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sourclams wrote:
First off, I am just about always in favor of more options, not fewer. More options = dynamic and good, fewer options = stagnant and bland. The wall I'm running into when I read this web project that clearly several people have put a lot of time and thought into and are taking enjoyment from, is that we may as well go whole hog and make it Codex: Imperium. I mean honestly, we've got by your own admission, three different armies in this book. What, then, would be so difficult about just adding IG and Space Marines and be done with the whole matter? If taking HQs unlocks successive options, add a Force Commander and Lord Militant, throw in a basilisk, hellhound, and Librarian, and we're basically done with the humans in 40k. That is my problem. The Inquisition has access to *everything*. In order to really do it up accurately, you just have to give it access to *everything*. And that kind of kills all the other codices. Why would I bother buying an IG and a SM codex when I can just do it all with my Inquisition codex?

This is why with our current working list with the exception of the Stormtroopers (that the inquisition maintains for its own use), landraiders (which Inquisitors have personal access to) nothing else is "borrowed" or taken from any other codices. While the specialized vehicles and options of the chamber militant come close the combinations of those are unique to those unit.

We have chosen to do a list that represent the units at the immediate authority of the Inquisition and their chamber militants; a list that only includes units that are part of the Inquisition directly and not by "induction."

sourclams wrote:
That's why I say, to avoid homogenization, sideline the stuff that already exists or is better done in the existing material. You have not, and I say this with respect, shown me that the Inquisition can be done with equal representation to the three Ordos in one codex. What you have shown me is a plug-and-play flow chart that lets me buy one book and play Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, and Imperial Guard that are somehow different because there's 'I's stamped onto their armor. Ordo Xenos is guardsmen and space marines. Ordo Malleus is space marines and better space marines. Ordo Hereticus is Sisters of Battle.

This list is suppose to supersede Codex Witchhunter and Codex Daemonhunter while incorporating what would have been a Codex Xeno-hunter. By allowing the core units common to all three we have created a list of basic units available to all Inquisitor regardless of Ordo.

They can be equally represented our list includes all currently existing units without excluding any. The only shaky assumption is that Codex Daemonhunter and Codex Witchhunter equally represent each of those Ordo forces. We then extrapolate from fluff a number of units for Ordo Xenos that put them on par with the other two pre-established works. Thats how we got what we have. Beyond that it becomes a matter of play test various lists to ensure no one configuration is over powered.
Each Chamber Militant has roughly the same number of units to choose from that is as equal as it comes.

Ordo Xenos doesn't include guardmen beyond the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers available to all Ordo's. Under our list Ordo Malleus only has access to Grey Knight chapter beyond the units available to all other Ordos. There are other things to the Ordo Hereticus than just SoB, but a majority of those are in common with othe Inquisition assets.

sourclams wrote:
And see, there's my problem. By making the Codex: Inquisition exhaustive, you're homogenizing it. In order to be exhaustive you need to have the entire Imperium in there because fundamentally, all that an Inquisitional army is is an Inquisitor + a pre-existing army. I never say to ignore the Grey Knights or the Deathwatch, rather I support minimizing their role in a new codex because, as Stelek has expounded upon, Marines have already been done. Guard have already been done and are being done again. Inquisition Leman Russes shouldn't be radically different just because there's an 'I' stamped on the side. Rather than re-do what we've already got, let's instead take the single unique element, the Sisters of Battle, and have something completely different. What I'm saying is directly relevant to this thread because it's impossible to properly represent the Inquisition in one codex without diluting it to the point of losing any elements that make the Inquisition unique. Trim the excess or go all out. Call it Codex: Adepta Sororitas or Codex: Imperium.

We have instated a system where by it is very difficult to play a list that is a homogenized Inquisitional force. You will never have access to marine or imperial guard assets not granted in the list (only Stromtrooper and Land Raiders). While a player can mix and match Ordos and Chamber militants, it is kept to a minimum by making basic chamber militant units elite FOC choices unless taken by the appropriate hero and where use of the other specialized chamber militant units requires the appropriate hero.

The Grey Knights and the Deathwatch are the primary military force of their branches of the inquisition; excluding them would be no different than trying to do a historic representation of Nazis fighting in WWII without mentioning the SS, possible but rather pointless. I know its not a perfect analogy but it makes the point of how synonymous they almost are.

This is a discussion on a comprehensive Codex: Inquisition, meant to combine all elements of the Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters while extrapolating elements for the Ordo Xenos into a single Codex to the exclusion of standard IG and SM forces. Codex: Imperium and Codex: Adeptus Sororitas discussion should be made in a new thread.

In discussion of the Ordo Xenos chamber militant contribution to the codex:

the man behind the curtain wrote:aka_mythos:

So, going back to Deathwatch for a second, what do you think they should have to expand upon the army?

As I've mentioned elsehwhere, probably in this thread, I have a full Deathwatch army...

I think what you have so far is a good army.

We have DW killteams as a base unit.

In the fluff it is the job of certain DW to stand guard over different libraries but also places where larger cthulu-esque alien threats are known to be sleeping. I imagine these units could be the the basis for the more specialized unit DW Terminators (I like the name Deathwatch Centurions but it might need work)

Marik, Deathwatch Annihilus Squad is good but needs some "umph" by ensuring appropriate options.

Other than that I think the DW should have their own unique vehicle since SoB and GK have their Excorcist and Dreadnought respectively. I don't believe DW would use dreadnoughts because the body of a fallen DW would be too valued by the loaner chapter to allow the DW to hold onto indefinitely and with only a limited number of dreadnoughts held by each chapter a chapter would not loan one out. That I think leaves the Landspeeder as the most viable platform for a DW vehicle. Akin to the close air support provided to special forces (see Black Hawk Down)

My idea for a Deathwatch Landspeeder is the Land Speeder Torrent; it has a heavy bolter in front with typhoon missile pods (both weapons with DW ammo) also the speeder would have an ability similar to that of the new Land Speeder Storm where by it can scramble enemy deepstrikes increasing the enemies deviation roles. Though some other unique ability might be better to make it more distinct, such as allowing them to deep strike.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Generally the idea behind it was to expand Special Ammunition types to include missile launchers (regular & Cyclones), and any special weapons they had (like a Plasma or Melta) would a Combi-Weapon, so they could continue to use the special bolt ammunition if they wanted to. This allows for a bit more than squads with Hellfire Heavy Bolters, and allows more modelling opportunities as well (hence my army, which was done just to do the models).

I agree this is a good and reasonable addition seeing as the Sternguard Vets have similar options.

I think the DW Terminator unit should be able to take combi-weapons for ammo access but should also have the different Terminator assault squad weapon options. I think missile ammo also helps zero in on the main DW Term. squads heavy weapon without adding a new weapon (like a heavy bolter which isn't appropriate).

I think missile launchers with special shots is a good idea though how it'd be represented is hard, like a missile launcher with a plasma missile would function just like a plasma cannon and that'd be a little wrong. A melta-missile is more reasonable but would also be hard without making the missile launcher into a missile launcher-multimelta combo. A special missile would need to be conceptualized with a specific purpose that fits the DW mission without being over the top. My thought is this: fluff dictates that needler based weapons are the choice weapons of the Ordo Xenos, so how about a missile that fires a pack of needler flechettes instead of a frag shot.
It would add this to the list of missiles: (Needler Flechette Missile) 48" SX AP6 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
The two Tactical Squads and the Devastator Sergeants also have those funky special backpacks from the plastic Dev Squad sprue, and my intent was to write rules for that as well.

A thread from a while back went into the Deathwatch a little, and the concensus ('cept for good ol' Stelly up there) was that the Deathwatch should focus on technology as their means of defeating the Alien. Not Xenos technology, but the most advanced, cutting edge Imperial technology.

I also want to eventually add Deathwatch Dreads in there, the idea being a Dread from another Chapter doing a tour of duty with the Deathwatch, or a particular Marine who served the Deathwatch several times as to earn a permanant place after death, and so on.

Anyway, all very pie-in-the-sky broad brush-strokes concept stuff, but that was my starting point.

With the Ordo Xeno's close tie to the adeptus mechanicus the DW Annihilus squads would benefit from the same sort of tech Techmarines have. The backpack's sensor looks similar to signums worn by techmarines on their helmets. Signum conferees one re-roll a turn in shooting, that sounds good and simple to me.

Like I said above I think a dreadnought is more the realm of Grey Knights; dreadnoughts have been done to death with several armies having specialized versions (Furioso BA, Mortis DA, Venerable SW and everyone else). I also don't think it fits the fluff of this sort of DW. No matter how honored a chapter might be any marine worthy enough to be entombed would be wanted returned by his chapter so they could entombed him in a dreadnought. I don't deny I do see the appeal I just think we could come up with something that fits better and give a more unique flavor. Thats why I proposed a Land Speeder, which kills two birds with one stone by providing a Fast Attack option and a unique vehicle that DW are lacking.

And I just realised why I'm the man behind the curtain,

Hehehe.

BYE

The post above I accidentally clicked submit so when I thought I was still writing a response and hit submit again it put the complete post here. I edited the above post to conclude my comments as intended.

To the man behind the curtain, I am specificlly interested in hearing your thoughts on the landspeeder vs dreadnought and the missile ammo issue.

You guys make me sleepy.

Astartes are different because they are, but guys with Astartes equipment/stats/abilities are different because of their special rules.

Gee. I've been blind all this time.

And you make me weepy.

Weepy over the fact that you still can't grasp that this isn't a thread about Marines, or Sisters, but a thread about a unified Inquisition Codex.

feth off Stelek. The grownups are discussing the actual thread topic. Take your non sequitur-ish bs somewhere else.

BYE

DW Landspeeder vs Dreadnoughts?
Missile ammo?
Topic... thoughts?

Stelek must've gotten into this hobby because he liked how slotta bases looked sexy in black... or something as ridiculous... cause it obviously wasn't what drew everyone else.

aka_mythos wrote:I think what you have so far is a good army.

We have DW killteams as a base unit.

In the fluff it is the job of certain DW to stand guard over different libraries but also places where larger cthulu-esque alien threats are known to be sleeping. I imagine these units could be the the basis for the more specialized unit DW Terminators (I like the name Deathwatch Centurions but it might need work)

Centurions works. We can't call them Guardians sadly, but Centurions is not a bad name actually. Something along the lines of:

"Centurions are elite Space Marines who have served several tours with the Deathwatch, and have been given the holy duty of guarding the Ordos Xenos' most revered artefacts, sacred texts and ancient tombs. Clad in ornate suits of Terminator armour, and wielding Storm Bolters and Cyclones augmented by the Ordos Xenos' best artificers, Centurions are a sight to behold on the battlefield, as they enact their duty to the Ordos Xenos and to the Emperor with a fervour not seen even among regular Space Marine Chapters."

aka_mythos wrote:Marik, Deathwatch Annihilus Squad is good but needs some "umph" by ensuring appropriate options.

Well, if what he meant by that was a Deathwatch Dev Squad (essentially), I think the 4 Heavy Weapons with augmented munitions would give it enough 'umph'. Either 4 MLs or 4 HBs. Again, part of that is me being selfish as that's exactly the way I designed my Deathwatch (I have 4 HBs and 4 MLs that I can swap between the two DW Tac Squads and the DW Dev Squad), but nevertheless, I think with the limited ability to gain heavy weapons means that it would be the special munitions that would give them the punch they need to be competative. Combined with the 'high technology' idea you could add further enhancements to the unit such as Signums or Anti-Night-Fight abilities - even base around that new SM Backpack bit from the plastic Dev Sprue I mentioned. They look like a high-tech targeting array, so why not make something out of it? Aside from that, the only other weapon I can see them getting is a Heavy Flamer for their Terminator units - so basically it's Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers. I'm also assuming that Cyclones are Heavy 2 (like they should be, and possibly will be in the new Codex).

As far as Combi-Weapons go, in order to retain any use the Deathwatch would need to have a special sub-set of Combi-Weapons that didn't run out immediately upon use. One of the worse weapon rules in current 40K is the fact that Combi-Weapons last for a single shot, and then that's it. Now that might be fine for the odd unit here and there, but for an army where it's their only special weapon, it needs to be more than a one-shot wonder. Can't think of a name for it yet, but a 'unlimited ammo' Combi-weapon is what they need.

aka_mythos wrote:Other than that I think the DW should have their own unique vehicle since SoB and GK have their Excorcist and Dreadnought respectively. I don't believe DW would use dreadnoughts because the body of a fallen DW would be too valued by the loaner chapter to allow the DW to hold onto indefinitely and with only a limited number of dreadnoughts held by each chapter a chapter would not loan one out. That I think leaves the Landspeeder as the most viable platform for a DW vehicle. Akin to the close air support provided to special forces (see Black Hawk Down)

Hmm... funny you should mention that.

A while back - going on 3 or more years now - myself and another member of our group were brainstorming ideas for a mission called 'Thunderhawk Down'. This big Apoc-level battle (long before Apoc was ever announced or even thought of) was to be set in the Ork city of Morkadeeshu, and focus on units of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers trying to extract people from a downed Thunderhawk (or, as it started, two downed Valkyries). We were going to have loads and loads of Trukks (Orky Teknikals!), and the Humvee Column (Rhinos full of Storm Troopers), and various squads of elite Guardsmen (Rangers) and Deathwatch (Delta Force) on the ground.

We came to the discussion of what would the 'Little Birds'. As you've seen Black Hawk Down, you no doubt remember the Little Bids. What stuck with us most was the use of the Little Birds as improvised troop transports, and we hit upon the idea for a transport Land Speeder, with minimal guns compared to a standard Land Speeder, but the transport capacity for about 6 models. In our case though it wasn't for Deathwatch Marines, but for Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, and this is where the idea of the Inquisitorial Rapid Responce Team in our Codex: Daemonhunters Revisited came from (soon to be turned into a unified Inquisi Codex).

You can imagine our joy when we saw GW would be making a transport speeder for Scouts. Doesn't take much to turn them into Storm Trooper transports.

So we had thought of the Transport Speeder thing, but not for Deathwatch. I had also thought about the Dreadnought issue. There is no 'Deathwatch Chapter' per se, they're a collection of other Chapters brought together. There is no formal organisation, everything is ad hoc, and they're brought together where needed. If one of them was killed (or close to) to the point where he would be interred in a Dreadnought's sarcophagus, wouldn't he just go back to the Chapter he came from?

In most cases, yeah, he probably would.

But let's step back for a second - isn't the idea of a Deathwatch Dread with all sorts of funky, high-tech Ordo Xenos gear too much to pass up? Isn't that image cool enough to justify ignoring what would probably happen and just include it anyway? I think it is.

As far as a completely new vehicle... the game's crowded enough as it is. Even the Repressor is kind've redundant in Sob armies as they can get Rhinos and Immolators. I would say Deathwatch should just keep the two main staples - Rhinos and Land Raiders (and crazy-cool Ordo Xenos enhanced Dreads!!! ). Given their ad hoc nature, I just think that keeping armouries of unique vehicles would be impractical. Might as well keep it simple - and it don't get much more simple than the Rhino. Hell, you could even say that ancient and holy Land Raiders were good enough to enact tours with the Deathwatch themselves - their Machine Spirits are sentient (or near enough to) afterall.

aka_mythos wrote:My idea for a Deathwatch Landspeeder is the Land Speeder Torrent; it has a heavy bolter in front with typhoon missile pods (both weapons with DW ammo) also the speeder would have an ability similar to that of the new Land Speeder Storm where by it can scramble enemy deepstrikes increasing the enemies deviation roles. Though some other unique ability might be better to make it more distinct, such as allowing them to deep strike.

I have no problem with a Deathwatch Land Speeder, I just don't see why it'd be any different to regular Land Speeders except for the scramble effect, as that ties into the 'high-tech' thing I talked about earlier. Actually, I'm warming to the idea of Deathwatch Land Speeders, maybe not as a transport (just can't see it flying with 5 power armour guys + crew + weapons), but let's not throw out the idea of the Deathwatch Dread!!!

aka_mythos wrote:I agree this is a good and reasonable addition seeing as the Sternguard Vets have similar options.

I was quite surpised by the Sternguard ammo options actually. Guess we'll see in a few months if they have any good ideas and I'll just pilfer from them for my own Codex. D

aka_mythos wrote:I think the DW Terminator unit should be able to take combi-weapons for ammo access but should also have the different Terminator assault squad weapon options. I think missile ammo also helps zero in on the main DW Term. squads heavy weapon without adding a new weapon (like a heavy bolter which isn't appropriate).

I think missile launchers with special shots is a good idea though how it'd be represented is hard, like a missile launcher with a plasma missile would function just like a plasma cannon and that'd be a little wrong. A melta-missile is more reasonable but would also be hard without making the missile launcher into a missile launcher-multimelta combo. A special missile would need to be conceptualized with a specific purpose that fits the DW mission without being over the top. My thought is this: fluff dictates that needler based weapons are the choice weapons of the Ordo Xenos, so how about a missile that fires a pack of needler flechettes instead of a frag shot.
It would add this to the list of missiles: (Needler Flechette Missile) 48" SX AP6 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning.

As it happens, I already wrote down a few very basic ideas for different ammo types. Let me just find them... ok, here we go. Generally speaking the idea was to have different ammunition types to deal with different types of Xenos, again, emphasising the high-tech nature of the Deathwatch and the Ordos Xenos in general:

Mk. III Hellfire Shell - Anti-Tyranid

Contains mutagenic acid and other toxins, designed specifically to fight against the Tyranid menace. As a side effect, it is also very effective against non-Tyranids. Hellfire weapons always wound on a 2+, regardless of the type of target being shot at.

Hellfire Bolter
R30 S4 AP3 Assault 1

Hellfire Storm Bolter
R30 S4 AP3 Assault 2/Twin-Linked

Hellfire Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP3 Assault 1/Blast

Hellfire Missile
R48 S8 AP3 Assault 1

(Aside: A couple of things above the above. In 40K Revisited, ranges are inreased somewhat, so Bolters have a standard range of 30", not 24". Additionally, Storm Bolters have had the Twin-Linked rule added on to make them superior to Combi-Bolters, something they're not currently at 12" or less, which never made any sense as they're supposed to be the next generation of combi-bolters. The heavy weapons are also all 'Assault' rather than 'heavy' as all Deathwatch have suspensors, and the 'half-range = assault rather than heavy' is clunky and unnecessary when it's much easier to just make the weapon Assault rather than Heavy, period.)


Mk.XII Tempest Shells - Anti-Ork

These shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The explosive charge is increased and internal casing is replaced with material that fragments that, when they detonate, create a shower of debris that is extremely deadly to troops with low armour protection.

Tempest Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4

Tempest Storm Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Tempest Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 10

Tempest Missile
R48 S4 AP5 Assault 1/Large Blast


Mk.XXVI Ignis Shells - Anti-Tau

Designed to fight against the Tau and instil fear and confusion in their ranks, these shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The shells detonate before hitting their targets, unleashing waves of electricity. The effect both inflicts damage on enemy combatants as well as scouring the air of any airborne pheromone traces. Tau subject to these types of shells are left confused without their pheromone-based command system, and often flee. Tau units hit by Ignis Shells must always take a Morale Check, with their Leadership Value reduced by –1 for every models killed by the Ignis rounds.

Ignis Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire

Ignis Storm Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Ignis Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 3

Ignis Missile
R48 S5 AP4 Assault 1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves

And the other two, and these haven't had rules written, were the Mk.VI Vanus Shells (designed to stun psykers - anti-Eldar shells) and the Mk.IX Tabidus Shells, which were Acid shells designed to eat away at Necrons, ignoring WBB and doing loads of damage (also decent against vehicles).

Now the biggest problem was how do you work these shells into the list?

If they're taken indivudually (ie. you have a choice between the different shell types), then they're useless as you just take the best general ammo type and go from there. The other idea was to have the special ammo as a unit upgrade (ie. for +25 points per squad, they may have Augmented Munitions for their Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Combi-Weapons, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers) and then depending on who you were fighting, you'd just get that ammo. So if you were fighting Eldar, any unit that took 'Augmented Munitions' would be assumed to have the Mk.VI Vanus Shells. If you came up against Tyranids, everyone who you'd given Autmented Munitions to would automatically have Mk.III Hellfire Shells.

The problem with that idea is twofold:

1. What if you come up against Marines (is there an anti-Marine round? Should there be an anti-Marine round? Do you just let the Deathwatch player pick any ammo type when playing non-Xenos?)?
2. How do you cost this as it is essentially a form of prescribed and encouraged 'list tailoring', something I've never liked.

Anyway, those were my original ideas on the subject. It's not a case of giving Plasma and Melta missiles to Missile Launchers/Cyclone Launchers. It's a matter of adapting the fancy bolter rounds for general use with Missile Weapons, something that, I think, is more realistic and far more fitting for the Deathwatch.

aka_mythos wrote:With the Ordo Xeno's close tie to the adeptus mechanicus the DW Annihilus squads would benefit from the same sort of tech Techmarines have. The backpack's sensor looks similar to signums worn by techmarines on their helmets. Signum conferees one re-roll a turn in shooting, that sounds good and simple to me.

That's the idea I was getting at.

aka_mythos wrote:Like I said above I think a dreadnought is more the realm of Grey Knights

Ah c'mon - don't you want a Dread with some fancy old-tech weapons on it, special munitions (there's a new Dread with a Hurricane Bolter coming out soon - imagine that with Augmented Munitions!!!). Admit it, a Deathwatch Dread is cool.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:Stelek must've gotten into this hobby because he liked how slotta bases looked sexy in black... or something as ridiculous... cause it obviously wasn't what drew everyone else.

Actually because I thought Abaddon and Chaos Terminators looked like badasses.

Who knew they'd be the same figs 15 years later?

So I swapped to Eldar cause I thought their tanks and Phoenix Lords looked badass.

Who knew they'd be the same figs 15 years later?

Now ya know why I started.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think what you have so far is a good army.

We have DW killteams as a base unit.

In the fluff it is the job of certain DW to stand guard over different libraries but also places where larger cthulu-esque alien threats are known to be sleeping. I imagine these units could be the the basis for the more specialized unit DW Terminators (I like the name Deathwatch Centurions but it might need work)

Centurions works. We can't call them Guardians sadly, but Centurions is not a bad name actually. Something along the lines of:

"Centurions are elite Space Marines who have served several tours with the Deathwatch, and have been given the holy duty of guarding the Ordos Xenos' most revered artefacts, sacred texts and ancient tombs. Clad in ornate suits of Terminator armour, and wielding Storm Bolters and Cyclones augmented by the Ordos Xenos' best artificers, Centurions are a sight to behold on the battlefield, as they enact their duty to the Ordos Xenos and to the Emperor with a fervour not seen even among regular Space Marine Chapters."

Nice!
In the same way Captains lead kill teams, do you think the sgt equivalent should still be Captains or something else?
Also with the stat boost to Space Marine Captains in the new Codex SM do you think Kill Team Captains should get that boost or maybe we should take advantage of the change and rename the Captain to Praetor or some other name that would draw less a direct connect to the Space Marine commander, as I think the DW Hero should have the new uber stat line while the squad captain has the current stat line.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Marik, Deathwatch Annihilus Squad is good but needs some "umph" by ensuring appropriate options.

Well, if what he meant by that was a Deathwatch Dev Squad (essentially), I think the 4 Heavy Weapons with augmented munitions would give it enough 'umph'. Either 4 MLs or 4 HBs. Again, part of that is me being selfish as that's exactly the way I designed my Deathwatch (I have 4 HBs and 4 MLs that I can swap between the two DW Tac Squads and the DW Dev Squad), but nevertheless, I think with the limited ability to gain heavy weapons means that it would be the special munitions that would give them the punch they need to be competative. Combined with the 'high technology' idea you could add further enhancements to the unit such as Signums or Anti-Night-Fight abilities - even base around that new SM Backpack bit from the plastic Dev Sprue I mentioned. They look like a high-tech targeting array, so why not make something out of it? Aside from that, the only other weapon I can see them getting is a Heavy Flamer for their Terminator units - so basically it's Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers. I'm also assuming that Cyclones are Heavy 2 (like they should be, and possibly will be in the new Codex).

Yes it was what he meant. I think limiting to HB and MLs keeps in line with the mobility theme of the DW.
I think the Annihilus/Devastator squad having a signum is good. I think its a good way of representing the back pack sensor array.
I was thinking the DW theme of "The Eternal Vigil" could be the in to give an army wide "Acute Sense" special rule as the anti-night-fight abilities.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
As far as Combi-Weapons go, in order to retain any use the Deathwatch would need to have a special sub-set of Combi-Weapons that didn't run out immediately upon use. One of the worse weapon rules in current 40K is the fact that Combi-Weapons last for a single shot, and then that's it. Now that might be fine for the odd unit here and there, but for an army where it's their only special weapon, it needs to be more than a one-shot wonder. Can't think of a name for it yet, but a 'unlimited ammo' Combi-weapon is what they need.

I don't think we should deviate in how combi-weapons are done. Between special ammo in line with Sternguard and the special heavies the combi-special weapons become secondary. I do think something unique as a hero's wargear option is viable. The real value of combi-weapons are when you take straight up combi-bolter and get to re-roll "vegence bolts" which has stats that are practically a special weapon.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Other than that I think the DW should have their own unique vehicle since SoB and GK have their Excorcist and Dreadnought respectively. I don't believe DW would use dreadnoughts because the body of a fallen DW would be too valued by the loaner chapter to allow the DW to hold onto indefinitely and with only a limited number of dreadnoughts held by each chapter a chapter would not loan one out. That I think leaves the Landspeeder as the most viable platform for a DW vehicle. Akin to the close air support provided to special forces (see Black Hawk Down)

Hmm... funny you should mention that.

...

You can imagine our joy when we saw GW would be making a transport speeder for Scouts. Doesn't take much to turn them into Storm Trooper transports.

So we had thought of the Transport Speeder thing, but not for Deathwatch.

I am really looking forward to it. I play a 90% scout army and I'm really looking forward to this toy.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
I had also thought about the Dreadnought issue. There is no 'Deathwatch Chapter' per se, they're a collection of other Chapters brought together. There is no formal organisation, everything is ad hoc, and they're brought together where needed. If one of them was killed (or close to) to the point where he would be interred in a Dreadnought's sarcophagus, wouldn't he just go back to the Chapter he came from?

In most cases, yeah, he probably would.

But let's step back for a second - isn't the idea of a Deathwatch Dread with all sorts of funky, high-tech Ordo Xenos gear too much to pass up? Isn't that image cool enough to justify ignoring what would probably happen and just include it anyway? I think it is.

Oh I'm really tempted by the idea, I can't quite get over the idea of a chapter giving away what would be a good dreadnought or good marine for a dreadnought. That aside I think the unit fits the bill as a viable DW vehicle. On the assumption we can work out the concept I think the unit would be 0-1 in line with a venerable dreadnought and no option to take non-venerables.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
As far as a completely new vehicle... the game's crowded enough as it is. Even the Repressor is kind've redundant in Sob armies as they can get Rhinos and Immolators. I would say Deathwatch should just keep the two main staples - Rhinos and Land Raiders (and crazy-cool Ordo Xenos enhanced Dreads!!! ). Given their ad hoc nature, I just think that keeping armouries of unique vehicles would be impractical. Might as well keep it simple - and it don't get much more simple than the Rhino. Hell, you could even say that ancient and holy Land Raiders were good enough to enact tours with the Deathwatch themselves - their Machine Spirits are sentient (or near enough to) afterall.

I think the repressor can be solved by giving ordos the option to purchase a pintel mounted flamer/heavy flamer (whichever the repressor has). The Immolator is really just a Razorback upgrade so I don't see that as being all that unique. DW have access to Rhinos and Razorbacks and all three ordos have landraider access.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:My idea for a Deathwatch Landspeeder is the Land Speeder Torrent; it has a heavy bolter in front with typhoon missile pods (both weapons with DW ammo) also the speeder would have an ability similar to that of the new Land Speeder Storm where by it can scramble enemy deepstrikes increasing the enemies deviation roles. Though some other unique ability might be better to make it more distinct, such as allowing them to deep strike.

I have no problem with a Deathwatch Land Speeder, I just don't see why it'd be any different to regular Land Speeders except for the scramble effect, as that ties into the 'high-tech' thing I talked about earlier. Actually, I'm warming to the idea of Deathwatch Land Speeders, maybe not as a transport (just can't see it flying with 5 power armour guys + crew + weapons), but let's not throw out the idea of the Deathwatch Dread!!!

I'm thinking on this and with kill teams and centurions deep striking that a deep striking land speeder seems appropriate. Representing its ability to fly higher than the average speeder and swooping down. I don't think its too crazy, it can further stay in character with DW ammo. It then has the scramblers reducing the enemies ability to call for help so to speak. I think it adds distinction to DW over GK, a distinction thats need is compounded by them being in the same book.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I agree this is a good and reasonable addition seeing as the Sternguard Vets have similar options.

I was quite surpised by the Sternguard ammo options actually. Guess we'll see in a few months if they have any good ideas and I'll just pilfer from them for my own Codex. D

The rumored sternguard ammo is:
Dragonfire Bolts:
Range 24" S4 AP 5 Rapid Fire Ignores Cover*
*Ignores Cover: Cover saves cannot be taken against Dragonfire Bolts

Hellfire Rounds: For heavy bolter As it is in the DW rules.

Kraken Bolts:
Range 30" S 4 AP 4 Rapid Fire

Vengeance Bolts:
Range 18" S 4 AP 3 Rapid Fire Gets Hot!

I think it works because there are distinct trade offs. Dragon Fire is the standard round replacing the standard bolter profile; Kraken less strength longer range; Vengence short range high AP, gets hot. They get all three rounds as standard and are able to choose from them each time they shoot.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the DW Terminator unit should be able to take combi-weapons for ammo access but should also have the different Terminator assault squad weapon options. I think missile ammo also helps zero in on the main DW Term. squads heavy weapon without adding a new weapon (like a heavy bolter which isn't appropriate).

I think missile launchers with special shots is a good idea though how it'd be represented is hard, like a missile launcher with a plasma missile would function just like a plasma cannon and that'd be a little wrong. A melta-missile is more reasonable but would also be hard without making the missile launcher into a missile launcher-multimelta combo. A special missile would need to be conceptualized with a specific purpose that fits the DW mission without being over the top. My thought is this: fluff dictates that needler based weapons are the choice weapons of the Ordo Xenos, so how about a missile that fires a pack of needler flechettes instead of a frag shot.
It would add this to the list of missiles: (Needler Flechette Missile) 48" SX AP6 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning.

As it happens, I already wrote down a few very basic ideas for different ammo types. Let me just find them... ok, here we go. Generally speaking the idea was to have different ammunition types to deal with different types of Xenos, again, emphasising the high-tech nature of the Deathwatch and the Ordos Xenos in general:

Mk. III Hellfire Shell - Anti-Tyranid

Contains mutagenic acid and other toxins, designed specifically to fight against the Tyranid menace. As a side effect, it is also very effective against non-Tyranids. Hellfire weapons always wound on a 2+, regardless of the type of target being shot at.

I see where you're going with that. The name and concept I think are too much a like to the heavy bolter round, everyone would just take missile launchers and ignore the heavy bolter. Let's keep the ideas rolling.

I was thinking on the ML that we should have two missiles that supersede Krak and Frag. My idea for a needler flechette missile that kinda airburst above an enemy might work to supersede the frag missile.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Hellfire Bolter
R30 S4 AP3 Assault 1

...

Ignis Missile
R48 S5 AP4 Assault 1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves

And the other two, and these haven't had rules written, were the Mk.VI Vanus Shells (designed to stun psykers - anti-Eldar shells) and the Mk.IX Tabidus Shells, which were Acid shells designed to eat away at Necrons, ignoring WBB and doing loads of damage (also decent against vehicles).

Now the biggest problem was how do you work these shells into the list?

Wow, I think your ammo choices has some good ideas behind them I just think its a bit too much and the cries of cheese would be heard from the rooftops.

One thing to realize is that with Sternguard they have access to all ammo and can decide which one they want to use each turn. With that in mind all ammo should be less extreme where selection has tactical trade off and gains. Take this for example, it has a great AP but also "get hot!":
Vengeance Bolts:
Range 18" S 4 AP 3 Rapid Fire Gets Hot!

I think making ammo in line with these is the best approach; where all weapons come standard with a selection of ammo that player can choose to use each turn. Purchasing ammo in the way it appears in the DW Kill Team rules work with one squad but with a whole army could get cumbersome.

The advantage against certain races come from each ammo's strong point. I see it more a matter of fluff.

I say we use the Sternguard ammo, we add maybe one more choice for bolters. I say the Heavy Bolter is fine with its choice of standard fire and hellfire ammo; missile launcher with two missiles. More than this and it would be too much book keeping. DW would be called cheesy where four weapons could have some 4 or 5 different statlines.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
If they're taken indivudually (ie. you have a choice between the different shell types), then they're useless as you just take the best general ammo type and go from there. The other idea was to have the special ammo as a unit upgrade (ie. for +25 points per squad, they may have Augmented Munitions for their Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Combi-Weapons, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers) and then depending on who you were fighting, you'd just get that ammo. So if you were fighting Eldar, any unit that took 'Augmented Munitions' would be assumed to have the Mk.VI Vanus Shells. If you came up against Tyranids, everyone who you'd given Autmented Munitions to would automatically have Mk.III Hellfire Shells.

The problem with that idea is twofold:

1. What if you come up against Marines (is there an anti-Marine round? Should there be an anti-Marine round? Do you just let the Deathwatch player pick any ammo type when playing non-Xenos?)?
2. How do you cost this as it is essentially a form of prescribed and encouraged 'list tailoring', something I've never liked.

Anyway, those were my original ideas on the subject. It's not a case of giving Plasma and Melta missiles to Missile Launchers/Cyclone Launchers. It's a matter of adapting the fancy bolter rounds for general use with Missile Weapons, something that, I think, is more realistic and far more fitting for the Deathwatch.

With the sternguard style of unit organization ammo is always available and can be switched out on a turn to turn basis.
1) The Sternguard vengence shell is AP3 but gets hot.
2) The unit then becomes a fixed cost per marine since he always has the right ammo, this stream lines playability. Sternguard are suppose to be around 23pts/model. I think its important to keep it simple.

I think I'd be more comfortable with having distinct ammo for bolters, distinct ammo for heavy bolters, and distinct missiles for missile launchers. Other wise you create a situation like you point out where there is a clear hierarchy of effectiveness where a missile launcher is better than a heavy bolter so no one takes heavy bolters.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:With the Ordo Xeno's close tie to the adeptus mechanicus the DW Annihilus squads would benefit from the same sort of tech Techmarines have. The backpack's sensor looks similar to signums worn by techmarines on their helmets. Signum conferees one re-roll a turn in shooting, that sounds good and simple to me.

That's the idea I was getting at.

aka_mythos wrote:Like I said above I think a dreadnought is more the realm of Grey Knights

Ah c'mon - don't you want a Dread with some fancy old-tech weapons on it, special munitions (there's a new Dread with a Hurricane Bolter coming out soon - imagine that with Augmented Munitions!!!). Admit it, a Deathwatch Dread is cool.

BYE

It'd be cool, but I think we could do better.

I think to proceed we can add one new bolter ammo choice to the Sternguard list and use that as the basis for Deathwatch ammo. I think the heavy bolter with suspensor and hellfire round is fairly well established I don't think we need to add more. The missile launcher needs I think two rounds, I still think my idea is solid and that we can adapt one of your many ideas to it.

I think the best approach for the Dreadnought vs. Landspeeder choice is to write up rules for both and to see which one fits in with DW best in game play. In both cases the vehicles would have basic DW ammo with high tech perks.

I think the Centurion squad and the Annihilus squad are straight forward with simple perks. Down side to Annihilus team should be they have none of the close combat weapon options.

Just like how SoB and GK got army wide rules DW needs the same. I mentioned "The Eternal Vigil" giving accute sense.
The other rule that needs to be addressed is the fact that they are alien hunters. If they hunted a specific xenos this would mean they should have "Preferred Enemy" xenos. The problem is that giving this to them against all aliens goes too far. My thought is since they are sent out to hunt the big threats they should have "Preferred Enemy" Monstorus Creatures/Xenos. A slight gain showing how they go headhunting things like Hive Tyrants, C'Tan, etc.
The DW Killteam and Centurions can deep strike some rule tying into that aspect might be appropriate.

With the rules I wrote for the various munition types I tried to keep a distinction between what the Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter did.

For example, the Tempest Bolts (which are just flechette rounds mixed with 40K's version of Metal Storm) give the Heavy Bolter 10 shots, wheras the ML is a large blast (which is pretty potent against big groups of orks in the open). Whereas the Hellfire Rounds differ greatly, with the Heavy Bolter acting as a blast to take out groups of lesser creatures, whereas the Missile Launcher is a single-hit device for taking out big tyranid Nasties.

Plus, as I designed it as a squad upgrade (and not something you swapped out between turns), I wanted to keep each type the same - if everyone has Vanus shells, then everyone has Vanus shells, end of story - and it affects all weapons equally (with the exception of any Flamer, Melta or Plasma based weapons).


The Sternguard ammo just achieves a similar result without any real focus. And Gets Hot! is just their attempt at balancing it, and I think it's a clunky one at that.


As far as Preferred Enemy goes, that is a tough one. As you said, is just giving them 'Preferred Enemy - Aliens' balanced? I like the idea of specific head-hunter units.

Also remember the Deathwatch Assault Squad. Can we think of a cool name for them?

BYE

Modquisition Mode:
In the immortal words of Chef (pours one for the cartoon homeys that have gone before)
1) "Childrens lets play nice now. Everyone please maintain the politeness and argue the merits not personalities." That means you and you know who you are (and the Shadow knows, but that is a given).

2) This is the proposed rules thread. The form of the proposed codex, its merits, and fluff underpinnings are free for debate. If you do not believe there should be a proposed Inquisition Codex or part of it, or want to debate how much GW would accept such a codex then this is not the appropriate forum for you.

Modquisition Mode off.

the man behind the curtain wrote:With the rules I wrote for the various munition types I tried to keep a distinction between what the Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter did.

For example, the Tempest Bolts (which are just flechette rounds mixed with 40K's version of Metal Storm) give the Heavy Bolter 10 shots, wheras the ML is a large blast (which is pretty potent against big groups of orks in the open). Whereas the Hellfire Rounds differ greatly, with the Heavy Bolter acting as a blast to take out groups of lesser creatures, whereas the Missile Launcher is a single-hit device for taking out big tyranid Nasties.

I understand that there was a distinction in that they each retained dependent on the use of their constituent weapon. I guess my point was more that I think the even if in concept the ammo for the Missile and Heavy Bolter were similar that there would be less of a direct connection stat wise and maybe a different name. An example is th This goes to the fact that I think a lean and mean approach to DW's ammo works better. Take metal-storm ammos, it is effectively an air bursting frag bolter round but by its stats on par to a shotgun and not a frag grenade.

I didn't address your ammo options more directly because I was about to go to sleep when I responded, so let me do that now:

the man behind the curtain wrote: Mk. III Hellfire Shell - Anti-Tyranid

Contains mutagenic acid and other toxins, designed specifically to fight against the Tyranid menace. As a side effect, it is also very effective against non-Tyranids. Hellfire weapons always wound on a 2+, regardless of the type of target being shot at.

Hellfire Bolter R30 S4 AP3 Assault 1

Hellfire Storm Bolter R30 S4 AP3 Assault 2/Twin-Linked

Hellfire Heavy Bolter R36 S5 AP3 Assault 1/Blast

Hellfire Missile R48 S8 AP3 Assault 1

(Aside: A couple of things above the above. In 40K Revisited, ranges are inreased somewhat, so Bolters have a standard range of 30", not 24". Additionally, Storm Bolters have had the Twin-Linked rule added on to make them superior to Combi-Bolters, something they're not currently at 12" or less, which never made any sense as they're supposed to be the next generation of combi-bolters. The heavy weapons are also all 'Assault' rather than 'heavy' as all Deathwatch have suspensors, and the 'half-range = assault rather than heavy' is clunky and unnecessary when it's much easier to just make the weapon Assault rather than Heavy, period.)

I was going to comment on the range, so for the purposes of the Codex:Inquisition, they should be brought in line with what is to be expected with 40k and not 40k Revisited. I don't think there should be bolter/stormbolter rounds immediately like this; the fluff for the hellfire heavy round says it is the most compact round of it kind. So When I brought up the Sternguard ammo I was just pointing out the trade offs involved, we don't have to follow exactly. For example what you have above is just like the vengeance bolt round without gets hot and almost double the range. I think for standard 40k ignoring the 1/2 range to use the weapon as an assault weapon and just make it assault you make to drastic a departure from the weapon being a heavy bolter. Also hellfire has been established as having AP 4 and is going to be in the Codex: SM with that same stat.

The assault/24 is what makes the Storm Bolter better than a Combi-bolter. The assault stat of the storm bolter shows it fires like a bullet hose with the range and accuracy of a rifle while combi-bolter with rapid fire is more an assault rifle with its "twin-linked" nature representing a three-round burst sort of slower fire. Thats where the technological distinction lies: storm bolter has less recoil and can be used like a submachine gun but with a rifles advantages while the older combi-bolter fires more slowly and requires one to better aim because they are throwing out as many individual shells.

That being said it is also a combi-bolters slower rate of fire why the DW would use it over a stormbolter; the slower stable fire makes it more ideal for delivering exotic ammo; where the adeptus mechanicus might want to see every round count.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Mk.XII Tempest Shells - Anti-Ork

These shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The explosive charge is increased and internal casing is replaced with material that fragments that, when they detonate, create a shower of debris that is extremely deadly to troops with low armour protection.

Tempest Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4

Tempest Storm Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Tempest Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 10

Tempest Missile
R48 S4 AP5 Assault 1/Large Blast

I think designing a different bolt for each alien goes too far. Make a set of rounds, where each is designed for a general sort of enemy: high strength for high toughness enemies; long range for heavy shooting enemies; high AP armored enemies; and an anti-swarm round. But don't just make them directly anti-tyranid, anti-ork etc. The DW while they do fight those enemies, their primary goal is fighting the bigger aliens.

Assault 4? Assault 4 twin linked... this better be for a game of Apocalypse. 40K uses an abstract system for its number of shots and the weapon value, ie an assault cannon firing some 6000 rounds per minute is s6 ap4 heavy 4 rending. So there needs to be a better justification for you making a heavy bolter better than a Gatling mega-bolter a superheavies main gun.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Mk.XXVI Ignis Shells - Anti-Tau

Designed to fight against the Tau and instil fear and confusion in their ranks, these shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The shells detonate before hitting their targets, unleashing waves of electricity. The effect both inflicts damage on enemy combatants as well as scouring the air of any airborne pheromone traces. Tau subject to these types of shells are left confused without their pheromone-based command system, and often flee. Tau units hit by Ignis Shells must always take a Morale Check, with their Leadership Value reduced by –1 for every models killed by the Ignis rounds.

Ignis Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire

Ignis Storm Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Ignis Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 3

Ignis Missile
R48 S5 AP4 Assault 1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves

As I said above this goes off the deep end and gives them each a watered down heavy weapon. Sternguard have less powerful ammo choices and cost 23 points... each one of your ammo choices would make a DW cost 35 points or so. The rate of fire needs to be adjusted for your weapons because even when the hellfire heavy bolter round is used it has roughly the same number of posssible hits it can inflict.

FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex:

Sternguard Veterans wearing black armor with a silver shoulderpad are also known as "Deathwatch".

Vanguard Veterans wearing silver armour are also known as "Grey Knights".

Therefore, they can be pulled from Codex: Inquisition.

jfrazell wrote:2) This is the proposed rules thread. The form of the proposed codex, its merits, and fluff underpinnings are free for debate. If you do not believe there should be a proposed Inquisition Codex or part of it, or want to debate how much GW would accept such a codex then this is not the appropriate forum for you.

If we believe that Codex: Inquisition should be more narrowly-focused and supplemented by a well-defined Codex: Sisters of Battle, is this still the appropriate forum?

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex:

Sternguard Veterans wearing black armor with a silver shoulderpad are also known as "Deathwatch".

Vanguard Veterans wearing silver armour are also known as "Grey Knights".

Therefore, they can be pulled from Codex: Inquisition.

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch, but unlike Deathwatch Sternguard do not have access to power weapons, power fists, lightning claws... etc.
Sternguard are not led by a Captain.
A deathwatch force can field up to 6 deathwatch squads which are scoring units, a sternguard squad is not a scoring unit.
Sterguard can not deep strike, Deathwatch can.
Sternguard do not have true grit, deathwatch does.

Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.
Vanguard have jump packs, grey knights don't.
Grey Knights have psyker powers, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have psy-cannons, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have Aegis suits, Vanguard do not.

aka_mythos wrote:The Inquisitor game came first establishing much of the fluff used in both inquisition codices. They were added into Codices because of their popularity.

That is totally untrue.

Rogue Trader predates Inquisitor by a very, very long time. The RT rulebook covers the Inquisition at a high level, and pictures a Battle Sister (SoB changed, just like SM and Eldar changed). Grey Knights date back to the Rogue Trader era, with their initial Fluff and army list being presented in one of the Realms of Chaos books. And don't forget the old "ninja" Assassin!

Second Edition provides the first Codex: Sisters of Battle, along with Assassins, and the well-known Ordos are clarified: Malleus, Sicarus, Hereticus. Note also that Assassins hints at additional Temples, in the same way that Codex: Eldar hints at other Aspects. Also, the nature of the Inquistion means that the list of Ordos and Chambers Militant isn't fixed or definitive (lesser-known Ordos and Chambers are possible). The SoB and Assassins Fluff is awesome reading.

Third Edition largely duplicates Second Edition, with minimal changes. Grey Knights still aren't an army.

Inquisitior appears, and largely recycles the Fluff that came before. The real novelty is the Fluff concept of Radicals and Puritans. But the idea that Inquisitor comes first is patently false, except, perhaps when you're talking about Xenos and Deathwatch...

Fourth Edition sees the Inquistition come to the fore, with Sisters and GK folded into the new system, GK getting a half-assed effort at "making an army". Deathwatch shoulderpads and guns create a new Chamber out of thin air, with WD rules - their Fluff is not exciting, much less inspired.

If you're going to make such claims, at least back them up with real facts.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch,
Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.

For the most part, once you lead either unit with a Librarian, you solve most of the differences.

Someone please tell Jonny boy that we've since moved on from that discussion, and are now discussing the actual topic and therefore have no desire to see it derailed with his usual pedantic drivel.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:This is a discussion on a comprehensive Codex: Inquisition, meant to combine all elements of the Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters while extrapolating elements for the Ordo Xenos into a single Codex to the exclusion of standard IG and SM forces. Codex: Imperium and Codex: Adeptus Sororitas discussion should be made in a new thread.

That may be what *you* want and how *you* see C: Inq. But Stelek, sourclams, and I all see C: Inq rather differently.

We don't believe that GK or DW are well-served by creating units out of thin air, when the Inquisition's native forces are limited. Furthermore, we don't believe that SoB are well-served by a structure that de-emphasizes them, given that they're a distinctive non-MEQ force.

IMO, I don't believe that C: Inq is well-served by focusing so heavily on MEQ elements, given that we have so many MEQ Codices out already. IMO, the last thing we need is yet another MEQ-heavy book.

And redefining the discussion to exclude all dissent or alternatives is pretty lame. The title is "Codex: Inquisition", not "Codex: Inquisition to be defined as 4 equivalent Chambers Militants excluding IG or SM Allies". Just because you don't like my vision for Codex: Inquisition, that doesn't make it a valid alternative that can't be discussed here.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Inquisitor game came first establishing much of the fluff used in both inquisition codices. They were added into Codices because of their popularity.

That is totally untrue.

Rogue Trader predates Inquisitor by a very, very long time. The RT rulebook covers the Inquisition at a high level, and pictures a Battle Sister (SoB changed, just like SM and Eldar changed). Grey Knights date back to the Rogue Trader era, with their initial Fluff and army list being presented in one of the Realms of Chaos books. And don't forget the old "ninja" Assassin!

Yes thats true, it does predate it. I own and played Rogue Trader. I have those books as well. The thing is each edition since added to the fluff, but that Inquisitor made changes and additions to the fluff and that its that collective fluff that was used as a basis for the two Codices. I have 3 of those old ninja assassin's models.
It was during the rogue trader era that Grey Knights saw extensive representation in White Dwarf with an army list and much presence in Space Hulk.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Second Edition provides the first Codex: Sisters of Battle, along with Assassins, and the well-known Ordos are clarified: Malleus, Sicarus, Hereticus. Note also that Assassins hints at additional Temples, in the same way that Codex: Eldar hints at other Aspects. Also, the nature of the Inquistion means that the list of Ordos and Chambers Militant isn't fixed or definitive (lesser-known Ordos and Chambers are possible). The SoB and Assassins Fluff is awesome reading.

This is a good example of fluff that superseded RT era because till this point SoB had not been mentioned. It also must not have been all that clarified considering Ordo Xenos was mentioned before second edition as one of the primary Ordos of the Inquisition. The important note is that Codex: SoB was the first significant mention of the Ordo Hereticus.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Third Edition largely duplicates Second Edition, with minimal changes. Grey Knights still aren't an army.

True, but Grey Knights had already had a army list of sorts in white dwarf, though back in those days no army had much in the way of unit entries.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Inquisitior appears, and largely recycles the Fluff that came before. The real novelty is the Fluff concept of Radicals and Puritans. But the idea that Inquisitor comes first is patently false, except, perhaps when you're talking about Xenos and Deathwatch...

Fourth Edition sees the Inquistition come to the fore, with Sisters and GK folded into the new system, GK getting a half-assed effort at "making an army". Deathwatch shoulderpads and guns create a new Chamber out of thin air, with WD rules - their Fluff is not exciting, much less inspired.
If you're going to make such claims, at least back them up with real facts.

I never claimed it came first. I claimed that it established much of the fluff GW supports today. I'm looking at my copy of Inquisitor and all the companion books the fluff is mildly different from the Inquisition before. Before Inquisitor the concept of Inquisition was that of a large monolithic entity. It established the sub-factions and ideological conflicts that exist. This is where the idea for all the inquisition retinue member come from for the Daemonhunter and Witchhunter codex come from, also where the sister repentia, arco-flagellent, the death cult assassins originate.

Deathwatch are not mentioned as a Space Marine unit until early 4th edition, true. The Ordo Xenos however was a big deal in Rogue Trader, Inquisitor Cryptman was regularly occurring in White Dwarf articles for the Ordo Xenos and in one such article a mention of a group called 'deathwatch' is made without explanation.

You shouldn't sell WD articles short, WD was the origin of many units and armies that before their debut in WD did not exist. GK, Necrons, Commisars, Land Raider, Vindicator sand many many more started out as WD articles, that had much more added to them as years went on. They appeared in WD first and then only later core books.

I originally said:

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch, but unlike Deathwatch Sternguard do not have access to power weapons, power fists, lightning claws... etc.
Sternguard are not led by a Captain.
A deathwatch force can field up to 6 deathwatch squads which are scoring units, a sternguard squad is not a scoring unit.
Sterguard can not deep strike, Deathwatch can.
Sternguard do not have true grit, deathwatch does.

Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.
Vanguard have jump packs, grey knights don't.
Grey Knights have psyker powers, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have psy-cannons, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have Aegis suits, Vanguard do not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch,
Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.

For the most part, once you lead either unit with a Librarian, you solve most of the differences.

Attaching one Librarian to one squad does not change the fact that the full GK squad is supposed to be armed with Aegis Suits and Nemesis Force weapons.
Attaching a Librarian does not change the fact that Sternguard do not have access to the full array of close combat weapons.
It does not change the fact that Vanguard and Sternguard are not scoring units while GK and DW would be.
Vanguards still don't have psy-cannons.
Grey Knights still don't were jump packs.
Sternguard and Vanguard do not have "True Grit"

Solve all that for those two units.

He can't Mythos. He'll just restate his position for the thousandth time and nothign will be achieved. Ferrous Cranus in extremis!!

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:This is a discussion on a comprehensive Codex: Inquisition, meant to combine all elements of the Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters while extrapolating elements for the Ordo Xenos into a single Codex to the exclusion of standard IG and SM forces. Codex: Imperium and Codex: Adeptus Sororitas discussion should be made in a new thread.

That may be what *you* want and how *you* see C: Inq. But Stelek, sourclams, and I all see C: Inq rather differently.

We don't believe that GK or DW are well-served by creating units out of thin air, when the Inquisition's native forces are limited. Furthermore, we don't believe that SoB are well-served by a structure that de-emphasizes them, given that they're a distinctive non-MEQ force.

IMO, I don't believe that C: Inq is well-served by focusing so heavily on MEQ elements, given that we have so many MEQ Codices out already. IMO, the last thing we need is yet another MEQ-heavy book.

And redefining the discussion to exclude all dissent or alternatives is pretty lame. The title is "Codex: Inquisition", not "Codex: Inquisition to be defined as 4 equivalent Chambers Militants excluding IG or SM Allies". Just because you don't like my vision for Codex: Inquisition, that doesn't make it a valid alternative that can't be discussed here.

That is what the original poster wanted. It the whole reason the thread was started. You, stelek, and sourclams have made it clear that you don't want to talk about what everyone else does. The idea was to take what GW has said about their intent with this codex and see if it can be done; that is what the original poster intended.

We have not pulled a single GK unit out of thin air. Every one of their units is one that appears in their book.

DW, we have proposed rules for a broader range of units, to give DW the same treatment GK recieved in the daemonhunters codex. All done in the attempt to create a codex: Inquisition that provides for each ordo a viable militant arm and give as equal a representation as possible.

The whole point of this Codex: Inquisition is to combine would be three kinda MEQ armies that are fairly similar into a single codex. Also how are SoB not MEQ they have power armor and bolters... sounds like a marine; they have jump pack troops, they use rhinos... how many similarities counts as too similar? And how many differences do they have to have to be distinct?

The exclusion of IG and SM allies is because neither army is strictly a part of the Inquisition.

The moment you stated your idea of the codex was a Codex: SoB with a single DW and GK unit that was when your "vision" became off topic and a second thread was appropriate.

I think we should have a new Codex, just for John:

Codex: Generic Imperium

HQ:
Generic Human Commander
Generic Space Marine Commander
Generic Inquisitor

Elites:
Generic Special Character
Generic Terminators
Generic Assassins
Generic Elite Power Armour
Generic Elite Humans

Troops:
Generic Humans
Generic Power Armour
Summoned Daemons

Fast Attack:
Generic Jump Packers
Generic Bikes

Heavy Support:
Generic Tank
Generic Artillery
Generic Walker

All of these units would be armed with a variety of Generic Pistols, Generic Rifles, Gattling-Generic Cannons, Generic Cannons, Heavy Generic Cannons, Long-Ranged Generic Cannons and Twin-Linked Generic Cannons.

Actually... there's too much variety in that list. Should just be:

Generic HQ
Generic Elites
Generic Troops
Summoned Daemons
Generic Fast Attack
Generic Heavy Support

6 different army list entries, very easy to understand. Fits all the design goals Jonny-boy wants.

BYE

This has really turned into a train wreck, and no one is getting anywhere.

If you'd like to continue discussing this topic, please start a new (or two new, rather) threads on this topic.