Executioner. Gunnery Experts regiment and Tank Ace Slow and Purposeful to re-roll 1's to wound if extra buffs is needed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
hangnailnz wrote:
How many terminators would you need to block out the whole 3" circle around a 40mm objective? I am guessing 5 would be plenty to at least make sure that you can't get more than 5 dudesmen within 3" yourself.


Yes could be a concern if the only plan is to throw bodies at them, it's a suicide mission to charge, should get enough wiggle room to pile in somehow maybe, don't know.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/23 04:59:35


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I wrote you just had to get something in there that can survive 2 fight phases, but it's not even that, it's one at most.
The DA objective states, that you have to hold it for consecutive turns in the command phase. So (assuming the DA player starts:
1st turn: DA holds the objective, IG does something else
2nd turn: DA holds the objective, scores 2 VP for holding it 2 consecutive turns, IG brings 1+ dude with obsec +enough other stuff that a total of 11+ survive the fight phase within 3'' of the objective, therefore they hold it.
3rd turn: in his command phase the DA does not hold the objective and does not score. He kills the IG rabble at the objective. IG turn: does whatever else he wants, you can also fall back with the guys that contested the objective, doesn't matter any more.
4th turn: DA player does not score VP, as the counter reset and he only held it one consecutive turn, IG does whatever he likes
5th turn: DA player score 2 points again, for a total of 4VP from that objective.

You could also contest the objective in turn 3, which would result in the DA player scoring 5 VP in total, but the baseline is: as long as you contest it for just one of your own turns somewhere in the middle of the game you botched the whole party for him.


Regarding the possibility of closing off the objective with Terminators:
The 3'' radius around a 40mm objective has a circumference of 49 cms. So if the DA player really lines his 10 Termies up in a ring he can indeed close the objective off with slightly less than a cm in between any two termies. But then he runs into the problem that when you charge in lets say a densly packed Bullgryn group, not all of his Terminators can react. See the attached picture in which as far as I understand it only the deep red Terminators could be selected to fight, while all of the Bullgryns are either within 1/2'' of a Termie or within 1/2'' of a Bullgryn that is within 1/2'' of a Termie.
So I would say: if the DA player lines them up: try charging him with a dedicated CC unit (Bullgryns or death riders) and hold some obsec dudes nearby to contest the objective once an opening apears. If the termies huddle close together "just" bring 11+ dudes (1+ obsec) within 3'' for one of your turns.
[Thumb - Terminators.png]


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The thing is, this is a very exposed target.
Things are terminators but they lack the stormshields to be actually resilient, their only trick is making you use a larger volume of ap capable fire to crush them. They lack COVER because they are on an objective, dear gods, so their 2+ save is an actual 2+ save. The sheer novelty of that being what it says makes me giddy like a schoolgirl at the thought, as I usually am targeting T5 3+ crap that is dug into cover, and +1 from the stormshield's save bonus, and has feel no pain and a 4++ save. Or T4 with 2+/4++ and +1 to save from the stormshield and another +1 from cover.
so back to the pathetic attempt by ravenwing to beat gaurd.

Taurox swarm by scions = roughly 120 s4/-1/1 shots (no cover on an objective) = roughly 70 hits = roughly 35 saves = roughly 17 failed saves or 5.6 dead. and that's before you fire all the hotshotvolleyguns you brought along, for another 7.7 wounds, or another 3.5 dead. brings you with one (admittedly massive) salvo to 9 of them dead, and the taurox swarm can pivot to kill something else in comfort knowing that you can always swing back on the drop turn ... or simply clear the objective by

Each manticore firing at them will .58 x .5 x .5 kills per shot, or roughly 1.16 per turn dead. So 2 or 3 with 2 manticores blazing from the backline.
Each basilisk will somewhat underperform .. only .5 dead a turn. Still, if your gaurd artillery wing is 2 mantis (tank ace tank ace) and a basilisk, you should be able to kill 6 of them by turn 2.

By the time your bullygrn mob arrives, on turn 3, there should be nothing there to worry them -- so I would say send some obsec gaurdsmen via the reserves feat and keep your bullgyrn in the midfield, and watch that frustrated last termie repeatedly whack gaurdsmen with his one wittle thunder hammer in frustration.

Correction. WITH stormshields, this unit does achieve what I consider average to good resilience, but at the cost of 10 points per model extra, and absurdly, it has to sacrifice all its ranged weaponry options, so you can deepstrike right beside it and fire those meltas into it. With no worries. That's 430 points of unit.
Lambda lions are not the only valid attack -- hotshotvolley guns from 24 inches out in command squads, firing at +1 to hit with no penalty for the disembark, would give you a fairly wicked rate of hits, still wound on a 4.5.6 and still pin these guys back to 3+ saves -- from a range they can't shoot back. so even the pathetically weak seeming non lambda hotshots have some impact on these guys! It does make the manticore a bit worse for shooting, of course, as 1/3 rather than


Also, a side note. 10 crusaders is a mere 160 points, far less than 5 of these guys with stormshields. And if they haven't got stormshields, their saves against crusaders (each of whom should score nearly 3 hits on the charge) will be ... 1 point of damage in melee unsaved per crusader. Or 3 dead termies who don't get to respond in melee, per 10 man crusaders hitting them, leaving 22 swings with a weapon that hits only on a 4+, or 11 hits, which means roughly 9 saves, and crusaders, properly buffed, are saving on 3++ from an astropath, so properly, 3 die.
TWO can be rezzed by farily sneaky "a miracle and a medic" schtick. oh, and if you have TWO psyker effects in play, your astropath +1 to save aND -1 to hit, you expect to be hit only about 8 times, or about 7 hits, or 2 or 3 dead cruxes.
That's not a win for this expensive as hell unit going up against 160 points of crusader, 45 of priest, and about 70 of support psykers.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/02/23 09:10:45


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@ Dukeofstuff: yeah, I think what you describe might be the most effective option to handle that problem. Thanks.

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I think it matters a great deal if he has stormshields on his guys. But just wear them down, cause someone who is counting on holding that objective probably is convinced his supertermies can't be killed.

And they can. (I mean, I mathed out 10 crusaders taking 10 of them on with good odds of winning, after all. That's absurdly good odds for gaurd.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/23 09:20:38


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Yeah more I mull this over the more I feel like perhaps we lack some punch for these new terminators. Loaded Manticore is a good look though. That or flood ob sec bodies and much like a zombie horde hope they can't kill them all fast enough. Which could work.
   
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As mentioned: capturing the objective just one of your turn is enough to dramatically reduced the VP for that objective. And as the DA Player can do nothing between you capturing it and his command phase one does not have to survive long. Afterwards he has 300-400 points of his army that failed at what they were expected to do.

One other thought: how are those termies in respect to morale? Might some morale shananigans work?

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Peterborough

So mortal wound output for guard.

What's best 'psykerbomb'?

conclave strat to give both Wyrdvane and Primaris double cast with +2
24pts = 3 Wyrdvane Psykers
SMITE1 (5+ becomes 3+ with strat on 1d6)
Another power with +2 on 1d6 (defensive buff?)

50pts = Primaris Psyker1
SMITE2 (6+ on 2d6)

50pts = Primaris Psyker2 (wyrdvane boosted)
SMITE3 (7+ becomes 5+ on 2d6)
Maelstrom (7+ becomes 5+ on 2d6)

60pts Inquisitor
Castigation (6+ 2d6 - beat enemy leadership on 3D6 for D3 mortal wounds)

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Note that I do a real similar mortal wound bomb a lot. Invariably, its stepping out of one of my flyers to do its thing to the enemy, after hovering forward.
You misstated something about wyrdvanes, they get +1 on that d6 for having 3 or more models in the unit, and +2 if six or more. So in the conclave, they really are rolling that smite at +3. +1 to save is a very useful thing here, if you go in for (for example) a 30 man conscript squad and slap alpha psyker on the inquisitor, that brings it up to 30 4++ t3 bodies. A further defense strat and cover can drop that to 2+/4++, not too shabby. Although I have never heard of a wyrdvane unit of 1 or 2 survivors beign around to cast again, they would then, and only then, cast the smite on a 2+. Another plus 1 is not trivial -- means they get the spell to work on a 2, not a 3!
A malleus inquisitor can throw castigate and if you boosted it with a 1 cp strat, cast that 6+ smite on 2d6 as well, in the same turn. 1 cp arbiter of the emporers will and the malleus psychic mastery warlord trait for +1 cast, deny, and known spell. Also, a free relic (usually the -1 to be wounded relic). If you want to get cute with it, consider alpha psyker and the ability to know and deny a third, which in malleus lets you potentially cast 5++ on a friendly infantry unit that hasn't got it. Like conscripts or a ball of cojoined squads.

This shaves a single psyker primaris out of the list (50 points is 50 points) while converting 1 cp into an extra inquisitor cast, and novel extra spell spell (from a different list) and deny, so basically, you get something different rather than being forced to take malstrom again (sigh) or dip into the glory that is the gaze of the emperor (a suicidal spell).

I often use psychic pursuit as that extra spell, paired with a combimelta. So that you can tailor it. (smite wyrd! smite inquisitor! smite primaris!) and then follow up with
against (for example) a bunch of enemy gravis armor, throw on a castigate and a malstrom. This would be the way to go after (for example) ghaz lurking behind a bunch of ork boys, and still, hopefully, do the 4 points damage that saturated him for the phase even though he can't be smite targetted directly.
OR
flip the middle smite over to be psychic pursuit, and point the melta, castigate, and malstrom at an enemy character in the second rank of the army, to try to debuff them. This would be the "what happens to your army when your apothecary doesn't do all that crap, eh? eh?" side. Not all officers are shield capable nightmares, so you can strip out thigns like an enemy chaplain that cost the foe 130 points in a single average shooting turn!
You lose 1 smite but can gain the world if that was a dead critical officer, and its nice in the shooting phase to be able to say "and my psyker inquisitorius melts your face off now."
Although 1 cp more, this variation bomb is 40 points cheaper than the bomb you have, which is enough to rope in a single astropath .. or a second wyrdvane unit to hold in a transport so you can do the conclave trick twice, even though its just DEAD on turn 1.

Also, every melta matters, and you have an officer with a melta shot now, which is something gaurd struggles to achieve.

Its a fairly cheap total unit loadout. It can be done (minus the extra astropath or wyrdvanes) for a mere 134 points (if you don't bother with the melta gun on the malleus). Seems well worth it!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/23 15:12:27


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Peterborough

Yes - these combos are great - thanks

Really helpful when list building to know them.

I've got as good interesting chunks (infantry)

reserve/deep strike plasma bomb
Buffed Bullgryn
Pysker mortal wounds bomb
Conscript tar pit/blob (strat/pyschic buffed)

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Duke and Pyroalchi, thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this. Also that's the first time I heard of a 'Mortal Wound Bomb'. Love it.
It just goes to show, sometimes people get worried about new stuff being OP, and codex creep... just 'cos it's new and unknown. I think it's fun figuring out ways to kill the hotness.
Next up are the emo-goth kinky space elfs; let's see what 'broken' squads and rules they get. They would probably enjoy a spanking with Bullgryn Maul.

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I rather think they would -- as its basically a marine unit but easier to kill, and they are basically the best marine kill group out there right now.

What they would HATE is digging a bunch of little frag grenade and flamer wielding gaurd out of the vahallan (life is cheap) game. Because if you can fire into melee with those weapons, s3 harliquins are in TROUBLE.

They can't tie you up and survive if you then dump 256 s3 hits onto them and they have to .. dear ... god... what ... make 128 saves at 3+ or 4+? Sure, your own unit just vanished in the lasgun hail, but that only leaves the out of turn harliquins as valid targets for your secret superweapon.

The gaurd squad with a mortar.

In summary, you need a bunch of decent shooting anti-mid armor to tear up and destroy their transports. Like scions and command squads, like tank commanders with the executioner cannon (cause range matters here) and like veterans. Put those together, and you can volume of fire their little squads out of their shiny carriers, and then, its just a squad of FIVE s3 bodies ot take down with lasguns.

Seriously, gaurd doesn't NOTICE that crap, its called target practice for a squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/23 22:56:04


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If you have the models, is there a reason that you wouldn't want to run a Krieg Pony Outrider? 2 DR Commanders, 3 DR Command Squads and 3 10-man DR Squads is 44 models that are super sticky, have a solid damage output on a charge and and runs 720 points leaving lots to play with, 1080 points total if you include your 6 Infantry/Plasma Gun squads for your main Battalion.

Screening becomes easy peasy and tarpitting with multi-wound 4+/5+++ models opens up pretty nasty counterfire falling back on your own turn.
   
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@ Cygnus: from a theoretical point of view I'm totally in board with you. But I think it would be great if someone could confirm that after practically testing it out. Theoryhammer can only bring us that far and it might always be that we missed something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 06:20:17


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That's over £1000 of resin right there. The kit is nice (I have 15 ponies myself) but 44 very static-posed ponies would start to grate too.
   
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Bristol (UK)

That's only a problem if you want to play in official events.
Cavalry isn't that hard to come by if you're not worried about using only official Forgeworld models.
Swap a few heads and weapons perhaps and boom...
   
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If money is no issue, death riders are intensely fun and cool. I've run some, at least in 8th and they did very well for me there. I would love to field a large force of them.
   
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Yep and even at official events you could get away with conversions right? as long as they are all GW models?

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