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CSM: is for the marines. I agree that the lack of other wargear is kinda crappy.. but what did you expect?? We still have dex's floating around from 5-11 years ago. GW wont put that much effort into anything... that's the problem.

Dont blame the writers, blame the guidelines they are following.... GW is not going to stop.. I hate to say this, but if you hate it so bad, then stop playing...

5th ed is on it's way, so is codex SM and soon after that the SW... so let's wait to see how they make those dex's the greatest and watch as everyone runs to the hobby shop to blow money on the new marines and their bright new toys..

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This is a great point and one that I don't really see brought up a whole lot. Why is it that when a post-heresy space marine chapter goes renegade they all of a sudden sprout an armoury of pre-heresy equipment? Where are all the reaper autocannons coming from? I'm actually glad kind of glad that this is never explained since I can't imagine their explanation would be any good and they've already taken a big enough dump on the fluff with this new codex without pulling more crap out of their asses.

I was going to answer myself and say that Renegades ought to be represented by C: SM anyway.

It's up to the player to say how much of an army list he wants to use - sometimes it's hard not to give in to certain choices, true, but you only have to play Night Lords if you want to. Nobody's saying you can't have a Daemon Prince in with your dark blue with lightning Chaos Space Marines (sorry I had to come back to this as it's a prime example in my case).

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Sure, the designers talk a good game about focusing on renegades, but this codex actually does quite a piss-poor job of it. Just because it's bad at representing the Chaos legions doesn't mean it's good at representing Chaos renegades. In fact the new codex is pretty much bad at representing anything except Black Legion. On the other hand, if this is Codex: Black Legion what the hell are the Thousand Sons doing in it? Sure a Black Legion force might have a few squads of Thousand Sons allied to it but aren't we supposed to use Apocalypse if we want allies? Oh wait, I forgot - they wrote some new crap fluff about how the Black Legion now has Thousand Sons and Death Guard and Emperor's Children and World Eaters in it.

Fair point. I think it was a mistake to try to label it as Renegade too in order to say that it doesn't only represent one Legion (IMO it also serves for the others except the more, hem, specific legions). Though I thought that it isn't inconceivable to have troops from one Legion mixed up with another. Especially considering how many Black Crusades there were. I think that the only CSM that can't be explained "outside" as belonging to another Legion are the Thousand Sons because of their obvious fluff. The others I see as the glorified champions standing above the icon-carrying squads who haven't proven themselves worthy of the favours of their patron god.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And look at the obvious concerted effort they've made to mix up groups of CSM from different legions/chapters in the pictures. We see Black Legion with World Eaters; Red Corsairs with Death Guard, The Purged, and Black Legion; Black Legion with Word Bearers and Night Lords. It's almost as if they were consciously trying to "break up" the legions while proclaiming that from now on Chaos forces are supposed to be a mish-mash of units painted in every color of the rainbow. Lame.

Another fair point. I think that the only Marine army where this would look good would be a Crusading army with squads from different Chapters banding together - at least in 2nd edition it was not frowned upon

Though I think that they did that just so they could show all the miniatures and I don't think they were trying to get people to paint armies like that... I think that most of the Legions would fight together only on equal terms - i.e. each half an army, in case the other part turns it's weapons in their direction. That or in really small squads, like a Sorcerer leading his troops to accompany or supervise a Lord on a mission.

But maybe that's just my imagination that's a bit too fertile

O.T. Anyway, I enjoyed reading your post too, it was a nice and welcome departure from what I had gotten used to from you. which, odd as it may sound, is intended as a compliment. Embarrassing as it may be for me.

*ahem*

What? It's not as if I'm commenting on how sexy his avatar is, or something. There's nothing sexy in a Gary Morley miniature

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
And look at the obvious concerted effort they've made to mix up groups of CSM from different legions/chapters in the pictures. We see Black Legion with World Eaters; Red Corsairs with Death Guard, The Purged, and Black Legion; Black Legion with Word Bearers and Night Lords. It's almost as if they were consciously trying to "break up" the legions while proclaiming that from now on Chaos forces are supposed to be a mish-mash of units painted in every color of the rainbow. Lame.

/grab key ring out of pocket
/hold key ring in the air and shake vigorously
/put king ring back in pocket

Sorry, I have to call shenannigans on this one. I have the last three Chaos codexes on my desk as I'm typing this. They ALL have pictures and art that are "mish-mash" armies. Slaanesh demons and marines with Khornate. Death Guard with Black Legion. Thousand Sons with Slaanesh and Black Legion. The 3rd edition book doesn't seem to have ANY pictures or art or army lists that I see that represent only one legion, except Black Legion (pictures that have a tad of EVERYthing...). I was reading an old White Dwarf yesterday, somewhere in the 250s iirc, while sitting on the *ahem* library *ahem*, and there was an army list with Ahriman leading it and NO thousand sons.

The main representation of CSM has ALWAY been the Black Legion approach - a hefty mix of a little bit of everything with alot of cheese tossed in. The latest book changes nothing along the lines of how Chaos is generally represented - except the degree of fromundazation of your army list.

For those complaining about how their "fluff was stolen" etc, or the book being boring...
There is absolutely NO reason you can't play any of the legions in the new C:CSM. OMG, so you have to use a little thought and modeling skill to represent something you read in a book once. Since when has that been the death of anyone's hobby? Maybe you need to adapt to new organizational charts, IW players, or learn to deal without your infiltrating cultists summoning 4 demon pacts on turn 2 with immediately assault your enemies battle line Alpha Legion players. With the exception of Alpha Legion cultists (and then I can't remember a single bit of fluff commenting on AL cultists fighting with the Legion in battle... though there may eb something obscure, somewhere), I can't think of a single piece of chaos fluff I can't represent in the new book.

We already know your ability to think of what's wrong is extremely limited, death.

That's probably why I can't even be bothered to refute your "points".

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You do it yourself as you speak.

Please expalin how the obvious nerf of demons to support a "demons" book (wait...wait...who was clamoring for that in 40K?) was seen through by the players?

Let me see...yep, still 204 boxed sets for the failed army available in the US store. /clap

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

Oh right, some bull about how the new CSM codex is awesome.

Gee, it's so good sales of ALL csm are flatlining.

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You sound like a smurf player who got his milk spilled by chaos one too many times (or indeed, every time) and I think if you, Jervis, and JohnWhang all got together with BaskinRobbins you'd deliver a whopping vanilla and call it 41 flavors.

Way to derail a thread, by the way.

Personally I can't wait for Jervis to be released, leave, be fired, made reduntant, whatever. Toss in Alessio (gee, musical instruments in 40K? holy crap what a tard idea) and I'll call it a miracle.

Stelek wrote:"demons" book (wait...wait...who was clamoring for that in 40K?)

(Raises hand. Looks around nervously. Hides.)

Way to derail a thread, by the way.

This thread was useless from the moment of its inception. Why not let it become another Chaos whinge-fest?

Personally I can't wait for Jervis to be released, leave, be fired, made reduntant, whatever. Toss in Alessio (gee, musical instruments in 40K? holy crap what a tard idea) and I'll call it a miracle.

Jervis is on my very short list of GW employees who are of any interest to me, so I have to say that I'd be disappointed if he left the company. I think he's a good game designer. I don't always agree with his choices, but I think he has a lot of good ideas.

You should get out and meet more game designers.

Grot 6 wrote:The guy is a liability to the company, but if he were being fired, a duche like oddlegg1234 would be the last one you would here it from.

I don't care if he is a nice guy, is a sweetheart to talk to, or if he can walk on water with no legs.

Jervis is a figurhead and a source of great amusement as he thrashes around in his own feces of what has become of 40K as of late.

Speaking of feces, its these type of postings that give Dakka a bad name.

yakface wrote:Jervis did not write the Chaos Space Marine codex. Jervis only provided the framework of how codices should be written, yet Phil wrote the Ork codex under the same guidelines and most people don't hate that book.

If you don't like the CSM codex you have to blame Alessio and Gav, not Jervis.

You nailed it with that one, Yak.

IMO, what we're seeing is that some members of the studio work better within their given constraints than others. Typos aside, I think the Ork codex is a good one -- flavorful, strong in gameplay and simply a good read -- and that codex was written under the same framework as Codex: CSMs.

Maybe some of the negativity to CSMs was inevitable given that they were trying to streamline a very complicated and dense army list. Some players were bound to be put off by that. On the other hand, I think it might have been better received if it gave players a new or fresh look at Chaos. Saying it has a new focus on renegades is disingenous, as you could build renegade armies perfectly well under the old codex. I think players feel that they received exactly what they had before, but less of it, and that seems like a recipe for unhappy customers no matter what you're selling.

Stelek wrote:We already know your ability to think of what's wrong is extremely limited, death.

That's probably why I can't even be bothered to refute your "points".

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You do it yourself as you speak.

Please expalin how the obvious nerf of demons to support a "demons" book (wait...wait...who was clamoring for that in 40K?) was seen through by the players?

Let me see...yep, still 204 boxed sets for the failed army available in the US store. /clap

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

Oh right, some bull about how the new CSM codex is awesome.

Gee, it's so good sales of ALL csm are flatlining.

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You sound like a smurf player who got his milk spilled by chaos one too many times (or indeed, every time) and I think if you, Jervis, and JohnWhang all got together with BaskinRobbins you'd deliver a whopping vanilla and call it 41 flavors.

Way to derail a thread, by the way.

Personally I can't wait for Jervis to be released, leave, be fired, made reduntant, whatever. Toss in Alessio (gee, musical instruments in 40K? holy crap what a tard idea) and I'll call it a miracle.

This may sound awkward, but if you're not going to bother refuting his posts, why post in such an aggressive manner? He likes it, explained why, even if I didn't like that I'd respect it. That and your thing with mocking and insulting. This isn't the Jerry Springer show, the only one leaving a bad image here is you. If you presented your arguments in a concise manner, I might've been able to make sense out of what you're saying.

Yeah, way to derail a thread

And how long has it been since the Codex came out? You make it sound as if 204 boxed sets are that much.

I replied in kind.

My image? lol

Most new Codices sell out to presales, oh and hey welcome to 40k sales...or the lack thereof.

No, you didn't.

It's not that I'm bothered, but I've seen better criticism from you. C'mon, even Abby posted something with head 'n' feet, you could make the effort

Seriously now, I'm going to start a Word Bearers army and I'm probably taking *gasp* Possessed and use the new Bloodletters as generic daemons.
There are no rules for a Dark Apostle, nor do I think they are needed. The only thing I am disappointed with are the Chosen, who should've been much, much more.

Anyway.

The point of this thread was long ago settled. We have spun far off topic, that and the completely uncalled for personal attacks warrant a closing of the thread.