Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Over the weekend I was in the first 40k tournament at the necronomicon in Orlando, Florida. Traditionally, the necro is a big fantasy indy gt and this year had 75 or 76 fantasy players and only 32 40k players. It followed the normal GT configuration of 2 days and 5 games.

This was my army list- Mech Tau

Hq

Shas'el- plasma rifle, missile pod , hw-mt ,targetting array-97

shas'el-same-97

Elites

2 fireknives-124

fireknife team leader with targetting array-77

firekife-62

Troops

10 firewarriors-100

devil fish-multi-tacker, array, decoy-100

10 firewarriors-100

devil fish-same-100

10 firewarriors-100

devilfish-same-100

Fast

piranha-fusion, decoy, array-75

piranha-same-75

piranha-same-75

Heavy

Hammerhead-rail, sms, mt, decoy, target, d-pod-185

hammerhead-same-185

hammerhead-same-185

All battle reports are from memory only, so I'll go over all noteworty events in the games.

Game 1

Mission: Victory points, escalation, table quarters (though the scenario objectives usually were not even worth going after except for the +1 battle points for getting them) each table quarter was worth 25(!) victory points.

In the event of a victorious slaughter, the winner would get a extra 100 points... Yay...

Opponent: Imperial guard- 3 basilisks, 2 hell hounds, 4 sentinels, 3 lascannon anti-tank squad, 3 autocannon fire support squad, 3 infantry squads with missile launchers and grenade launchers, 2 lascannon infantry squads, ratling squads, hardend vet 3 plasma squad, heroic senior officer with useless stuff and a psyker with a force weapon and honorifica.

Game Highlights: 3 out of 4 sentinels exploded. I completely ignored half of his army and annihilated the other half. Not much to say about the game. Half an un-optimized guard army vs an optimized mech tau army.

I lost: 2 piranhas, 7 firewarriors

He lost: 2 basilisks, auto cannon squad, 3 out 5 infantry squads, hardend vets, 1 platoon command squad, both hell hounds immobilized

25 points for win-2 points for battle points. Gave my opponent full soft scores.

 

Game 2

mission victory points, bonus victory points for controlling terrain features

Opponent: Necrons- Monolith, res/veil lord, destroyer lord, 3 medium sized warrior squads, immortal squad, 2 4man destroyer squads, tomb spider

Highlights: Monolith railed on turn 2, terrible wbb rolls all game, 3 destroyers fail wbb roll and the remaining one fails last man test and flees table, 2 drones charge a warrior squad to tie them up then procede to kill a necron then the necrons fail ld10 test and are chased down by drones, on turn 6 he phases out.

I lost: 1 devil fish, 1 fire warrior squad, 1 man crisis team, 1 piranha

he lost: army

25 points for win- 2 battle points

 

Game 3

Mission-victory points, special counter worth 150 points

Opponent- nightlords: Terminator lord, defiler, tankhunter auto cannon havoks, heavy bolter havoks, 2 tank hunter las/plas squads, 2 oblits, infiltrating double plasma squad, 2 rhino squads, chaos marine squad with heavy bolter. Note all squad sizes were very small, hence why he had so many.

Highlights: He had 3+ cover saves due to night lords vet skills so His primary fire base was next to impossible to kill, 2 survivors of a fire warrior squad who took casualties from a devilfish crash and heavy bolter fire kill 2 chaos marines with 2 pulse rifle shots, very tough game. I took the objective.

I lost: 2 hammer heads, 3 firewarrior squads, 1 devil fish, 2 piranhas

He lost: both rhino squads, 1 rhino, obliterators, infiltrate squad, 1las/plas squad, half the auto cannon squad, half and expensive terminator lord.

25 points for win-2 battle points.

Ended day one with a 3-0-0 record, full battle points, full soft scores.

I'll post day 2 shortly.

he lost: army

Great quote, hope you have day 2 posted soon.

I would have gone to the Necro, but I was too busy winning the CoD tournament...

Game 4

Mission-victory points, bonus points for center.

Opponent- undivided chaos- bloodthirster, nurgle stature lord, 2 plague bearer squads, 10 furies, 8 bloodletters, defiler, obliterator, 8 khorne bikes, big infiltrate chosen squad.

*warning* for fellow competetive players, your probably looking at his list and thinking he doesn't stand a chance. Read on if you dare..

Highlights: nothing I could do to win. Every single time, he rolled chains of 6's to hit, 6's to glance, 6's to kill a tank. Not to mention a 6 to go first and a 6 to summon the bloodthirster and something like 12/22  5+ saves on his furies, 3/4 5+' on his obliterator, and 3/3 5+'s from rail guns on his daemon prince.

I lost: Everything but a single hammerhead

He lost: half bikes, half chosen, half bloodletters, oblit, 1 wound on thirster, 1 wound on prince.

0 for the loss-0 battle points

 

Game 5

Mission-victory points, bonus for assassinating enemy general

Opponent-13th company- wolf lord on bike, big bike squad, rune priest, long fangs with las cannons, 1 foot squad with double plasma, 1 foot squad with double melta, wolfen squad with wolf priest.

Highlights: wolf lord survived 7 hits that would instant kill him before dying on turn 5 from a rail, a big mistake on my part allowed the wolfen a 6" massacre move followed by a 6" animal rage to get in a charge all over my army that hit 4 back armors and my shas'el general.

I lost: 1 hammerhead, 30 firewarriors, all crisis suits, all piranhas, 1 devil fish

He lost: Everything but half wulfen squad and wolf priest.

I had 570 points left alive, he had 354 points left in a tournament with a 200 point draw range, so I won by 16 points.

25 for win-1 battle point

 

I found out that the same chaos army that beat me also beat a 7 raider Dark eldar army, a 3 monolith necron army, and my friend's mechanized eldar army.

In the game against my friend's eldar army, he rolled even better then against me.

 

In the end I got Second best overall.

The chaos army won best overall.

You should have called him on that. Honestly, if I say that many 6's consistantly rolled over 2 turns, that is highly suspicious. I would have made some excuse to leave the table for the moment and talked to the judges about it. Something along the lines of "I don't want to cause a fuss, but I am starting to get suspicous of my opponents dice...". You should have won, honestly, and I think you where cheated.

I agree with Mahu, the frequency of 5+ on those dice sounds very suspicious. I can see maybe one game where he rolls that well, but with two games where you know he had insanely good rolling, and two others where he'd be hard pressed to win without rolling that well...

Yea, my eldar friend did talk to judges, but the conversation amounted to little.

Was he using Privateer Press dice (The ones with the 6's marked as a logo). If so, those are indeed weighted dice.

Darrian

No, they weren't privateer press dice. They were medium sized and I'm inclined to say they were silver colored.

Are you saying that all privateer press dice are weighted? I guess it's good advertising, I mean, every time you roll a six and get past an enemies defense or armor in warmachine/hoards, you see the companie's logo.

Wether or not I actually was cheated, it was still a very fun tournament and the guy I played in round 4 was such a nice guy that It never passed my mind until I heard all the facts from multiple people. I will be going back next year regardless. Any one anywhere would be hard pressed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that some one is cheating with weighted dice, especially if the report of cheating takes place after a game. What makes it even more frustrating though is that he was from a well reknown club, that I wont name in an effot to maintain the integrity of said club, and that the tournament had no prize other then a trophy and honor. I'll always give some one the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes statistical and circumstantial evidence is just too strong...

Nice job Me_Person. Yeah that whole debacle was weird, but you are correct. It is extremely hard to prove, and if that's what that person needs to do for a stinking trophy, that is sad...but I digress. I didn't get to see the final points standings, but I went 3-1-1 and won Best Army with my Ultramarines. Sorry about the Hijacked post....hehe Capt K

How much to you feel your Piranhas contributed to your 4 wins?

Well, as capt k would certainly say, the missions were almost purely victory points and the objective grabbing ability of the piranhas was almost completely useless due to such pointless objetives. Having said that, the piranhas did distract fire and killed a few things. In game 3, a piranha took the objective that won me the game, even though the objective was only worth 150 points. I think they contributed an average amount to the wins. Enough that I still plan on including piranhas in future tournament lists, such as a rougue trader in two weeks.

Thank you for that. We're looking at including them for our Adepticon Team but with the value of the other Fast slot options in the Tau list, we're reluctant to give up one of our 5 fast slots for a single Piranha. Your insight seems to give us ammunition to include one at least.

I would certainly recomend using at least one in any sized tau army. Even in my mech tau they fill a hole in the army that I find hard to fill with anything else. In any objective based scenario they can be invaluable. In pure victory point games, they can (with a fusion blaster) kill things that even the most mobile tau army cannot (basilisks, whirlwinds, defilers, ect...). Additionally, if you plan on giving it a fusion blaster (recomended) then a targeting array is almost a must as bs3 melta guns have a tendency to miss when you really need them to hit.

Congrats.

Not wanting to continue on a bad tangent, but i fail to see how that chaos list had a cats chance in hell of beating mech eldar!! Maybe the fella just had one of those days and has swiftly retired the dice he used!!

The statistics of anything in his army killing any thing in a mech eldar army is so low that it becomes very hard to believe that almost the entire eldar army was dead. One game of statistical improbabilities is believable, but two or three across two days, plus another game against a 3 monolith necron army (due to teleporting out of combat and ap3 ordanace) were luck would also be one of the few chances of winning. The other game he said he lost 1000 points of his army to his opponents first turn shooting, killing his chosen and bikes for sure, makes that game also a statistical nightmare. So 5 games of such rolling makes it way too much to believe every thing was legit.

It's a dead horse were beating though. The results are final and if anything was illegit, then nothing could be done anyway. If he did cheat, then he's a *donkey* for cheating, meaning he would also suck at the game as he had to cheat to win. If he didn't cheat then congrats on the win and wow, with that much luck, I'd go gamble on everything possible. You know, like the lottery, cards, Gw stock, ect... But I wouldn't go outside in a storm, getting hit by lightening is also a statistical improbability.

In my mind you where the Champion of that Tournament.

you were the Champion of that Tournament.

One year from now, I will be.

Don't rag on the guy too much... I for one am renown at my club for my die rolling, as well as the army lists... and most of my dice are monopoly ones..... oh... and I've also been hit by lightning, lol

Loaded dice are pretty easy to see. They will wobble strangely just beofre stopping. It looks like nothing you have seen before, especially from people (like us) who spend a lot of time rolling 6-sided dice.

This is a dice game and no matter how good you make your list, there is still an element of chance involved with the dice.

Based purely on my game I would never have thought he cheated. But after my friend reporting wobling dice, and hearing all the 'luck' he had across 2 days (5 games of statistical improbability), I was suspicous myself.

That's a bold statement to make to be champion next year...hehe. Hopefully you don't match up with any of the Sci-Fi crew. Matching up with Ernie in the 5th round made me feel bad, since one of us was going to knock the other out of a possible contention for the prize. Besides our reserve rolls sucking balls, it is no surprise that we drew that game. We were both trying to make it quick an painless for each other, but it dragged out into a game of cat and mouse. Capt K

Heh. I played against that 3 Monolith army...he told me about the insane luck that guy had that game. Interesting. I never made the connection until now. Speaking of that game, that was one tough match up. But since I had a speeder that refused to die, I came out on top. It was the best game I played all weekend. The guy was a great, fun opponent and we both laughed at each others misfortunes. He got my vote for favorite opponent. Capt K

That's a bold statement to make to be champion next year.

You know me and my dangerous overconfidence.

My favorite opponent was the 13th company in the fifth round, the one were I had 216 more points then him in a 200 point draw range tournament.

I personally know the guy you are making the claims about loaded dice and cheating.

Frankly the very idea is ridiculous. Me_person lost. The other guy may or may not have rolled well.

But we will never know unless he recorded every single die roll. So obviously your claims are baseless.

And you jokers, yes Mahu and CaptK I'm looking right at you, who witnessed nothing, have no idea what the hell was rolled, and then want to make wild claims about cheating and loaded dice, should be ashamed of yourselves. It's rare you see someone be a bad sport in a game they weren't even in, but mission accomplished, you did it.

And Me_person there's always something you could have done to win. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that you were beat by dice. I haven't played you, but I've played him, and Pete's as good a player as I am, and I'm willing to bet that had a whole lot more to do with you losing than his supposedly loaded dice.

 

Well, as I said, based purely on my game, the thought would never have even begun to form. I only became suspicous when my friend told me of wobling dice. And yes, he was a very very good player, and it was an very enjoyable game and he was a great guy the whole game. Me saying there was nothing to do to win was an overstatement, I was merely trying to portray the fact that regardless of what I did, he came back and killed twice as much as I had. Regardless of how great of a player he is, the game certainly was decided by incredible dice rolls. Even assuming he rolled as good as he did to kill stuff, if he had rolled even remotely close to normal for his saves, then a large porting of his army would have been dead early in the game. Things like 66% of his 5+ saves instead of satistical 33%.

There was a good chance for me to completely turn the game from me getting massacred to me perhaps doing the massacrering (well mabey just get a minor victory). Turn three, I had lost 2 devil fish, 3 firewarrior squads, most of my crisis suits, a hammerhead and a piranha, he had lost all but 1 bike, all but 2 chosen (locked in combat with drones), 5 bloodletters, obliterator, and his bloodthirster was wounded, and the plague bearers had not come in. His daemon prince was in LoS of one of my hammerheads. If the prince died, then I would have killed most of what was left of his army in one shot, if he lived, then I was in for more hurting. The railgun hit, wouned, and he made his save. The drones killed the chosen which meant the prince was the last icon. After that what was left of my army died. I gave him full soft scores.

If as your saying, the idea of him cheating, is rediculous, then I'm glad. I'd much rather know that I got beat fairly, albeit due to incredible luck, then have the idea that I was perhaps cheated.

Don't forget that often people only remember the strange stuff rather than something that's common. I've had strings of good rolls and bad rolls but at the end my opponent usually only remember the good ones.

Posted By mauleed on 07/20/2006 6:35 AM

I personally know the guy you are making the claims about loaded dice and cheating.

Frankly the very idea is ridiculous. Me_person lost. The other guy may or may not have rolled well.

But we will never know unless he recorded every single die roll. So obviously your claims are baseless.

And you jokers, yes Mahu and CaptK I'm looking right at you, who witnessed nothing, have no idea what the hell was rolled, and then want to make wild claims about cheating and loaded dice, should be ashamed of yourselves. It's rare you see someone be a bad sport in a game they weren't even in, but mission accomplished, you did it.

And Me_person there's always something you could have done to win. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that you were beat by dice. I haven't played you, but I've played him, and Pete's as good a player as I am, and I'm willing to bet that had a whole lot more to do with you losing than his supposedly loaded dice.

 

Mauleed, don't be stupid. I didn't make any wild claim that he cheated. I only said that it was highly suspicious and Me_person should have called him on that, and at the very least let him defend himself.

Trust me, some days the dice is good to you. Ask Me-Person, he consistantly makes his 5+ Inv. saves when playing his Lysander-wing and it is highly annoying, but we know there is nothing suspicious with his dice, we put it up to good luck.

Now I personally didn't play in the Necronomicon (though I did get a game in late Saturday at one of the tables). CaptK did but he didn't play the player in question. However, when I hear about players from my local group, players that I know to be fair and honest, question a particular players dice, I question them myself. Also I heard reports from other players that played him and his rather good luck.

So that means one of two things, either he was just so incredible blessed with his dice rolling or he cheated. As the tournament is over now and the results are final, we will never know for sure.

I am sure he is a great guy as nobody had any hard feelings over playing him. And I would have no problem playing him in any competitive game in the future. I am not trying to condemn the man, I am mearly saying that this all sounds highly suspicious.

But oh well, I am glad everyone had a great time at the Necronomicon. And there is nothing keeping me from attending next year.

he consistantly makes his 5+ Inv. saves when playing his Lysander-wing

Yea, but then I roll 4 ones and lose an entire terminator squad to blast masters...

However, when I hear about players from my local group, players that I know to be fair and honest, question a particular players dice, I question them myself.

Then you're a tool. There really isn't much more to it than that.

You're claiming that someone used loaded dice, or, worst, that the might have had loaded dice (so that you can say you only insinuated he's a cheater instead of having the balls to actually say it), with absolutely zero proof.

Complete sleezeball.

Can all parties involved please post their real names so that if I ever play any of you, and grind you into dust, and then you claim I had loaded my dice, we'll all know that's just an orlando 40k player thing and ignore you.