My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves

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**The Green one**

Have been lurking here and must say first that although I love miniwargaming I have unsubed because of this. What they have done to support BTP after all this is just disgusting.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:
whitedragon wrote:
Is it time to add BTP to the same wall of shame as Redstarone?

BTP is making RSO look like a noob.

Sorry but who is Redstarone and what did he do?

**Boggy Man**

curran12 wrote:
I'd believe that not given the way MWG has handled this situation. Matt is giving the full appearance of dismissing tenebre and his issues and doing everything they can to help BTP whitewash the event.

Yeah, I don't really care for Matt's spin either. I just hope Dave doesn't come back from leave and find the company screwed up. Matt should have really kept his mouth shut; I don't think there's a solid position MWG could take on this that wouldn't wind up screwing them over.

**curran12**

MWG's best choice on this whole situation was silence. However, Matt has put themselves into an increasingly indefensible position, and he continues to see a growing discontent not as a genuine problem amongst the community, but as agitators.

**DarkTraveler777**

The Green one wrote:
Have been lurking here and must say first that although I love miniwargaming I have unsubed because of this. What they have done to support BTP after all this is just disgusting.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:
whitedragon wrote:
Is it time to add BTP to the same wall of shame as Redstarone?

BTP is making RSO look like a noob.

Sorry but who is Redstarone and what did he do?

Redstarone, aka Daniel Mandelbaum has a very colorful history within our community. The following links will catch you up:

http://www.bartertown.com/trading/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=198121

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/548621.page

**MadMuzza**

whitedragon wrote:
Is it time to add BTP to the same wall of shame as Redstarone?

Whats that?

Edit: Nevermind

**Mario**

tenebre how does the repaint work in regard to your army being evidence of an initial badly done job? If the army gets repainted there is no more direct evidence (just the videos and photos (if you have made some)). Has that been handled by your lawyer (or whatever is going on behind the scenes)?

**hotsauceman1**

I cant wait to see them repainted. After holding those things in my hand and seeing them with my own two eyes, they need some care.

**tenebre**

Mario wrote:
tenebre how does the repaint work in regard to your army being evidence of an initial badly done job? If the army gets repainted there is no more direct evidence (just the videos and photos (if you have made some)). Has that been handled by your lawyer (or whatever is going on behind the scenes)?

yes its all taken care of

**Grey Templar**

Boggy Man wrote:
curran12 wrote:
Jeez, sharing client emails now?

Good thing it is just an "isolated case" innit, MWG?

If I'm not mistaken, BTP advertises on MWG, which mean literally any criticism of them might be grounds for breach of contract. I rather like MWG, so I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt at least. After closing shop I'm sure they don't have the operating budget to be burning bridges with sponsors right now. Kind of a rock and a crud place.

I wouldn't hold it against them for not criticizing BTP. I wouldn't criticize someone if they were advertising on my site.

I hold white knighting for BTP against them. The correct choice would have been to just keep quite about BTP. Not come out and say "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain(who only knows how to drybrush)"

**Azazelx**

M0ff3l wrote:

Im sorry for breaking my vow, but its hard when people talk to me like this.

First of all: I can hold out a blank paper on youtube and say im reading verbatim from it and then make gak up. Also I can read verbatim and only read the parts that benefactor me. As my long post said Im not saying the OP made his story up, but the lack of proof and the lack of requested proof are very dissapointing to me.

"shawns account" is just the projects@bluetablepainting.com email. When I inquired about my quote some other employee (whose name i will not post) answered using that mail, but my mailing software displayed it as an email from shawn gately.

I mailed them a full list of what needed to be painted + what levels i wanted. They responded with an excell document where you can modify the levels and the shipping etc and the prices will automatically updated, pretty nifty actually. I dont know if the mail was actually automated, it might just have been copy pasted. It was in a different font than the other emails, so it could be either. Also they just have set prices for models (presumably depending on base size etc) depending on the level. After that you tell them what colors etc you want.

also @some other above posts: My post LITTERALY said I didnt think the OP was making this up. So no I dont need anymor evidence. Honestly I just wanted to see his master instructions to see if mine were similar or if his was even more detailed than mine. so I could update it and send it back to BTP if that was the case.

Come on mate. Start your BTP thread. We'd like to see all correspondence between yourself and BTP, both from the start and ongoing as they happen. We also need to see your master instructions, quoted prices, photos of your unpainted figures, noted on the conversions that you mentioned, tracking numbers for your stuff that's been sent off to BTP. We're looking for proof that you are indeed engaging in using their services. You've offered no evidence at all of offering BTP your custom, or indeed - of doing anything but challenging tenebre, while more than 10% of the entirety of your posts on Dakka have been in this thread challenging tenebre and others. Put your money where your mouth is, man up and start your own BTP thread with all of the info, sans your real name and address.

After all, anyone can pretend they're going to hire BTP and make gak up. Your lack of any kind of proof that you are indeed engaging their services as a client is very disappointing to me.

**BewareOfTom**

I'm pretty sure we can move on from what M0ff3l said, I mean your quoting him from 3 pages ago >.>

**Azazelx**

Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

**M0ff3l**

Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?

**Azmoodeus**

curran12 wrote:
MWG's best choice on this whole situation was silence. However, Matt has put themselves into an increasingly indefensible position, and he continues to see a growing discontent not as a genuine problem amongst the community, but as agitators.

It might've been the best option to just be silent but he was asked a question and he choose to answer it rather than ignore it. He said himself that they have had commisions done by BTP and they turned out good so why say otherwise?

**MeanGreenStompa**

Hey Hey Blue Table Fans!

**Anfauglir**

Spoiler:

Oh god, genuine lols. I think it's the way you hear Gately's voice so, so clearly in your head when you read the post.

**Steelmage99**

Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

1. I am on tenebre's side.
2. I think tenebre was slighted
3. I think BTP has handled tenebre's commission beyond poorly
4. I think BTP has handled the aftermath exceedingly bad.

Having said that.....

I am a sceptic at heart....
I too would prefer (not in any way demand, mind) to compare the various issues and facts, and draw my own conclusions.
It annoyed me to no end that the BTP video describing the "paint levels" of BTP was removed before I captured it (I had only skimmed it and compared it to the work I remembered seeing done in tenebre's first video).
I would have preferred to do some in-depth side-by-side comparisons. If nothing else this would/could show beyond a reasonable doubt that BTP failed to live up to their own standards.

Please, note that the conclusions I tentatively came to, was that tenebre was wronged, and that BTP had not fulfilled their end of the contract

Also, I too would like to see the actual correspondence between tenebre and BTP regarding the commission itself (strictly to satisfy my own curiosity).
I do not in any way expect to ever see those. Not because tenebre is being deceitful or shady, but because it would serve him better to keep that stuff private (and I would strongly advise him to do so from a legal standpoint).

Yes, maybe M0ff3l worded it poorly (in the context of the mood of this thread).
But the underlying message is certainly a rational one. We should all strive to move away from he-said-she-said, and dispassionately look at the facts presented to us.
The personal testimony of tenebre is, I am afraid to say, of lesser value (as is those of BTP) when compared to what was actually written down.
There is a reason why multi-million dollar contracts between big corporations are hundreds of pages long.

So, what am I saying here?

Well, here is what I am NOT saying.
I am not saying anything certain about culpability in this particular case. I am not addressing anything beyond promoting critical and rational thinking.

Should anybody think that I am saying anything beyond that.....that is on their heads.

...

**SlaveToDorkness**

Quick! Flame him into oblivion!

lol

**Steelmage99**

SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Quick! Flame him into oblivion!

lol

*Dons fire-proof suit*

**RiTides**

What video are you referring to, Steelmage, as both of tenebre's videos are still up?

Honestly, the repaint by the new company should speak volumes more than anything else. Would love to see a review / video of that when this is done

**Steelmage99**

RiTides wrote:
What video are you referring to, Steelmage, as both of tenebre's videos are still up?

Honestly, the repaint by the new company should speak volumes more than anything else. Would love to see a review / video of that when this is done

I was referring to a specific video by BTP that described their various paint-levels with a lot of pictures showing examples of what each level looked like. It was removed rather quickly.

I have edited my post for clarity.

Here we go.
It was on page 5 of this thread in a post by Ouze.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/618082.page#7277641

The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0GeqNN_BY8, but has been turned to Private.

...

**tenebre**

RiTides wrote:
What video are you referring to, Steelmage, as both of tenebre's videos are still up?

Honestly, the repaint by the new company should speak volumes more than anything else. Would love to see a review / video of that when this is done

I could like to point out... by special agreement the redo job is being done with the original instruction sheet and pictures (for legal reasons). Nothing changed at all . So yes this should speak volumes.
I have seen test images....

i promise i will post a video soon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:
Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

1. I am on tenebre's side.
2. I think tenebre was slighted
3. I think BTP has handled tenebre's commission beyond poorly
4. I think BTP has handled the aftermath exceedingly bad.

Having said that.....

I am a sceptic at heart....
I too would prefer (not in any way demand, mind) to compare the various issues and facts, and draw my own conclusions.
It annoyed me to no end that the BTP video describing the "paint levels" of BTP was removed before I captured it (I had only skimmed it and compared it to the work I remembered seeing done in tenebre's first video).
I would have preferred to do some in-depth side-by-side comparisons. If nothing else this would/could show beyond a reasonable doubt that BTP failed to live up to their own standards.

Please, note that the conclusions I tentatively came to, was that tenebre was wronged, and that BTP had not fulfilled their end of the contract

Also, I too would like to see the actual correspondence between tenebre and BTP regarding the commission itself (strictly to satisfy my own curiosity).
I do not in any way expect to ever see those. Not because tenebre is being deceitful or shady, but because it would serve him better to keep that stuff private (and I would strongly advise him to do so from a legal standpoint).

Yes, maybe M0ff3l worded it poorly (in the context of the mood of this thread).
But the underlying message is certainly a rational one. We should all strive to move away from he-said-she-said, and dispassionately look at the facts presented to us.
The personal testimony of tenebre is, I am afraid to say, of lesser value (as is those of BTP) when compared to what was actually written down.
There is a reason why multi-million dollar contracts between big corporations are hundreds of pages long.

So, what am I saying here?

Well, here is what I am NOT saying.
I am not saying anything certain about culpability in this particular case. I am not addressing anything beyond promoting critical and rational thinking.

Should anybody think that I am saying anything beyond that.....that is on their heads.

...

I get some skepticism. but i am just a regular dude with NOTHING to gain. Even had to bail on our fall/winter campaign without my army. I don't sell anything nor do i have any competition. had the job been god I would have promoted the hell out of it. Warhammer is my hobby/love and thats it. I can NOT post the original documents at this time. When i am allowed to, I gladly will.

**Flippa**

Tenebre, can't wait... So happy for you getting this sorted!!

**Steelmage99**

tenebre wrote:
.....the redo job is being done with the original instruction sheet and pictures (for legal reasons). Nothing changed at all.....

I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.

The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).

Comparing the two results and saying something along the lines of; "look what two different companies produced with the same instructions at X price. BTP are poop-heads" is not a justified rational statement in that situation.

Again, please note that I am tentatively on tenebre's side in regard to this issue. I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tenebre wrote:

I get some skepticism. but i am just a regular dude with NOTHING to gain. Even had to bail on our fall/winter campaign without my army. I don't sell anything nor do i have any competition. had the job been god I would have promoted the hell out of it. Warhammer is my hobby/love and thats it. I can NOT post the original documents at this time. When i am allowed to, I gladly will.

I can totally imagine the frustration you must be feeling. I sympathize with you, and I am very understanding of the fact that you can't (and shouldn't) post the original document.

Like I said in my post;

I do not in any way expect to ever see those. Not because tenebre is being deceitful or shady, but because it would serve him better to keep that stuff private (and I would strongly advise him to do so from a legal standpoint)

**winterdyne**

Steelmage99 wrote:
tenebre wrote:
.....the redo job is being done with the original instruction sheet and pictures (for legal reasons). Nothing changed at all.....

I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.

The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).

Comparing the two results and saying something along the lines of; "look what two different companies produced with the same instructions at X price. BTP are poop-heads" is not a justified rational statement in that situation.

Again, please note that I am tentatively on tenebre's side in regard to this issue. I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part

Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.

This said, additional communication is the first and in my opinion most critical part of even quoting for a job. Not doing it is a critical error.

**Steelmage99**

winterdyne wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:
tenebre wrote:
.....the redo job is being done with the original instruction sheet and pictures (for legal reasons). Nothing changed at all.....

I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.

The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).

Comparing the two results and saying something along the lines of; "look what two different companies produced with the same instructions at X price. BTP are poop-heads" is not a justified rational statement in that situation.

Again, please note that I am tentatively on tenebre's side in regard to this issue. I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part

Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.

It most certainly will not. If any further and deviant work done is based on the information provided in addition to the original spec, it is no longer a fair comparison of results.

This said, additional communication is the first and in my opinion most critical part of even quoting for a job. Not doing it is a critical error.

I agree. Like I stated very clearly in my post I am of the conviction that BTP handled the commission very poorly. Communication is key.

**winterdyne**

I'd say it's fair enough to be honest; the brief hasn't changed and further information was available to BTP if they'd bothered to actually talk to the client. The acquisition of information is part of the project process (the first part). That BTP didn't bother (by their own protocol) is entirely their problem, not the client's.

**Steelmage99**

winterdyne wrote:
I'd say it's fair enough to be honest; the brief hasn't changed and further information was available to BTP if they'd bothered to actually talk to the client. The acquisition of information is part of the project process (the first part). That BTP didn't bother (by their own protocol) is entirely their problem, not the client's.

Again, I agree with most things you just said. BTP has handled the entire situation atrociously.

That does not make a comparison between the two results any more fair.
No matter the reasons, the new company has received more information, better information and more specific information that BTP did (for whatever reason).
A comparison of the results cannot be done with any kind of intellectual honesty as to how well the results conforms with the clients wishes.

Do we agree that the new painting company has received more information than BTP?

**tenebre**

winterdyne wrote:
I'd say it's fair enough to be honest; the brief hasn't changed and further information was available to BTP if they'd bothered to actually talk to the client. The acquisition of information is part of the project process (the first part). That BTP didn't bother (by their own protocol) is entirely their problem, not the client's.

Also talking with the client shouldnt change a painters decision to pick out details like - jewelry, eyes, mouths, horns, nails, armor, covering primer with paint etc etc etc

**Anfauglir**

Steelmage99 wrote:
I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.

The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).

Yes, "far more communication"... something which BTP could and should have had for themselves at the very beginning. Their first and greatest shortfall in this whole botched mess exempts any notion of BTP's right to a fair comparison. The fact that they've done a "this-is-how-NOT-to-do-this-commission" guide for all to see is neither tenebre's or the new studio's problem.

I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part

Only your fallaciousness is misguided, because I'm almost 100% certain (and he can jump in and correct me on this if I'm wrong) that tenebre is stating that the "nothing changed at all" part pertains to the master instructions and reference pictures, not the commission process undertaken to turn those instructions into a successful end result by either company.

Or, in short, this;

winterdyne wrote:
Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.

This said, additional communication is the first and in my opinion most critical part of even quoting for a job. Not doing it is a critical error.

...and this;

winterdyne wrote:
I'd say it's fair enough to be honest; the brief hasn't changed and further information was available to BTP if they'd bothered to actually talk to the client. The acquisition of information is part of the project process (the first part). That BTP didn't bother (by their own protocol) is entirely their problem, not the client's.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:
That does not make a comparison between the two results any more fair.

And again, BTP forfeited their right to fair treatment of any kind over the outcome to this commission.

No matter the reasons, the new company has received more information, better information and more specific information that BTP did (for whatever reason).
A comparison of the results cannot be done with any kind of intellectual honesty as to how well the results conforms with the clients wishes.

Yes, yes matter the reasons. Matter the reasons very much. Okay, first you talk about fairness, now you're talking about "honesty", really? After all the crap BTP have pulled over this (and seemingly a lot of other projects over the years)? Really?

Okay then.