Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here’s their news item about price increases for 2022

https://www.manticgames.com/news/2022-price-changes-and-europe-back-open-for-business/

Here’s an excerpt:
“…Just like before when we’ve been forced to change prices, I don’t want to surprise you with the increases, and I’m giving you plenty of notice so you can sneak in before the rise.

We’ll be implementing the price rises on our website and to our retail partners from August 1st – which means you’ve got a whole month to fill your boots before they creep up...”

I can see the complaints on the spears and bows being too big and silly. I don’t get complaints about the armor. The helmeted heads have a style that doesn’t work for everyone, but isn’t bad. Complaining that elite undead horsemen from a rich empire have too much bling…nope. Mantic’s detail has been shallow on the sides for their last few kits, so that’s fair enough, but the fronts and backs have been quite decent with detail.

If you want naked skeletons, there are tons of options already. If you want Tomb Kings exactly as they were, you can find them 3D printed for not too much more per mini than Mantic, cheaper if you print them yourself. You can get those cheap names skeletons and then buy 3D printed Tomb Kings shields and heads for a great price. For a fantasy undead Egyptian army that isn’t Exact copies of Tomb Kings, they’re great. The swords and shields are very fantasy, (Plastic historical versions will be available soon enough.). The armor and helmets are distinctive and fun. If they’re not for you, fine, but I don’t see these as being awful or worse than the old Tomb Kings base infantry.

I have the original Tomb Kings and the only good thing from the kit were the heads and the shields
The models were awful to build and transport and did not really fit with the rest of the line
One reason the last release of TK failed was that GW did not updated the core units

Regarding the Mantic ones, I would have liked is less cloths and enough heads without helmets for a troop
The overall look fits the theme and fluff of the EoD, and it is not something that is already out there
So any bits should add more head options or some bodies with less cloths

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Complaining that elite undead horsemen from a rich empire have too much bling…nope.

Not sure Undead Skeletons and Elite are words that go together. The plastics have more bling than the previewed mounted character, a bit of bling, sure. Bits of armour on the horses legs and head. Like I said the armour should be reduced by about 50%.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you want naked skeletons, there are tons of options already.

Didn't say I wanted naked skeletons, said 75% less fabric. Not quite the same as naked.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you want Tomb Kings exactly as they were, you can find them 3D printed for not too much more per mini than Mantic, cheaper if you print them yourself. You can get those cheap names skeletons and then buy 3D printed Tomb Kings shields and heads for a great price.

Never said I did want Tomb Kings as they were, I listed why these are god-awful. Mantic should be aware of how many skeleton kits are available on the market, because these are very poor compared to what is currently available. I just don't understand how Mantic can think it is passable to make such poor quality models (not just aesthetics, wonky weapons, soft detail, weird skulls).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
For a fantasy undead Egyptian army that isn’t Exact copies of Tomb Kings, they’re great. The swords and shields are very fantasy, (Plastic historical versions will be available soon enough.). The armor and helmets are distinctive and fun. If they’re not for you, fine, but I don’t see these as being awful or worse than the old Tomb Kings base infantry.

It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings, not exact, as that would be an infringement of GW's designs. The old kit (20 years old) has sharper detail, has weapons that don't look wonky. Compared to this new Mantic kit, which let's not forget is aiming to be a direct comparison it is arse.

I'm sure those who think Mantic can do no harm will buy them.

I'd like them better if Mantic could just get over putting Angry Eyes on all their skellies.

It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings, not exact, as that would be an infringement of GW's designs. The old kit (20 years old) has sharper detail, has weapons that don't look wonky. Compared to this new Mantic kit, which let's not forget is aiming to be a direct comparison it is arse.

I'm sure those who think Mantic can do no harm will buy them.

I have a bunch of Tomb kings skeletons, and those weapons are wonky as hell. Super thick spear hafts and gigantic spear blades.

Still agree that they knock these out of the park though

 stonehorse wrote:

It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings.

this would be a very bad business as TK do not exist any more, and legacy players want 1:1 copies of OOP models and not just something similar

Mantic started as a cheaper alternative to GW, which they still are thanks to GWs ridicules prices, but they changed this some years ago and this release simply serves Kings of War (and Ninth Age as the only other R&F game out there with similar themed undead)

if this would be a GW knock off they failed hard as the current GW theme of other Undead are the Bone Reapers

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't understand how Mantic can think it is passable to make such poor quality models (not just aesthetics, wonky weapons, soft detail, weird skulls)

one thing is that people want easier to build kits and yes that the better looking Mantic kits are also those that take more time (or skill) to build is the the 2nd main complain around the web (close behind after that not all KoW armies are available to buy from Mantic)
so solid bodies (too much armour and cloths) and wonkey weapons are there to help with that
and at least for the weapons I am no friend of the realistic/thinner weapons as they break to easy while too big is also a problem but for a gaming piece I rather have them too big than too thin (have that on too many historical kits were I need to replace all spears with copper wire to get them on the table without damage)

in general I am not a big fan of this, I rather have more complicated to build models than those large solid single body stuff like the Riftforged Orcs

 privateer4hire wrote:
Here’s their news item about price increases for 2022

https://www.manticgames.com/news/2022-price-changes-and-europe-back-open-for-business/

Here’s an excerpt:
“…Just like before when we’ve been forced to change prices, I don’t want to surprise you with the increases, and I’m giving you plenty of notice so you can sneak in before the rise.

We’ll be implementing the price rises on our website and to our retail partners from August 1st – which means you’ve got a whole month to fill your boots before they creep up...”

Thank you. I may have to make some reminder posts about getting orders in before my 10th of the month cut off for special orders on mantic.

Don't want the customer base missing out on good prices on cool miniatures before there's a price rise.

 kodos wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings.

this would be a very bad business as TK do not exist any more, and legacy players want 1:1 copies of OOP models and not just something similar

Mantic started as a cheaper alternative to GW, which they still are thanks to GWs ridicules prices, but they changed this some years ago and this release simply serves Kings of War (and Ninth Age as the only other R&F game out there with similar themed undead)

if this would be a GW knock off they failed hard as the current GW theme of other Undead are the Bone Reapers.

Tomb Kings may not exist anymore, however Empire of Dust are a Mantic version of them.
Skeleton infantry armed with shield and spear/handweapon, or Bows.
Skeleton cavalry armed with shield and spear/handweapon, or Bows.
Orge/troll sized living statues armed with large weapons.
Catapults that launch magical flaming skulls.
Etc.

They are a Mantic version of the now out of production Tomb Kings. Mantic introduced Empire of Dust when GW dropped their support for Tomb Kings, same goes for Bretonnians and Brotherhood. Yes over the years Mantic have started to make those things their own, but they are still deeply rooted to their GW predecessor.

 kodos wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't understand how Mantic can think it is passable to make such poor quality models (not just aesthetics, wonky weapons, soft detail, weird skulls)

one thing is that people want easier to build kits and yes that the better looking Mantic kits are also those that take more time (or skill) to build is the the 2nd main complain around the web (close behind after that not all KoW armies are available to buy from Mantic)
so solid bodies (too much armour and cloths) and wonkey weapons are there to help with that
and at least for the weapons I am no friend of the realistic/thinner weapons as they break to easy while too big is also a problem but for a gaming piece I rather have them too big than too thin (have that on too many historical kits were I need to replace all spears with copper wire to get them on the table without damage)

in general I am not a big fan of this, I rather have more complicated to build models than those large solid single body stuff like the Riftforged Orcs

They can make easier to assemble models that are good, I have shed loads of their hard plastic Abyssal Dwarfs. They are gorgeous models, and a better interpretation of the old GW Chaos Dwarfs they are based off. So, Mantic have shown they can make good models... just sadly they don't do

Crazy Bobby's Summer Sale is here!

Half price KoW books, discounted terrain boxes and a whole heap of UNBRANDED zombies.

Fill your boots.

https://www.manticgames.com/games/crazy-bobbys-summer-sale/

Tantum Non, Modo Non

 privateer4hire wrote:
Tantum Non, Modo Non

I'm well versed in latin and I don't recognize this phrase. Can you clarify please?

Haven't bothered with Clash of Kings before, but I see that Hardback of 2021 and digital of both 2021 and 2022 are on sale.

1) What are the practical reasons to pick these up?

2) Are there any additional campaign mechanics in them? Our group is considering a campaign.

3) Now that it's 2022, is there value in picking up 2021?

CoK 21 comes with rules for fighting in the magical planes, additional background and special characters (fluff and rules), the actual rules updates are 2 pages

CoK 22 comes with the Halfling and Riftforged Ocrs army list, a campaign and extensive rules updates

if you like reading the fluff and want more magic in the campaign, there is still value in a 1/3 priced CoK21

CoK22 adds a lot of possible army builds to the game with the changes added, it is a really good addition to the game IMO. Of course, Easyarmy will tell you 99% of what you need anyways, but I like buying the CoK additions, as they have a very good track record on improving the game

 McDougall Designs wrote:

I don't know what "a premium is", but for curiositys sake: is it over $20 USD?

It's just the way halfling boxes are packaged : 10 infantry and 5 cavalry. So if you want to make a 20 infantry regiment, you get a 10 cavalry regiment as well. You can't have one without the other.

It sucks if your intention is not to have that 10x5 ratio for infantry/cavalry in your army. And don't tell me "sell what you don't need to !"...not only Mantic Games miniatures are worthless on the market but cavalry halfling is even more worthless since everyone has way too many of them in their armies anyway. It's not even worth the price to ship the whole package to another particular anyway.

At least, it *seems* the EoD new boxes aren't packaged like this...thank goodness if this is the case, because it's a really awful sprue design decision if you ask me.

 kodos wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings.

this would be a very bad business as TK do not exist any more, and legacy players want 1:1 copies of OOP models and not just something similar

Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.

If they wanted to really make EoD new, they could have started by stopping copying Tomb Kings units as their clear main inspiration. With the previews, they showed they didn't.

I think that tells everything that making sure they look similar to Tomb Kings is still important to them...and their fanbase. Because who do you think plays EoD ? Old Tomb Kings players, that's who. Because where else can they play their "killed" army now ? The Old World project is still far from being released, after all.


About the clothes and armors, they serve two purposes to me : adding sturdiness to the plastic models (28mm skeleton limbs tend to be easy to break if there are just bones maintaining the parts) and also make a reference to the different theme of the Empire of Dust in comparison to their "classic" skeleton box. I don't mind them.

They just look like miniatures you would have done in the 2000, that's all. And I don't care about their communication about price increase "in advance" and all - they're just a smaller GW trying desperatly not to look like it.

So, MG fans will still be their fans and the others...will still look at their products and say "meh, not worth the money".

Also, their shipping fees is still not interesting if you have the sin to live in Europa. I know Brexit is not MG's fault and they do what they can...but when GW covers everything up no charge and MG still does that, in the end...GW's quality gets on top in the customer's decision for the same amount.

TBH, as I see it, MG is talking more to their UK customers first recently than anything else. There are fewer and fewer shops to bother with their products on the continent now. Because it's not worh the hassle.

Mantic Halfling Cavalry are armored battle doggos. In plastic! Considering all the fantasy companion campaigns, I think you should be able to find RPGers willing to buy them for shipping at the very least.


As for EOD, their new chariot is the “Too bad YOU…will die!!” of chariots. Check it out. Hopefully it’s priced attractively, because it’s so damn goofy I think I need it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Mantic Cavalry are armored battle doggos. In plastic! Considering all the fantasy companion campaigns, I think you should be able to find RPGers willing to buy them for shipping at the very least.

They look like classic undead horses to me. With clothes and armor, sure. Not like it doesn't exist in plastic already.

Maybe when separate boxes will be available. I don't know many RPGers taking a mega army for their campaign or needing 10+ more horsemen for a casual encounter.

I meant their halfling cavalry.

I used to have a tomb kings army for warhammer 6th, which still has an active playerbase local to me (pretty much everyone plays KoW too, it's a competitive vs. beer n pretzels split which determines which one gets attention).

Very tempted to revive the old army with the new Mantic minis, the old GW release was pretty weak, it was just a shield and head sprue added to the ancient plastic skeleton kit and some mediocre metals (assembling the metal tomb scorpion was particularly annoying).

The 8th edition kits were good, but only on sale for a brief snippet of time before the old world went boom and they shot up to £200+ on ebay.

The army never really got any good attention, it's no wonder it has been a popular choice with 3d printing. It's a popular theme, I remember Mantic saying that EoD is one of their top sellers, which explains why it is now getting 2 hard plastic kits from them.

I'm quite happy to see an old GW army get a release with usable hard plastic matching the old unit entries.

I could probably use the infantry as tomb guard, split the cavalry into light and heavy to fill core slots, add bone giant and scorpions from reaper bones and the army would pretty much be done.

Sarouan wrote:

Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.

I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.

If they wanted to really make EoD new, they could have started by stopping copying Tomb Kings units as their clear main inspiration. With the previews, they showed they didn't.

I think that tells everything that making sure they look similar to Tomb Kings is still important to them...and their fanbase. Because who do you think plays EoD ? Old Tomb Kings players, that's who. Because where else can they play their "killed" army now ? The Old World project is still far from being released, after all.

Why would they want to make EoD new? GW already did that, it's been the direction for most things since the End Times.
Mantic's direction has been to make the "Warhammer refugee" armies they included in Uncharted Empires their own while still leaving the door open to people with old Warhammer armies. So, yeah, keeping the "Undead Empire" theme is important and it has to be a dusty empire because that's what they have established.

It's a popular theme. Their old line which was mixed plactic, metal and resin sold well! That implies that there are more people than those who already have armies who want this kind of thing. Serving that demand sounds like a good idea to me. Doing so with "gaming models" rather than fancy stuff (like the .stl designers are putting out) might actually be intentional; little less competition for that.
The people who still want to play Tomb Kings are likely to go crawling back to GW when The Old World comes around and already own this, so not a great target IMO.

About the clothes and armors, they serve two purposes to me : adding sturdiness to the plastic models (28mm skeleton limbs tend to be easy to break if there are just bones maintaining the parts) and also make a reference to the different theme of the Empire of Dust in comparison to their "classic" skeleton box. I don't mind them.

I agree here.
These look like models designed to be wargamed with. Sturdy, should take basic paint techniques well and hopefully not too expensive (compared to some other companies at least). Made for the same kind of gamer that liked their dwarfs, but a tad nicer and more modern (just a tad though).
Leave the fancy works of sculpture that are not actually great for being pushed around on a wargaming table to GW and the .stl designers.

...I don't care about their communication about price increase "in advance" and all - they're just a smaller GW trying desperatly not to look like it.

Disagree form me. The similarity is that they are both wargaming companies that sell rules and miniatures.
They clearly have different business philosophies/priorities.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.

I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Yes and no. Armies from the 2nd Ed Uncharted Empires book were basically a reaction to finding out the Old World was coming to an end to ensure every player could switch systems regardless of army.

the 2nd Edi Uncharted Empire book was there to catch Warhammer Refugees, and the lists written with the Wahammer model range in mind

but this is also a reason why the army lists of the former UE factions changed much more than the other ones

and looking at the current EoD list and the 8th Edition TK list, there are not many similarities left outside the basic historical Egyptian theme (would have been tricky to make that list without Chariots, Infantry with Spears and basic Cavalry)

things changed a lot over time for both Mantic and GW and both are slowly going away from the old Warhammer

PS:
new pictures:

Chariots


Monolith


Idol of Shobik

Idol pretty cool

Shame that all bigger minis are resin.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.

I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.

...have you looked at them?

 McDougall Designs wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
Tantum Non, Modo Non

I'm well versed in latin and I don't recognize this phrase. Can you clarify please?

It’s what happens when you ask a probably dubious online translator the word “almost” and pick two results.

It’s a reference to “almost” being a common dakka comment about many of their releases over the years.

I love, love, love how the chariot tells a story:

“Master, I have great news! You gave me 20’peasants and a chariot you commanded me to enhorse. I sacrificed ten peasants to raise the undead steed. But, master! In my devotion and shrewdness I remembered that I could double the undead steed’s strength with the lifeblood of only 5 peasants! With that savings, I can resurrect my brother-in-law, a skilled archer! It is for him, I have saddled the chariot horse! He is a valued fighter, yet I dare not stand him next to me in the chariot lest he still hold a grudge for my drowning him in the latrine.”

Uncanny, Bob: that was exactly the same story I got from that sculpt, word-for-word. (Well, except for the word "latrine." Since Mantic is British, my mind read that detail as "loo.")

A picture really is worth a thousand words.

Well those chariots are a big step up from the elf ones, but it still feels like so many of the pieces are a bit off and don't come together right. The awkward rider posing, the excessive cloth on the reigns, the horse having a saddle, the melted-goop neck armor... I do like the frame of the chariot itself though, that looks pretty cool.

Resin stuff from mantic is meaningless in my eyes, because a 3D printed alternatives are cheaper and at least as good if not better.

 kodos wrote:
and looking at the current EoD list and the 8th Edition TK list, there are not many similarities left outside the basic historical Egyptian theme (would have been tricky to make that list without Chariots, Infantry with Spears and basic Cavalry)

Every unit save heavy cav is a pretty direct representation of a Tomb Kings unit...