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2021/04/12 16:34:39
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Tabletop Simulator is fantastic for playing with people outside of your area; lots of support for various tabletop games in the Steam Workshop too.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 16:34:57
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2021/04/12 17:02:50
Subject: Re:Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Second Story Man
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FrozenDwarf wrote:In the grand mini world, GW is just a small pebble. New games is just a mouseclick away.
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. I can go to any LGS here and I will find 40K and AoS. Next most popular is X-Wing followed by Star Wars Legion. Infinity is also close up in there, but not quite as much. When games are being played, invariably there is a 40K game going on, even when there's a tournament or similar event of another game going on.
So not a small pebble.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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2021/04/12 17:34:49
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk. Just a story about pricing: For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work. I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis. The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it? Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 17:36:20
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2021/04/12 18:07:18
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Fixture of Dakka
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Unit1126PLL wrote:My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk.
Just a story about pricing:
For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work.
I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis.
The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it?
Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
LOL, I know right?
I've got a similar absurd price story that highlights that something is out of wack....
So, it was early Nov. 2020. I'm in Walmart picking up some dog food. Now WM had been running different weekly Black Friday Thanksgiving sales since like mid-Oct. I turn a corner of an aisle & pass a stackout of 60" 4g/ HD smart TVs with all the bells & whistles. Price: $185 (now I've never heard of the particular brand, so if I plug one of these in it might well just melt, but...)
Once done at WM I stop through the FLGS a few miles down the road. This time I actually am Christmas shopping for others.
The guys at the counter are just unpacking their GW delivery. They show me the newly arrived AS Mega-Gargant. Only $200! they joke.
WTF???
A wall sized TV (of questionable quality): $185
A single plastic 6"(?) giant model by GW: $200
Meanwhile Mantic sells a very nice 6" plastic giant for about $40.....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:09:19
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2021/04/12 18:08:28
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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ccs wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk.
Just a story about pricing:
For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work.
I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis.
The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it?
Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
LOL, I know right?
I've got a similar absurd price story that highlights that something is out of wack....
So, it was early Nov. 2020. I'm in Walmart picking up some dog food. Now WM had been running different weekly Black Friday Thanksgiving sales since like mid-Oct. I turn a corner of an aisle & pass a stackout of 60" 4g/ HD smart TVs with all the bells & whistles. Price: $185 (now I've never heard of the particular brand, so if I plug one of these in it might well just melt, but...)
Once done at WM I stop through the FLGS a few miles down the road. This time I actually am Christmas shopping for others.
The guys at the counter are just unpacking their GW delivery. They show me the newly arrived AS Mega-Gargant. Only $200! the joke.
WTF???
A wall sized TV (of questionable quality): $185
A single plastic 6"(?) giant model by GW: $200
Meanwhile Mantic sells a very nice 6" plastic giant for about $40.....
Recently i bought a shovel for my garden and I remarked to my partner that this fairly high quality, well made stainless steel shovel cost exactly as much as one single monopose plastic howling banshee miniature from GW.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2021/04/12 18:09:33
Subject: Re:Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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BlackoCatto wrote:Not Online!!! wrote: FrozenDwarf wrote:Just find a different game.
When you get a one track mind, you shut yourself off to other gaming experiences.
In the grand mini world, GW is just a small pebble. New games is just a mouseclick away.
Yes, sadly the groups for them,.... not so much often.
It is hard as Hell to get people in my area to play something not 40k.
since 6/7th we don't have that issue anymore, GW lost it's defacto monopoly through it's blunders. Still i member when the scene locally wasn't as diverse..
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2021/04/12 18:12:38
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference. I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:13:33
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2021/04/12 18:41:14
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Second Story Man
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
it does not matter if you are cheaper with better quality if the PR Department of the other company puts more money into advertising per month than your whole company is making in years
but more seriously, GW is doing a fantastic job about making it "the Warhammer Hobby" (or Games Workshop Hobby) with everything going down to the Wargaming Hobby & Miniature Painting Hobby = Warhammer and, there is nothing else
and they are not focusing on expanding the community, their focus is that new people interested to the hobby make the first contact with it with a GW game, GW paints and GW models
getting used to the price and style of the models and no matter of they stay or not the important part is that their first wargaming purchase is a GW 2 player Starter Set (as those that are drop out won't touch another wargame very soon but go for something different while the others stay with GW)
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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2021/04/12 18:44:20
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Is that literally it? "I'm not having fun with Warhammer and dislike XYZ" "Well, try this other game. It's cheaper with better rules and fixes all the things you dislike." "Oh, no thanks, I'd rather play Warhammer. Their PR department is better."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:44:34
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2021/04/12 18:52:08
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ccs wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk.
Just a story about pricing:
For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work.
I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis.
The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it?
Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
LOL, I know right?
I've got a similar absurd price story that highlights that something is out of wack....
So, it was early Nov. 2020. I'm in Walmart picking up some dog food. Now WM had been running different weekly Black Friday Thanksgiving sales since like mid-Oct. I turn a corner of an aisle & pass a stackout of 60" 4g/ HD smart TVs with all the bells & whistles. Price: $185 (now I've never heard of the particular brand, so if I plug one of these in it might well just melt, but...)
Once done at WM I stop through the FLGS a few miles down the road. This time I actually am Christmas shopping for others.
The guys at the counter are just unpacking their GW delivery. They show me the newly arrived AS Mega-Gargant. Only $200! they joke.
WTF???
A wall sized TV (of questionable quality): $185
A single plastic 6"(?) giant model by GW: $200
Meanwhile Mantic sells a very nice 6" plastic giant for about $40.....
What is out of whack?
Do those producers have:
1) brick and mortar stores?
2) a monthly magazine?
3) models that require artistic talent to produce?
4) their own onshore production facility or do they run it out of china?
5) models that are highly detailed and require complex overlapping shapes?
It's also quite silly to ignore the economies of scale between a TV and a plastic miniature.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:55:57
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2021/04/12 19:00:04
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Second Story Man
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Is that literally it?
"I'm not having fun with Warhammer and dislike XYZ"
"Well, try this other game. It's cheaper with better rules and fixes all the things you dislike."
"Oh, no thanks, I'd rather play Warhammer. Their PR department is better."
translate as PR department to "but the other game does not have such high quality plastic minis", "the background is not as deep as Warhammer", "there are not as many different factions", "Warhammer is as balanced as such a big game can be and perfect balance is impossible", "I will never find other people playing this game", "I don't want to play this game because I don't like the models", "I want to play Space Marines as Space Marines but the other game does not have specific rules for my Space Marines" and so on
problem is when people complain about Warhammer not being fun and not liking specific things, they don't want a game from a different company, they want GW to make a better Warhammer
Even if they switch the game, they want the other game to become Warhammer and will always come back the original as soon as GW promise a change
the GW PR departmant made sure that there is no other game as good as Warhammer so you don't even need to try to find one, and if you find one there will be no players the models are ugly and the rules will have limited amount of different factions
no matter 1 faction in Chain of Command offer more different ways to play than all factions in 40k together, that there are much better and cheaper models out there than the 20 year old plastics you have to deal with in 40k, and much more players if you just look outside the GW store
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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2021/04/12 19:04:45
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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kodos wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:Is that literally it? "I'm not having fun with Warhammer and dislike XYZ" "Well, try this other game. It's cheaper with better rules and fixes all the things you dislike." "Oh, no thanks, I'd rather play Warhammer. Their PR department is better." translate as PR department to "but the other game does not have such high quality plastic minis", "the background is not as deep as Warhammer", "there are not as many different factions", "Warhammer is as balanced as such a big game can be and perfect balance is impossible", "I will never find other people playing this game", "I don't want to play this game because I don't like the models", "I want to play Space Marines as Space Marines but the other game does not have specific rules for my Space Marines" and so on problem is when people complain about Warhammer not being fun and not liking specific things, they don't want a game from a different company, they want GW to make a better Warhammer Even if they switch the game, they want the other game to become Warhammer and will always come back the original as soon as GW promise a change the GW PR departmant made sure that there is no other game as good as Warhammer so you don't even need to try to find one, and if you find one there will be no players the models are ugly and the rules will have limited amount of different factions no matter 1 faction in Chain of Command offer more different ways to play than all factions in 40k together, that there are much better and cheaper models out there than the 20 year old plastics you have to deal with in 40k, and much more players if you just look outside the GW store Ah, good point. Still, it's fascinating.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 19:05:56
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2021/04/12 19:06:07
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Second Story Man
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Daedalus81 wrote:
1) brick and mortar stores?
2) a monthly magazine?
3) models that require artistic talent to produce?
4) their own onshore production facility or do they run it out of china?
5) models that are highly detailed and require complex overlapping shapes?
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Automatically Appended Next Post:
this for sure, I still can't get fully behind it that people at least recognize that there is something else as I would accept that not finding a groups is an issue
but than I see that people that are deep in The 9th Age are talking similar about Kings of War and Age of Sigmar as some people playing Warhammer doing about other games
so I think this is more of an issue with the people and that GW attracts and grows some special attitude
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 19:11:41
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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2021/04/12 19:15:35
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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kodos wrote:
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
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2021/04/12 19:48:24
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Battleship Captain
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Daedalus81 wrote: kodos wrote:
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
You know TV's are basically simple computers now and involve wifi cards and processor chips now right? Just because Toshiba doesn't make a magazine or a dedicated Toshiba TV Shop doesn't mean they ONLY need to funnel profits into producing and shipping TVs. Hell, their advertising budget is probably higher then GWs annual revenue.
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2021/04/12 19:53:34
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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At the end of the day, personal preference and, y'know, actually having people to play with is a big deal.
A friend recently got into the Fallout miniatures game and wanted everyone to get into it. The models looked... decent, compared to many others out there. I've played the Fallout games and such, but when I look at it I just see another box that's going to take up space in an already cramped hobby room.
I've also tried to get people into other miniatures games, and a lot of the excuses are the same. There's a bit of 'sunk cost' when it comes to warhammer. People have already put so much money and time into it that they don't want to spend more money and time learning a new system.
With friends that haven't touched wargaming at all, they're either going to be open to it because they're nerds like me or are not going to be open to it because they aren't nerds. That's really what it boils down to. I've got a nerdy friend that's all into VR and such, but doesn't want to sink money into wargaming because he knows full well what a time and money sink it is.
I don't really think it's a point that needs to be argued to death (like so many other points in this thread). Either you're going to pick up a different game system or you're not. No voice on the internet is going to change your mind. You'll get into it if it's interesting enough and you think you can convince your friends to join you.
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2021/04/12 19:59:33
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 20:00:57
Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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2021/04/12 20:12:11
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Daedalus81 wrote: kodos wrote:
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
Yep. Thinks the only cost is the plastic, and calculates price comparisons based on that.
The machine that prints the boxes is the same machine that prints hundreds of thousands of other products as well, so the infrastructure costs for printing are small, and further offset by printing cereal boxes in addition to 40k products, and probably dozens if not hundreds of other products as well.
By contrast, every single sprue requires its own mold. I'm not enough of an expert on casting processes, but another Dakkanaught once explained that the molds for plastics are orders of magnitude more expensive than resin molds because every component on each sprue requires its own injector, where resin sprues only require a handful of injectors to do the entire sprue. And then you take a look at how many sprues exist in 40k's current catalogue and compare it to any other game, and it's just... Really not that much of a contest.
And then you realize there are similar number of sprues for AoS!
I don't collect any other wargames, though I have played many, so I don't have the best starting point to do the research, nor the interest to do it, but of the "competition" to gw, I'm curious to see what the numbers look like if you compare number of factions and number of unique models in the current range. How many Infinity kits are there? How many War Machine kits are there?
(If I recall, the War Machine range actually is pretty extensive, or was the last time I checked, so it might be close)
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2021/04/12 20:19:35
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
Canada
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
It's not just about cost, it's about value. If somebody is not interested in Chain of Command then they are not getting much value for their money. I might prefer that a box of Bladeguard Veterans cost less than 60$ CAD, but I buy one because I assess that I will get value out of the box both from the hobby aspect but also because I know I will get plenty of tabletop time out of them. My choice. Weird eh?
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All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand |
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2021/04/12 20:25:30
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Second Story Man
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WarmaHordes has 9 major factions, 4 minor factions, and the 2 merc and minion factions.
Each of the major factions has about 4 different Themes on their own, with a couple more that are linked to Mercs or Minions.
Mercs is probably the most extensive in numbers, especially if you count the Riot Quest solo models, however they are also the most restrictive in play having one group that can only be played in one Theme, and very few other models can be played in that Theme (Cephalyx in Operating Theater).
However, there are a lot of kits which could be scrunched up in to one like a lot of GW kits are and haven't been yet.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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2021/04/12 20:33:45
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Second Story Man
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PenitentJake wrote: Daedalus81 wrote: kodos wrote:
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
Yep. Thinks the only cost is the plastic, and calculates price comparisons based on that.
The machine that prints the boxes is the same machine that prints hundreds of thousands of other products as well, so the infrastructure costs for printing are small, and further offset by printing cereal boxes in addition to 40k products, and probably dozens if not hundreds of other products as well.
well if you go down that way, the machine that makes the sprues is the same that makes all other sprues
a designer, photographer, painter (for the models on the picture), translator etc.
but the important part is, the cardboard is done externally and not inside GW as far as we know, this is why it is more expensive
it does not matter how many products that machine makes, it does not belong to GW and they have to pay for using it
NinthMusketeer wrote:Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
you can always play 40k with that minis or any other modern/alternative SciFi game
of course you can by GW models that are made to look similar to WW2 Soviets instead and use them only in 1 setting for 1 game
yet the problem that you pay too much for GW minis that you want is a different one as this will happen no matter what game you are playing
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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2021/04/12 20:35:19
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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PenitentJake wrote:...I don't collect any other wargames, though I have played many, so I don't have the best starting point to do the research, nor the interest to do it, but of the "competition" to gw, I'm curious to see what the numbers look like if you compare number of factions and number of unique models in the current range. How many Infinity kits are there? How many War Machine kits are there?
(If I recall, the War Machine range actually is pretty extensive, or was the last time I checked, so it might be close)
Infinity has nine "main" factions (depending on how you define the Tohaa/Spiral Corps split), with ~40-50 different unique profiles each and several individual sculpts with different equipment per profile, not counting cross-faction mercenaries and named characters. They've moved their release model to fewer blisters and more multi-model kits because the SKU bloat was getting out of control.
Warmachine/Hordes has eleven "main" factions (counting mercenaries/minions collectively) and four smaller limited-release factions; main factions have ~100 unique cards and mini-factions have ~40, but in practice packaging attachments with units and 'beast/'jack dual-kits probably drops that to ~70 and ~25 unique kits.
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2021/04/13 00:15:29
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Sim-Life wrote: Daedalus81 wrote: kodos wrote:
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
You know TV's are basically simple computers now and involve wifi cards and processor chips now right? Just because Toshiba doesn't make a magazine or a dedicated Toshiba TV Shop doesn't mean they ONLY need to funnel profits into producing and shipping TVs. Hell, their advertising budget is probably higher then GWs annual revenue.
Most panels, chips etc in TVs are sourced. As in the company doesn't make them and many TVs have similar parts.
We're talking 250 million tvs a year. How many people own a TV? How many own miniatures? That difference is the economy of scale.
Are TVs made on the UK or where labor is cheap? Do TVs have their own stores to sell product?
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2021/04/13 00:27:44
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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kodos wrote:
but the important part is, the cardboard is done externally and not inside GW as far as we know, this is why it is more expensive
it does not matter how many products that machine makes, it does not belong to GW and they have to pay for using it
That's the forest I missed for the trees. Very good point.
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2021/04/13 01:00:11
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
A lot of GWs success at this point is inertia, simple as that. It has lasted and has a large enough base sunk cost takes hold and people will keep rolling on no matter what. They can destroy their own game and tried like hell to do so in 7th but you can't get people as easily to branch out, even if they love the models and/or the rules if they feel there will be no one or very few to play with/against. That is the long and short of it.
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2021/04/13 11:37:33
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Daedalus81 wrote:
What is out of whack?
Do those producers have:
1) brick and mortar stores?
2) a monthly magazine?
3) models that require artistic talent to produce?
4) their own onshore production facility or do they run it out of china?
5) models that are highly detailed and require complex overlapping shapes?
It's also quite silly to ignore the economies of scale between a TV and a plastic miniature.
Why do I, as a consumer, care about any of that stuff? Those are all possible internal justifications for why the price might be high but other than the highly detailed part of point 5 they're not things that really affect my purchasing decisions directly. I'm not looking at buying a box of Necron Warriors and thinking to myself "this seems expensive but it will at least help GW keep their brick and mortar stores open". If a company wants to spend their money giving every employee an office the size of my house and charge accordingly, that's cool, but the only thing that matters is how much they're charging me, not how they're justifying the costs. I don't read WD and I only ever go into my local GW store if I need paint right now, and only then because it's more conveniently located than the other FLGS in the area. If both disappeared overnight the effect on me would be approximately zero. Other models require artistic talent to produce yet other manufacturers produce them much more cheaply. GW's move to more detailed models also hasn't come without its pitfalls. Some of their models are now really annoying to put together because of it and my build time for a unit has gone up considerably since they moved away from having interchangeable parts. That's not a net benefit to me.
PenitentJake wrote:
I don't collect any other wargames, though I have played many, so I don't have the best starting point to do the research, nor the interest to do it, but of the "competition" to gw, I'm curious to see what the numbers look like if you compare number of factions and number of unique models in the current range. How many Infinity kits are there? How many War Machine kits are there?
(If I recall, the War Machine range actually is pretty extensive, or was the last time I checked, so it might be close)
That seems a weird way to compare things. I think one of the problems 40k has is too many factions and too many units. I think pretty much all other games have fewer factions and unique models than GW does but that's not an indicator of quality. As long as the game has enough factions and kits to give you variety and meaningful choice that's enough. Many other games have superior balance to 40k, for example, which means even with fewer factions and models the variety you see on the tabletop is often much greater.
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2021/04/13 12:16:58
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra
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The only models that have a look of being a pain to build/paint, at least IMO, are the centrepiece leaders GW has done recently i.e. the Silent King, Teclis, Mortarion. The majority of an army is still pretty basic stuff if not more so since ETB kits became common. If all of my troops are basic/boring but the elite and character units are more impressive then I don't see an issue with that.
As for interchangeable parts, the majority of units still have this. I think the only armies that struggle are Nids and 'Crons because by definition they are just hordes of copied bodies. A lot of kits are interchangeable with things outside of their faction or even with AoS kits like most of the Human scale kits (Skitarri, GSC, Freeguild, Guardsmen, some AoS elves).
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2021/04/13 13:00:13
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference. I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
If you're not interested in World War 2, I get that. Chain of Command is more an example than anything else though, and I still find it shocking that there is no wargame setting out there that has your attention (or anyone else's). Is there some essence of 40k that makes it way better than any other of the myriad wargame settings that are out there? The "no community" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've bootstrapped 3 games in my club now just by finding them and showing how good and fun they were. The number of players varies (from like 6 to 20) across the 3 games, but we went from zero local players to at least 6 in all cases. The only reason there's "no community" is people don't build the community, and the reason they don't start building the community is "there's no community". All it takes is one World War 2 nerd in the area and a fun toy displayed on your desk (I have a Soviet T-35 on my desk at work and netted myself 2 CoC players that way). The minis is a whole 'nother discussion, but again, is there no setting nor set of minis that look agreeable outside GW? Citadel is cutting edge in its casting and sculpting, but it's not so far ahead of some other efforts as to make their sculpts totally bad. Some 3rd party manufacturers are pretty damn cool, even when they copy emulate GW's designs/concepts. Plus, there are even some games you can play with GW minis that aren't GW themselves, though I think you'd be overpaying at that point. TangoTwoBravo wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference. I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now. It's not just about cost, it's about value. If somebody is not interested in Chain of Command then they are not getting much value for their money. I might prefer that a box of Bladeguard Veterans cost less than 60$ CAD, but I buy one because I assess that I will get value out of the box both from the hobby aspect but also because I know I will get plenty of tabletop time out of them. My choice. Weird eh?
I know, that's a shocking choice is what I'm saying. It's not like World War 2 minis have less hobbying (Though they can if you want, there's a whole gamut of mini manufacturers and requirements). The tabletop time thing is, again, a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone said "someone else has to play the game first" then no one would ever play any games. I do recognize that becoming a community leader is difficult, though, so no worries. Maybe it's COVID keeping me from playing, but if all I'm doing is building and painting the models, I get WAY more value and fun out of World War 2 minis than GW minis, because you get so many for so cheap and they're still excellent quality.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 13:03:03
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2021/04/13 13:52:21
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Slipspace wrote:
Why do I, as a consumer, care about any of that stuff? Those are all possible internal justifications for why the price might be high but other than the highly detailed part of point 5 they're not things that really affect my purchasing decisions directly. I'm not looking at buying a box of Necron Warriors and thinking to myself "this seems expensive but it will at least help GW keep their brick and mortar stores open". If a company wants to spend their money giving every employee an office the size of my house and charge accordingly, that's cool, but the only thing that matters is how much they're charging me, not how they're justifying the costs. I don't read WD and I only ever go into my local GW store if I need paint right now, and only then because it's more conveniently located than the other FLGS in the area. If both disappeared overnight the effect on me would be approximately zero. Other models require artistic talent to produce yet other manufacturers produce them much more cheaply. GW's move to more detailed models also hasn't come without its pitfalls. Some of their models are now really annoying to put together because of it and my build time for a unit has gone up considerably since they moved away from having interchangeable parts. That's not a net benefit to me.
You shouldn't care. My point is purely in regards to why someone might think GW pricing is off the wall.
Perhaps you as a customer don't care about quality. Some cheaper options might be more appealing to you. That doesn't mean GW is grossly overpriced.
I only ever go into my local GW store if I need paint right now, and only then because it's more conveniently located than the other FLGS in the area.
That right there is why GW stores exist. The hobby as we know it would be exposed to fewer people as FLGS tend to be off the beaten path.
Other models require artistic talent to produce yet other manufacturers produce them much more cheaply.
Because they bear none of the other costs. There's whole swaths of miniature makers that depend on GW existing.
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2021/04/13 14:00:47
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Daedalus81 wrote:
Perhaps you as a customer don't care about quality. Some cheaper options might be more appealing to you. That doesn't mean GW is grossly overpriced.
Definitely a strawman. How are GW's one-man stores/ UK manufacturing/ WD upping the quality of their product?
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