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 Rippy wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
What is confusing here sorry? Attacker rolls to hit and wound on the weapon against the squad of his choice.
Defender then chooses who in that squad takes the wound, though has to start with the wounded model.

The attacker has to declare all targets from weapons within in squad prior to start shooting though.(Ie 6 bolters against that squad, multi-melta against that tank etc)

But if you hit with 3 weapons that can cause multiple damage each, then you have to roll each damage separately, otherwise wounds will 'spill over' in the case of multiple wound models.

Yeah so you roll to hit with weapon, roll a D6 for first hit, apply wounds, then roll next D6, apply wounds so on.

Unless the weapon does more than a single D6 damage, there's no particular reason to roll them separately, just to apply them separately. You could still roll them all together.

 Rippy wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
What is confusing here sorry? Attacker rolls to hit and wound on the weapon against the squad of his choice.
Defender then chooses who in that squad takes the wound, though has to start with the wounded model.

The attacker has to declare all targets from weapons within in squad prior to start shooting though.(Ie 6 bolters against that squad, multi-melta against that tank etc)

But if you hit with 3 weapons that can cause multiple damage each, then you have to roll each damage separately, otherwise wounds will 'spill over' in the case of multiple wound models.

Yeah so you roll to hit with weapon, roll a D6 for first hit, apply wounds, then roll next D6, apply wounds so on.

Now, the question is if you have to allocate each wound d6 to a model, or if it affects the entire squad.
If its the latter, then those random hit explosion weapons could be pretty nasty against infantry, with the battle-cannon dealing up to 18 wounds to a squad, if I remember its stat-line correctly.
If its the former, then explosives are now better at killing heavy multi-wound infantry, oddly enough, with the battlecannon only affecting at most 6 models, but potentially killing them super hard.

 insaniak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

With transports being able to charge to soak overwatch you may take them as mobile walls that your guys run behind instead of getting inside...

Harkens back to 2nd ed, where the primary role of the rhino was to drive around ramming enemy vehicles, rather than to transport troops...

I now want to make little powerfist "bumpers" for the front of my tanks so they can punch things they ram into...

That said, depending on how things work both the mobile cover (a method I was fond of during 5th with both CSM and Repentia) and riding inside could be useful.

Plus may see exceptions given to specific vehicles or armies. Too many questions left unanswered.

Like, can I take any Imperial transport in an Imperial army list, or do they need to share a certain level of keyword?

Because if I can my Sisters just gained Land Raiders for their Repentia...

 Rippy wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
What is confusing here sorry? Attacker rolls to hit and wound on the weapon against the squad of his choice.
Defender then chooses who in that squad takes the wound, though has to start with the wounded model.

The attacker has to declare all targets from weapons within in squad prior to start shooting though.(Ie 6 bolters against that squad, multi-melta against that tank etc)

But if you hit with 3 weapons that can cause multiple damage each, then you have to roll each damage separately, otherwise wounds will 'spill over' in the case of multiple wound models.

Yeah so you roll to hit with weapon, roll a D6 for first hit, apply wounds, then roll next D6, apply wounds so on.

This is the least desirable solution for me. No-one wants to have to roll damage one at a time, but we need to know if you can roll them all together and who then gets to decide in which order it is applied. It's still in the dark as far as I can see on how the details of the mechanic will actually work.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

With transports being able to charge to soak overwatch you may take them as mobile walls that your guys run behind instead of getting inside...

Harkens back to 2nd ed, where the primary role of the rhino was to drive around ramming enemy vehicles, rather than to transport troops...

I now want to make little powerfist "bumpers" for the front of my tanks so they can punch things they ram into...

That said, depending on how things work both the mobile cover (a method I was fond of during 5th with both CSM and Repentia) and riding inside could be useful.

Plus may see exceptions given to specific vehicles or armies. Too many questions left unanswered.

Like, can I take any Imperial transport in an Imperial army list, or do they need to share a certain level of keyword?

Because if I can my Sisters just gained Land Raiders for their Repentia...

I'm certain that they could be taken, but undoubtably what can be carried inside them will be keyword limited. I.e. "This model can transport up to 10 models with the 'astartes' keyword"

You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

 insaniak wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
What is confusing here sorry? Attacker rolls to hit and wound on the weapon against the squad of his choice.
Defender then chooses who in that squad takes the wound, though has to start with the wounded model.

The attacker has to declare all targets from weapons within in squad prior to start shooting though.(Ie 6 bolters against that squad, multi-melta against that tank etc)

But if you hit with 3 weapons that can cause multiple damage each, then you have to roll each damage separately, otherwise wounds will 'spill over' in the case of multiple wound models.

Yeah so you roll to hit with weapon, roll a D6 for first hit, apply wounds, then roll next D6, apply wounds so on.

Unless the weapon does more than a single D6 damage, there's no particular reason to roll them separately, just to apply them separately. You could still roll them all together.

This is an area where we need more info. Say you hit a squad with 5 models that have 4 wounds each with 3 d6 damage shots and roll a 1 a 2 and a 4. If you roll them all together and the defender applies the damage then you just overkill 1 of the 5 models by 3. If the attacker applies the damage then one model dieds and the next has 1 wound left.

So basically if you don't roll the dice separately or have some other way assigning damage to models you end up with weird situations sometimes.

 mmzero252 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Thought: I hope non-walker vehicles still don't lock into combat, because otherwise you could charge 5 rhinos into 5 shooty units and gum them up to either stay locked or fall back and surrender shooting.

The only way this could happen is if it were to be surrounded.
The only way a super heavy walker could be locked into combat seems to be surrounding them to the point they can't walk away over the sheer amount of enemies.

That isn't even close to what I said?

Okay imagine a guard gunline.

Now imagine a marine player has five rhinos, all of which are currently empty.

If the marine player can charge those five rhinos into five different units and have them all be locked in combat, they'll need to stay there or fall back, either way losing a turn of shooting.

That is a devastating impact if it's possible.

One thing I do wonder is if they've got rid of any concept of "bulky". Doubt they'd want to put that rule equivalent on every current bulky model, so we may see the glory of 10 man Termie squads in Land Raiders!

 Azreal13 wrote:
You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

It's not quite as simple as that in practice and we need to know a little more. The Tyranid player has 3 Tyranid Warriors (4 wounds each) with one on a single wound remaining.

I shoot the squad with 2 lascannon shots doing 6 and 1 damage.

Does it kill 2 Tyranid Warriors, or just kill one and put a single wound on the other? (I.e. In which order are the 6 and 1 damage applied, and who gets to choose, or do we have to roll damage one at a time?).

ERJAK wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
What is confusing here sorry? Attacker rolls to hit and wound on the weapon against the squad of his choice.
Defender then chooses who in that squad takes the wound, though has to start with the wounded model.

The attacker has to declare all targets from weapons within in squad prior to start shooting though.(Ie 6 bolters against that squad, multi-melta against that tank etc)

But if you hit with 3 weapons that can cause multiple damage each, then you have to roll each damage separately, otherwise wounds will 'spill over' in the case of multiple wound models.

Yeah so you roll to hit with weapon, roll a D6 for first hit, apply wounds, then roll next D6, apply wounds so on.

Unless the weapon does more than a single D6 damage, there's no particular reason to roll them separately, just to apply them separately. You could still roll them all together.

This is an area where we need more info. Say you hit a squad with 5 models that have 4 wounds each with 3 d6 damage shots and roll a 1 a 2 and a 4. If you roll them all together and the defender applies the damage then you just overkill 1 of the 5 models by 3. If the attacker applies the damage then one model dieds and the next has 1 wound left.

So basically if you don't roll the dice separately or have some other way assigning damage to models you end up with weird situations sometimes.

We just don't know yet. No use really in everyone arguing about it now tbh.

changemod wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Thought: I hope non-walker vehicles still don't lock into combat, because otherwise you could charge 5 rhinos into 5 shooty units and gum them up to either stay locked or fall back and surrender shooting.

The only way this could happen is if it were to be surrounded.
The only way a super heavy walker could be locked into combat seems to be surrounding them to the point they can't walk away over the sheer amount of enemies.

That isn't even close to what I said?

Okay imagine a guard gunline.

Now imagine a marine player has five rhinos, all of which are currently empty.

If the marine player can charge those five rhinos into five different units and have them all be locked in combat, they'll need to stay there or fall back, either way losing a turn of shooting.

That is a devastating impact if it's possible.

A few players in my local group have picked on this as a flaw, or at least a feature that will define the style of play at tournaments. Of course we've yet to see points, terrian rules or if the rules/dataslates reveal a standard counter to such an opening move.

 Azreal13 wrote:
You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

This is what I've gotten from everything as well. Battle Cannon, D6 shots so up to 6 models removed depending on roll.

What the issue seems to be is people not agreeing on who decides what order multiple multi-wound unsaved shots should be resolved in... but only when it comes to models that have greater than 2 but less than 6 wounds. Which seems to be Tyranids and not much else (if you're really worrying about removing multiple Russ's with a Las-Dev squad then you're going to have had to be very lucky with your rolls).

This seems to be my take on it, see if it makes sense to you: 3 Lascannons, no saves into Warriors.
Select Warrior that's taking the wounds, roll shot 1, apply wounds/remove model as needed. Repeat for shots 2 & 3. It may add all of 20-30 seconds to your turn. Woo, you don't play Deathclock in this game so 30s is negligible.

 Bottle wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

It's not quite as simple as that in practice and we need to know a little more. The Tyranid player has 3 Tyranid Warriors (4 wounds each) with one on a single wound remaining.

I shoot the squad with 2 lascannon shots doing 6 and 1 damage.

Does it kill 2 Tyranid Warriors, or just kill one and put a single wound on the other? (I.e. In which order are the 6 and 1 damage applied, and who gets to choose, or do we have to roll damage one at a time?).

It's too clunky to do anything other than total the damage and apply it, and we know from (I think) the Battle Cannon article that you can't inflict more casualties than you inflict hits, so in your example 1W guy bites it, another guy is killed and then we've removed the maximum number of casualties, so further wounds are lost.

Probably another reason not to use anti tank on less optimal targets.

 insaniak wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
What is confusing here sorry? Attacker rolls to hit and wound on the weapon against the squad of his choice.
Defender then chooses who in that squad takes the wound, though has to start with the wounded model.

The attacker has to declare all targets from weapons within in squad prior to start shooting though.(Ie 6 bolters against that squad, multi-melta against that tank etc)

But if you hit with 3 weapons that can cause multiple damage each, then you have to roll each damage separately, otherwise wounds will 'spill over' in the case of multiple wound models.

Yeah so you roll to hit with weapon, roll a D6 for first hit, apply wounds, then roll next D6, apply wounds so on.

Unless the weapon does more than a single D6 damage, there's no particular reason to roll them separately, just to apply them separately. You could still roll them all together.

It does make a difference though, if you roll a 6, a 1 and a 3 out of three d6s, you would apply the 1 and 3 first, then the 6 especially if the target died after only 2 out of the 6 wounds. Where as rolling them separately, being forced to take the 6 first, then the 3 next could kill a target, meaning you wound a different target after that.
I guess this part is still unknown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are not arguing MaxT, its discussion based on known rules.

 Bottle wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

It's not quite as simple as that in practice and we need to know a little more. The Tyranid player has 3 Tyranid Warriors (4 wounds each) with one on a single wound remaining.

I shoot the squad with 2 lascannon shots doing 6 and 1 damage.

Does it kill 2 Tyranid Warriors, or just kill one and put a single wound on the other? (I.e. In which order are the 6 and 1 damage applied, and who gets to choose, or do we have to roll damage one at a time?).

Though perhaps a little inefficient, I think the only fair way to allocate multi damage wounds to multi wound models would be in the order the damage results are rolled, 1 at a time. Hopefully nobody will be getting ridiculous quantities of high damage shots from a single unit...

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

It's not quite as simple as that in practice and we need to know a little more. The Tyranid player has 3 Tyranid Warriors (4 wounds each) with one on a single wound remaining.

I shoot the squad with 2 lascannon shots doing 6 and 1 damage.

Does it kill 2 Tyranid Warriors, or just kill one and put a single wound on the other? (I.e. In which order are the 6 and 1 damage applied, and who gets to choose, or do we have to roll damage one at a time?).

It's too clunky to do anything other than total the damage and apply it, and we know from (I think) the Battle Cannon article that you can't inflict more casualties than you inflict hits, so in your example 1W guy bites it, another guy is killed and then we've removed the maximum number of casualties, so further wounds are lost.

Probably another reason not to use anti tank on less optimal targets.

This seem to me the more fast, elegant and reasonable approach... I expect GW to do this. Please GW, do it like this

changemod wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Thought: I hope non-walker vehicles still don't lock into combat, because otherwise you could charge 5 rhinos into 5 shooty units and gum them up to either stay locked or fall back and surrender shooting.

The only way this could happen is if it were to be surrounded.
The only way a super heavy walker could be locked into combat seems to be surrounding them to the point they can't walk away over the sheer amount of enemies.

That isn't even close to what I said?

Okay imagine a guard gunline.

Now imagine a marine player has five rhinos, all of which are currently empty.

If the marine player can charge those five rhinos into five different units and have them all be locked in combat, they'll need to stay there or fall back, either way losing a turn of shooting.

That is a devastating impact if it's possible.

As far as they've stated so far, anything that's charged is locked into combat. You can even multicharge and just get close to lock further units into combat. gak you can even pile in and get MORE. Everything can retreat but at a penalty. The only exception is imperial knights and the tau stuff with "fly" so far.

MarkNorfolk wrote:


A few players in my local group have picked on this as a flaw, or at least a feature that will define the style of play at tournaments. Of course we've yet to see points, terrian rules or if the rules/dataslates reveal a standard counter to such an opening move.

I very much doubt that vehicles will cause models they assault to have to forgo shooting in order to retreat away. Vehicles don't lock models into combat now,and it would obviously be a bad thing to add that effect in now.

If for some reason they did over look that, I also expect it to be corrected very quickly. Your friends would get one tournament of giggles max I think

MarkNorfolk wrote:


Now imagine a marine player has five rhinos, all of which are currently empty.

If the marine player can charge those five rhinos into five different units and have them all be locked in combat, they'll need to stay there or fall back, either way losing a turn of shooting.

That is a devastating impact if it's possible.

This is awesome. Imagine Rhinos being driven down the throats of a organized gunline, breaking morale and causing chaos. Exactly what a tank shock should be!

MarkNorfolk wrote:

changemod wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Thought: I hope non-walker vehicles still don't lock into combat, because otherwise you could charge 5 rhinos into 5 shooty units and gum them up to either stay locked or fall back and surrender shooting.

The only way this could happen is if it were to be surrounded.
The only way a super heavy walker could be locked into combat seems to be surrounding them to the point they can't walk away over the sheer amount of enemies.

That isn't even close to what I said?

Okay imagine a guard gunline.

Now imagine a marine player has five rhinos, all of which are currently empty.

If the marine player can charge those five rhinos into five different units and have them all be locked in combat, they'll need to stay there or fall back, either way losing a turn of shooting.

That is a devastating impact if it's possible.

A few players in my local group have picked on this as a flaw, or at least a feature that will define the style of play at tournaments. Of course we've yet to see points, terrian rules or if the rules/dataslates reveal a standard counter to such an opening move.

Can you imagine how staggeringly frustrating that would be though? Getting stun-locked across your gunline by largely harmless transports?

changemod wrote:


Can you imagine how staggeringly frustrating that would be though? Getting stun-locked across your gunline by largely harmless transports?

Compared to how staggeringly useless tank-shock used to be in older editions?

I'm no expert in tank warfare, but it seems intuitive that tanks should be able to break regiments of infantry.

 Galas wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

It's not quite as simple as that in practice and we need to know a little more. The Tyranid player has 3 Tyranid Warriors (4 wounds each) with one on a single wound remaining.

I shoot the squad with 2 lascannon shots doing 6 and 1 damage.

Does it kill 2 Tyranid Warriors, or just kill one and put a single wound on the other? (I.e. In which order are the 6 and 1 damage applied, and who gets to choose, or do we have to roll damage one at a time?).

It's too clunky to do anything other than total the damage and apply it, and we know from (I think) the Battle Cannon article that you can't inflict more casualties than you inflict hits, so in your example 1W guy bites it, another guy is killed and then we've removed the maximum number of casualties, so further wounds are lost.

Probably another reason not to use anti tank on less optimal targets.

This seem to me the more fast, elegant and reasonable approach... I expect GW to do this. Please GW, do it like this

I've got no basis for this other than my own opinion, of course, but given that we already know it's possible to generate more wounds with an attack than can be applied to the target (so there's precedent for ignoring wounds inflicted) this strikes me as the closest way to the stated aims of the rule set to deal with the issue.

 rollawaythestone wrote:

changemod wrote:


Can you imagine how staggeringly frustrating that would be though? Getting stun-locked across your gunline by largely harmless transports?

Compared to how staggeringly useless tank-shock used to be in older editions?

I'm 100% enthused by the idea of tank shock doing actual damage, but I reiterate my point on frustration if it stun-locks units.

Can you sincerely say you'd enjoy a game where that tactic is spammed on you, cheap transports invalidating large chunks of your army entirely?

 Galas wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
You cannot lose more models than hits inflicted.

Therefore roll to hit, wound, save and damage. Apply wounds until you've applied all wounds or have removed models = to number of hits inflicted. Any remains wounds are overkill and just mean the models are extra dead.

It's not quite as simple as that in practice and we need to know a little more. The Tyranid player has 3 Tyranid Warriors (4 wounds each) with one on a single wound remaining.

I shoot the squad with 2 lascannon shots doing 6 and 1 damage.

Does it kill 2 Tyranid Warriors, or just kill one and put a single wound on the other? (I.e. In which order are the 6 and 1 damage applied, and who gets to choose, or do we have to roll damage one at a time?).

It's too clunky to do anything other than total the damage and apply it, and we know from (I think) the Battle Cannon article that you can't inflict more casualties than you inflict hits, so in your example 1W guy bites it, another guy is killed and then we've removed the maximum number of casualties, so further wounds are lost.

Probably another reason not to use anti tank on less optimal targets.

This seem to me the more fast, elegant and reasonable approach... I expect GW to do this. Please GW, do it like this

I also agree this is the most elegant solution and I am in favour of rules with fast resolution.

The only problem this one leads to is the terminator example mentioned above where 3 shots of 5,4 and 1 damage a piece kill 3 terminators despite the 1 damage shot not being enough - so this would mean wounds spill over within a single round of shooting which goes against GW saying that wounds won't spill over.

I think my preferred method would be the attacker deciding the order the damage is applied and the defender then allocating it. It would keep the system fast but not allow any wounds to spill over.

One would expect a gunline to have at least a few anti-tank weapons to blow up those transports before they are withing charge range.

 davou wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

I very much doubt that vehicles will cause models they assault to have to forgo shooting in order to retreat away. Vehicles don't lock models into combat now,and it would obviously be a bad thing to add that effect in now.

I would reconsider that doubt, there is nothing to indicate that the mechanic will work any differently for vehicles, especially by comparing current mechanics.

changemod wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

changemod wrote:


Can you imagine how staggeringly frustrating that would be though? Getting stun-locked across your gunline by largely harmless transports?

Compared to how staggeringly useless tank-shock used to be in older editions?

I'm 100% enthused by the idea of tank shock doing actual damage, but I reiterate my point on frustration if it stun-locks units.

Can you sincerely say you'd enjoy a game where that tactic is spammed on you, cheap transports invalidating large chunks of your army entirely?

It might and should be effective at stun-locking infantry. But, those tanks will take some serious wounds in return most likely. Everything wounds on a 6+, and things like grenades will likely be effective. I think this tactic will likely be balanced in that you will only be able to do it for a turn without losing some tanks. It's too early to speculate right now.

 Bottle wrote:


I also agree this is the most elegant solution and I am in favour of rules with fast resolution.

The only problem this one leads to is the terminator example mentioned above where 3 shots of 5,4 and 1 damage a piece kill 3 terminators despite the 1 damage shot not being enough - so this would mean wounds spill over within a single round of shooting which goes against GW saying that wounds won't spill over.

I think my preferred method would be the attacker deciding the order the damage is applied and the defender then allocating it. It would keep the system fast but not allow any wounds to spill over.

Or even just blanket say "allocate the highest wound first, then descending number of wounds from there"

but this is just speculating of course.

 Rippy wrote:

I would reconsider that doubt, there is nothing to indicate that the mechanic will work any differently for vehicles, especially by comparing current mechanics.

I'll maintain my doubt and reserve the right to eat crow when the rules drop

If spamming stun lock with fast transports was a viable tactic of breaking the game, dont you think the people who run LVO would have caught it and gak all over it to the rules team?