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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

Chopstick wrote:
The Acastus weapons stat are completely garbage made up and does not scale accordingly to the HH/8th ed rule. Range is too long, missile pod had more range, is stronger and does more shot than intended, blast is not big enough to be considered a blast weapon in AT.


Agreed, it's 40k version is nowhere near as powerful as the AT version. They're basically just really big lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Yeah but the multiple maniple thing has taken on a whole new dimension with custom legio rules from ryza, it's not so much multiple maniples being the prob, it's that they can be different legios that makes things a bit nuts with ryza, in addition to running 4 total acastus/asterius


Not sure I follow. How is running multiple legios any different than it has been from the very beginning? Mostly you're weakening your ability to focus and giving the other side stratagem points unless the game is over 3k points or something and you really need that flexibility for a specific plan. Also, how does that relate to the Acastii in any way?


You can maximize both legios's maniples to an insane degree given the wargear and traits and still take 4 acastus, something that's already game breaking.


Those are completely separate things, I don't get why you brought the legios up in this instance. Ryza legios also aren't that wacky. Of course you can focus more on any single aspect of the game with them, but not to any degree I'd call insane.


Because you can do both, create 2 custom legios, one for each maniple, in addition to running 4 acastus.




Back to the styrix, disappointed that voidbraker isn't per shot but per weapon, so volkite doesn't seem that great. The siege claw though is interesting because it's 2 attacks per claw, so I could see trying dual claw. Graviton doesn't seem worth it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/22 11:02:22


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Warwickshire

Voidbreaker applies for each time the weapon hits?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 zedmeister wrote:
Voidbreaker applies for each time the weapon hits?


Each volkite that causes at least a hit causes one additional hit. I thought it was per shot initially. The styrix can take two volkites, still seems sorta meh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/22 11:32:37


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
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Warwickshire

You get 4 shots so each of those that hit gets and additional voidbreaker hit. Not too shabby. They’ll not do anywhere near as much work on unshielded targets though
   
Made in ca
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Ottawa Ontario Canada

 zedmeister wrote:
You get 4 shots so each of those that hit gets and additional voidbreaker hit. Not too shabby. They’ll not do anywhere near as much work on unshielded targets though


It's conditional on if the weapon hits, it's not per hit. If the weapon hits, voidbraker adds x hits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/22 11:48:07


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
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Warwickshire

Not how I read it. I read it for each hit, in a similar way to the rapid trait
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





JWBS wrote:
I'm referring specifically to the claim that pre-nerf Acastus were okay, something that he apparently still believes, and you apparently don't, but idk. I'd also argue that the change to the numbers of Acastus allowable was not implemented because it was the 'right' nerf, but because it was the easiest nerf (it was basically a veto on Acastus first adopted by TOs, since they can't reasonably be expected to modify points or profiles, and then reasonably be expected to diffuse this info throughout the community w/o friction). I'd argue that this nerf was embraced by the AT team due to laziness because, frankly, it's a massively anti-fun change that makes no sense for players or even when considering fluff (Three Warlord titans, Avatars incarnate of the Omnissiah in your army? Sure. No problem. Four ACASTUS KNIGHTS you say? Are you insane man? Absolutely not!). The Acastus limit sucks, personally I don't think this can be reasonably argued. It only exists, after all, because they cocked up the balance on them.


The banner size needs further elaboration. This was a much larger knight than the Cerastus or Questoris, packing considerable firepower and armour. So much so that the Warhound was a closer comparison. Consider the following...

Questoris: 3-6 knights.
Cerastus: 2-4 knights.
Acastus: 1-4 knights?

...notice that the maximum is double the minimum for the Questoris and Cerastus, and I'm sure those whom have the new resin knight will confirm that the Mechanicum knights are also in banners of 2-4 knights. Given that the Acastus is the apex knight and almost as tanky as the Warhound, a banner of 1-2 makes more sense. The weapons on the Acastus need little help from the coordinated strike order, and even just two knights will provide a bonus of +2 strength and a total of 14 structure points. Speak of the devil, lets take a look at the total structure points with maximum knights pre-FAQ...

Questoris: 24 points.
Cerastus: 20 points.
Acastus: 28 points?

...while the drop in structure points is greater with the Acastus at the new post-FAQ maximum of 14 structure points, the Questoris and Cerastus share the same toughness chart( direct, devastating & critical )while the Acastus has higher values. I would compare with the Mechanicum knights once again, but sadly do not have their terminal to compare and know little of its details.

My point is this; the three main knights get smaller in banner size the higher their scale goes, and being larger have access to more powerful weaponary and enjoy higher structure points. The smaller knights need a larger banner size as they rely more on the coordinated strike order to beef up the strength of their weaker weapons, so that they can damage the void shields and structure of a titan...

...and clearly the Acastus needs no help on the firepower front if it can cause harm to even a Warlord with just a single knight!

So being fair to the design team, they were fixing the banner size to properly scale the Acastus, which was probably a case of the printer's being sent an outdated photoshop file. Looking into the crystal ball, I'd say that the Armiger( if released ) will be in a banner of 4-8 knights, and with even weaker weapons than the Questoris.


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Ottawa Ontario Canada

The range and the 360 arc is also a pretty nasty combination, and it's secondary weapon is barrage so not a lot of hiding from them given the 360 arc like a reaver's carapace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 zedmeister wrote:
Not how I read it. I read it for each hit, in a similar way to the rapid trait


Word for word "If a voidbraker WEAPON hits a target with active void shields, the target's controlling player must make a number of additional saves as shown by the number in brackets after the trait." in this case (1) so what it says is provided a weapon with the voidbraker trait hits at least once, it causes 1 additional save if the void shields are active. It's not per shot, but you're required to hit at least once against a target with active void shields to cause 1 more save. Now that's per weapon, so two volkites would each benefit once provided each one hit at least once againt active voidshields,

Hey at least dual claw on either one seems cool, lots of attacks.



I'm wondering how the atropos will work, can't see there being more than 2 in a banner, figuerd it be just one due to rarity. Given it's weapon may have the vortex trait.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/11/22 19:50:21


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
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Warwickshire

 Crablezworth wrote:

Word for word "If a voidbraker WEAPON hits a target with active void shields, the target's controlling player must make a number of additional saves as shown by the number in brackets after the trait." in this case (1) so what it says is provided a weapon with the voidbraker trait hits at least once, it causes 1 additional save if the void shields are active. It's not per shot, but you're required to hit at least once against a target with active void shields to cause 1 more save. Now that's per weapon, so two volkites would each benefit once provided each one hit at least once againt active voidshields,


See, I read that the other way. With four shots, if you hit twice, that weapon has hit twice triggering the effect twice. The community article also hints towards it as well:

These have the Voidbreaker (1) trait, meaning that enemy Titans must take an additional shield save every time this weapon hits


Also, having the Volkite weapon cause damage per additional hit fits in with how it works in 30k.
   
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 Crablezworth wrote:




I'm wondering how the atropos will work, can't see there being more than 2 in a banner, figuerd it be just one due to rarity. Given it's weapon may have the vortex trait.



Never had the pleasure and ain't got a clue about this chap. What does he do when he's at home, then?

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 Crablezworth wrote:


But orks don't fight in gargant whaags, ork battles don't consist of a handful of gargants or stompas and nothing else.


No, they don't. But there's nothing that says that the ork mobz on the battlefield can't be armed largely with bolters, and thus completely unable to hurt the titans and knights that are battling the gargants. And if they can't influence the battle, then there's no need to include them.

IIRC (it's been a while since I saw it), there are one or two mentions of ground troops on the battlefield in the middle of a game of AT. Either the description of one of the strategic asset markers, or one of the strategy cards I believe makes mention of ground troops. So troops can be on the ground. But only the heavy weapon units are going to have anything strong enough to annoy a titan.


As for Epic -

I would recommend not even thinking about it until we start to see super-heavy tanks. Something like a Shadowsword that's got a weapon powerful enough to hurt a titan could be added to the game easily, and will probably appear before any full-scale - or even psuedo - Epic release.

If and when Eldar get a release, I hope at least one model retains the centauroid configuration that we saw in the old Bright Stallion Eldar knight.
   
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Gotta say its a shame we didn't get a boxset this Christmas. Maybe something new in January?

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SamusDrake wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:




I'm wondering how the atropos will work, can't see there being more than 2 in a banner, figuerd it be just one due to rarity. Given it's weapon may have the vortex trait.



Never had the pleasure and ain't got a clue about this chap. What does he do when he's at home, then?


Left arm is a graviton singularity cannon and a good candidate for a vortex weapon (with extremely short range) in AT
Right arm is a lascutter; it’s actually a melee weapon of considerable potency, basically an industrial cutting laser of the sort the Mechanicus uses to manufacture knights and Titans in the first place, but on a combat chassis.
Both weapons have variable yield but AT abstracts a lot of that. Not sure how it would shake out but overall it should be quite capable of mincing other Knights but very restricted in range. Which of course is compensated for by the Cerastus class chassis.

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Cheers for that, Mr_Rose.

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SamusDrake wrote:
Gotta say its a shame we didn't get a boxset this Christmas. Maybe something new in January?


Engine Kill is due this week coming, so if there is anything in the pipeline we'd likely see it then.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 zedmeister wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:

Word for word "If a voidbraker WEAPON hits a target with active void shields, the target's controlling player must make a number of additional saves as shown by the number in brackets after the trait." in this case (1) so what it says is provided a weapon with the voidbraker trait hits at least once, it causes 1 additional save if the void shields are active. It's not per shot, but you're required to hit at least once against a target with active void shields to cause 1 more save. Now that's per weapon, so two volkites would each benefit once provided each one hit at least once againt active voidshields,


See, I read that the other way. With four shots, if you hit twice, that weapon has hit twice triggering the effect twice. The community article also hints towards it as well:

These have the Voidbreaker (1) trait, meaning that enemy Titans must take an additional shield save every time this weapon hits


Also, having the Volkite weapon cause damage per additional hit fits in with how it works in 30k.


RAW it's 1 additional save if you hit, not per hit.

"These have the Voidbreaker (1) trait, meaning that enemy Titans must take an additional shield save every time this weapon hits" Meaning exactly that, if the weapon causes a hit, the titan must make one additional save. It's not indicating per hit, merely that you must cause a hit to benefit from the enemy having to take 1 additonal save. It's entirely possible we see voidbraker weapons where's voidbraker 2 or voidbraker 3. X indicated if anthing even further that it doesn't function like rapid.

Rule as intended it's possible they meant per shot, rules as written it doesn't say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote:
Cheers for that, Mr_Rose.


The fluff was they're very rare and used often to combat specifically xenos. In 30k it basically can leave a 5 inch blast that ends up moving around, so hoping it gets vortex.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/23 01:59:01


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
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SamusDrake wrote:

Never had the pleasure and ain't got a clue about this chap. What does he do when he's at home, then?


Atrapos lascutter is a melee weapon also double up as a very short range gun (3" in AT)

Graviton singularity cannon is a lesser, unreliable vortex weapon, the range is the same as Thermal cannon, so not "extremely short", it's 12"

The Titans also come with Macro-extinction Protocols, which allow it to target other titans and knights easier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/23 07:26:42


 
   
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 MajorWesJanson wrote:
It would have been a much nicer change to simply drop blast from the weapons instead of hard cap numbers allowed.


Yup. This.
   
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Warwickshire

 Crablezworth wrote:

RAW it's 1 additional save if you hit, not per hit.

"These have the Voidbreaker (1) trait, meaning that enemy Titans must take an additional shield save every time this weapon hits" Meaning exactly that, if the weapon causes a hit, the titan must make one additional save. It's not indicating per hit, merely that you must cause a hit to benefit from the enemy having to take 1 additonal save. It's entirely possible we see voidbraker weapons where's voidbraker 2 or voidbraker 3. X indicated if anthing even further that it doesn't function like rapid.


Again, I see it the other way. Every weapon hit triggers the effect as in every succesfull hit. I'm tempted to e-mail the Forgeworld lads, see if I get a response...
   
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 xttz wrote:
SamusDrake wrote:
Gotta say its a shame we didn't get a boxset this Christmas. Maybe something new in January?


Engine Kill is due this week coming, so if there is anything in the pipeline we'd likely see it then.


Knowing our luck it'll be to inform us of an amazing feature of the game we've been overlooking all this time....

"ENGINE KILL! GAIN THE INITIATIVE! Did you know you can roll off to see who gets to go first? Grab your dice everybody cause today we are looking at how to roll those D10s to victory!"

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Warwickshire

SamusDrake wrote:
Knowing our luck it'll be to inform us of an amazing feature of the game we've been overlooking all this time....


I'd laugh if the reveal is "Coming next year: the new Apocalypse/Rapier Class Titan"
   
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 zedmeister wrote:

I'd laugh if the reveal is "Coming next year: the new Apocalypse/Rapier Class Titan"


The way I've had to eat my words of late, I wouldn't be surprised!

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Southeastern PA, USA

Eumerin wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:


But orks don't fight in gargant whaags, ork battles don't consist of a handful of gargants or stompas and nothing else.


No, they don't. But there's nothing that says that the ork mobz on the battlefield can't be armed largely with bolters, and thus completely unable to hurt the titans and knights that are battling the gargants. And if they can't influence the battle, then there's no need to include them.

IIRC (it's been a while since I saw it), there are one or two mentions of ground troops on the battlefield in the middle of a game of AT. Either the description of one of the strategic asset markers, or one of the strategy cards I believe makes mention of ground troops. So troops can be on the ground. But only the heavy weapon units are going to have anything strong enough to annoy a titan.


Right. And let's not forget that the background is imaginary and constantly mutating to fit their business needs. It's always been that way and always will be.

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 zedmeister wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:

RAW it's 1 additional save if you hit, not per hit.

"These have the Voidbreaker (1) trait, meaning that enemy Titans must take an additional shield save every time this weapon hits" Meaning exactly that, if the weapon causes a hit, the titan must make one additional save. It's not indicating per hit, merely that you must cause a hit to benefit from the enemy having to take 1 additonal save. It's entirely possible we see voidbraker weapons where's voidbraker 2 or voidbraker 3. X indicated if anthing even further that it doesn't function like rapid.


Again, I see it the other way. Every weapon hit triggers the effect as in every succesfull hit. I'm tempted to e-mail the Forgeworld lads, see if I get a response...


You would simply be wrong. Rulebook page 39: "If a Voidbreaker weapon hits a target with active void shields, [...] a number of additonal saves as shown in brackets after the trait." It does not say "For each hit" like Rapid does, as an example. The same is said in Quake, Concussive and so on. Knights attack with a one combined weapon at a time, so until errata'd the whole Banner gets +1 out of their Voidbreaker shots. Not too impressive, really.

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Warwickshire

 Sherrypie wrote:
You would simply be wrong. Rulebook page 39: "If a Voidbreaker weapon hits a target with active void shields, [...] a number of additonal saves as shown in brackets after the trait." It does not say "For each hit" like Rapid does, as an example. The same is said in Quake, Concussive and so on. Knights attack with a one combined weapon at a time, so until errata'd the whole Banner gets +1 out of their Voidbreaker shots. Not too impressive, really.


I've stuck in a query so who knows if I get a response or not.

As you explain it, it makes the Styrix seem a bit shabby. Not sure why they didn't just go with rapid instead to bring them inline with how Volkites work in 30K (i.e. hits giving additional hits). A full banner would, on average with a 4+ BS would get 6+1 hits. Nice models, crap rules. Perhaps they're being cautious with the Knights after the Acastus debacle...

Still, nice models regardless of rules, and I'll have at most a banner of each with my Makabius lads.
   
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 zedmeister wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
You would simply be wrong. Rulebook page 39: "If a Voidbreaker weapon hits a target with active void shields, [...] a number of additonal saves as shown in brackets after the trait." It does not say "For each hit" like Rapid does, as an example. The same is said in Quake, Concussive and so on. Knights attack with a one combined weapon at a time, so until errata'd the whole Banner gets +1 out of their Voidbreaker shots. Not too impressive, really.


I've stuck in a query so who knows if I get a response or not.

As you explain it, it makes the Styrix seem a bit shabby. Not sure why they didn't just go with rapid instead to bring them inline with how Volkites work in 30K (i.e. hits giving additional hits). A full banner would, on average with a 4+ BS would get 6+1 hits. Nice models, crap rules. Perhaps they're being cautious with the Knights after the Acastus debacle...

Still, nice models regardless of rules, and I'll have at most a banner of each with my Makabius lads.


Yeah, the Acastus most likely hangs above them for some time as a reminder that certain conservatism is required with writing new units. I feel the current situation to be a misreading on the designers' part, where the thought was indeed per hit while the writing isn't. My expectation would have been a Voidbreaker X, where X is the number of said arms in the Banner, which could be an easy FAQ ruling to make them actually worthwhile additions to lists.

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Where can the full rules be found for these mechanicum knights?

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the_scotsman wrote:
Where can the full rules be found for these mechanicum knights?





If you pause at the right times you'll see the rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
 zedmeister wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:

RAW it's 1 additional save if you hit, not per hit.

"These have the Voidbreaker (1) trait, meaning that enemy Titans must take an additional shield save every time this weapon hits" Meaning exactly that, if the weapon causes a hit, the titan must make one additional save. It's not indicating per hit, merely that you must cause a hit to benefit from the enemy having to take 1 additonal save. It's entirely possible we see voidbraker weapons where's voidbraker 2 or voidbraker 3. X indicated if anthing even further that it doesn't function like rapid.


Again, I see it the other way. Every weapon hit triggers the effect as in every succesfull hit. I'm tempted to e-mail the Forgeworld lads, see if I get a response...


You would simply be wrong. Rulebook page 39: "If a Voidbreaker weapon hits a target with active void shields, [...] a number of additonal saves as shown in brackets after the trait." It does not say "For each hit" like Rapid does, as an example. The same is said in Quake, Concussive and so on. Knights attack with a one combined weapon at a time, so until errata'd the whole Banner gets +1 out of their Voidbreaker shots. Not too impressive, really.


So it's even worse than thought, dang. Guess it's all about them claws.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 zedmeister wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
You would simply be wrong. Rulebook page 39: "If a Voidbreaker weapon hits a target with active void shields, [...] a number of additonal saves as shown in brackets after the trait." It does not say "For each hit" like Rapid does, as an example. The same is said in Quake, Concussive and so on. Knights attack with a one combined weapon at a time, so until errata'd the whole Banner gets +1 out of their Voidbreaker shots. Not too impressive, really.


I've stuck in a query so who knows if I get a response or not.

As you explain it, it makes the Styrix seem a bit shabby. Not sure why they didn't just go with rapid instead to bring them inline with how Volkites work in 30K (i.e. hits giving additional hits). A full banner would, on average with a 4+ BS would get 6+1 hits. Nice models, crap rules. Perhaps they're being cautious with the Knights after the Acastus debacle...

Still, nice models regardless of rules, and I'll have at most a banner of each with my Makabius lads.


On the plus side, there's now a 140pt all cc option if you do 4 claws. The rending and amount of attacks is decent. Also nice to regen on 6's in the damage control phase. Might fit better into some lists than lancers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/23 20:17:43


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Yeah, the option for claws is an interesting one. 4 attacks per knight and one heck of a Charge isn't the worst deal if you can also run a couple of surprise Gravs in their midst to mess with your opponent's positioning for long range units to exploit. The Gravs might still be mostly for funsies, they don't really need them except to auto-Shake other knights due to Concussive.

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Don’t forget they also get to reduce the strength of incoming blast weapons as well so you can avoid a complete toasting from plasma blastguns...
   
 
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