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padixon wrote:

He is an IC can as such has the FNP but when he joins the unit, he keeps feel no pain, but the unit does not get it. RAW

I know someone will post and disagree with me and that person who ever they are has not read the mad docs rules

Mad Doc Grotsnik comes with Dok's tools as part of his wargear.

Dok's tools: "...he confers Feel no Pain ability to his unit"

So, how exactly does Grotsnik not give FnP *to his unit* ^
l

but you are right, he does not possess any FnP at all, and if you want to agree with some of these crazy posters (this is an opinion obviously I could call you names also, but that would digress from having an intelligent discussion) than he would not gain FnP because he is *not* the unit he gives it too and so does not gain FnP because he would obviously (sarcasm) not gain the units special ability.

So in short

Dok by himself has FnP, because he is a unit of himself and grants himself FnP
Dok in a mob gives FnP to mob and in so doing gives them the FnP special rule and sense he is an IC, then losses said ability that he just gave and would have had, had he not joined the unit.
That is what this boils down too. MAYBE YOU DIDN'T READ. Mad Doc KEEPS FNP but the mob does not get it. You are confusing something in the rules and I honestly do not understand your confusion since you are not posting page numbers. Please post the page number after reading the section fully

Posters *believe* if a unit gains a special rule from an outside source (Grotsnik, painboy) then that rule cannot extend to any IC.

silly again opinion. I feel not reading the rules is silly personally

please qoute a page where it says the word MOB and not unit with relation to docs tools. This is not an interchangeable term.

Mad doc is a unit. By himself. please read the section of the book on units where it says a single model such as a hero can be a unit.

frgsinwntr wrote:

DaDok wrote:
So we are left with ICs like Grotsnik - for Orkz - who provide FNP to the unit they´re attached to or not and that´s the question I would say.
It´s a bit iffy that a Nobz Dok cant provide FNP to an IC but that´s how the rules are written down eh? At least during close combat and - as said - during shooting phase FNP or not doesnt matter for the IC except he can be targeted by special attacks.

ACTUALLY. By the Rules Grotsnik does NOT conver FNP to the unit he joins. Only he gets it. His rules that are confered to the unit is the "must move towards in the enemy at all times" and "fearless" thing. PLease Read this.

He is an IC can as such has the FNP but when he joins the unit, he keeps feel no pain, but the unit does not get it. RAW

I know someone will post and disagree with me and that person who ever they are has not read/reread mad docs rules

I know what the BGB and the Dex says Just pointed out sth to discuss. There, so get rid of your Red, it doesnt make your letters getting faster into someones brain

actually the red (or different color) does. But I will not digress and take this OT. If you wish to discuss this, start a new thread.

Note I did not include FNP. the one medpack short or what ever it is called makes no reference to FNP. Please post for me where the FNP is confered on mad docs page as I obviously can not find it. You can copy it word for word and highlight it to make it more obvious for me.

frgsinwntr wrote:

padixon wrote:

He is an IC can as such has the FNP but when he joins the unit, he keeps feel no pain, but the unit does not get it. RAW

I know someone will post and disagree with me and that person who ever they are has not read the mad docs rules

Mad Doc Grotsnik comes with Dok's tools as part of his wargear.

Dok's tools: "...he confers Feel no Pain ability to his unit"

So, how exactly does Grotsnik not give FnP *to his unit* ^
l

but you are right, he does not possess any FnP at all, and if you want to agree with some of these crazy posters (this is an opinion obviously I could call you names also, but that would digress from having an intelligent discussion) than he would not gain FnP because he is *not* the unit he gives it too and so does not gain FnP because he would obviously (sarcasm) not gain the units special ability.

So in short

Dok by himself has FnP, because he is a unit of himself and grants himself FnP
Dok in a mob gives FnP to mob and in so doing gives them the FnP special rule and sense he is an IC, then losses said ability that he just gave and would have had, had he not joined the unit.
That is what this boils down too. MAYBE YOU DIDN'T READ. Mad Doc KEEPS FNP but the mob does not get it. You are confusing something in the rules and I honestly do not understand your confusion since you are not posting page numbers. Please post the page number after reading the section fully

Posters *believe* if a unit gains a special rule from an outside source (Grotsnik, painboy) then that rule cannot extend to any IC.

silly again opinion. I feel not reading the rules is silly personally

please qoute a page where it says the word MOB and not unit with relation to docs tools. This is not an interchangeable term.

Mad doc is a unit. By himself. please read the section of the book on units where it says a single model such as a hero can be a unit.

How can you honestly not understand the words "confers Feel no Pain ability to his unit". This is an actual quote from the codex page 38.

If you feel that this does not mean "the unit he is with" then at no time does an IC give anything to a unit he is with when the rules tell you he does.

So no fearless SM squads with Chappys, eh?

Edit: again silly (Fact)

I know this isnt a faq or erratta, but it is from the GW email service:
(my email address removed, GW answers bolded)


Hello,
Answers to your questions are below.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

Games Workshop
Customer Service
6711 Baymeadow Drive Suite A
Glen Burnie MD 21060

Games Workshop Customer Service is open:
Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST

Contact info:
1-888-248-2335
custserv@games-workshop.com

Or visit us online at:
www.games-workshop.com



From: *********************
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:54 PM
To: askyourquestion
Subject: Ork Painboy Question

Hi,

If a warboss joins a unit of nobs with a painboy in it, will the painboy confer the Feel No Pain rule to the Warboss?
Yes.

Likewise, does Mad Doc Grotsnik confer FNP to a unit he joins?
Yes, that’s what ‘Dok’s Tools’ do.


If both are right, when an IC joins a unit, he is part of that unit, so anything applied to that unit (like from wargear or special abilities) is applied to the IC, but inherent special abilities are not?
Yes, unless it states otherwise.

fraustdemon wrote:I know this isnt a faq or erratta, but it is from the GW email service:
(my email address removed, GW answers bolded)


Hello,
Answers to your questions are below.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

Games Workshop
Customer Service
6711 Baymeadow Drive Suite A
Glen Burnie MD 21060

Games Workshop Customer Service is open:
Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST

Contact info:
1-888-248-2335
custserv@games-workshop.com

Or visit us online at:
www.games-workshop.com



From: *********************
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:54 PM
To: askyourquestion
Subject: Ork Painboy Question

Hi,

If a warboss joins a unit of nobs with a painboy in it, will the painboy confer the Feel No Pain rule to the Warboss?
Yes.

Likewise, does Mad Doc Grotsnik confer FNP to a unit he joins?
Yes, that’s what ‘Dok’s Tools’ do.


If both are right, when an IC joins a unit, he is part of that unit, so anything applied to that unit (like from wargear or special abilities) is applied to the IC, but inherent special abilities are not?
Yes, unless it states otherwise.

lol, got to love it

again this was at best a very silly argument to begin with (Fact)

frgsinwntr wrote:
Fortune is not a special rule the unit has BEFORE the character joins. It is a psychic power that affects the unit after he is part of it. This is a seperate issue and yes he benefits.

Though I've already posted above, lets apply this to the current argument against FNP working for the IC.

2 eldar units, with a farseer in each (unit A and unit B).
Unit A farseer casts fortune on unit B. By the wording of the Fortune rule: "This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes"
Farseer B wouldnt benefit because fortune doesnt say IC's benefit from the rule.

Now, using the argument that B would get the fortune because fortune wasnt there before the character joins is arguing an inherent special rule vs a granted special rule. neither of which have specific wording in the rulebook, and are the source of this confusion.

If the special rule isnt inherent (like a plague marines FNP), then it is likely applied only when applicable. Meaning a painboy applies FNP to his whole unit (including any IC's) as long as he's there, when the rule would normally apply (as in failed saves). And in the case of the quote above, when the unit fails a save and rerolls due to fortune.


than again i could be smoking something heavy and not realize it...but that's how my logic is running on this subject and I stand by it.

And on a side note. i play tyranids and necrons, and the only ork player i know is pretty spectacularly obnoxious...i'd love to make his life harder, but cant in this case.

padixon wrote:
How can you honestly not understand the words "confers Feel no Pain ability to his unit". This is an actual quote from the codex page 38.

If you feel that this does not mean "the unit he is with" then at no time does an IC give anything to a unit he is with when the rules tell you he does.

So no fearless SM squads with Chappys, eh? Page 58 space marine codex. It SAYS SPECIFICALLY he confers the ability to any unit he joins. SILLY is not reading the rules before posting something and trying to call my argument "silly" to win over people. Again this is an intelligent debate. I will refrain from calling names. If you can't, please stop posting things where you call things "silly "

Edit: again silly (Fact) FACT: you haven't provided a rules page to my question.

@padixon YOU are right! the unit does gain feel no pain! BUT! the warboss is not in the unit :( he joins it later. When he joins it the unit has a special rule correct? this special rule is FNP. according to the core rule book, unless the doc tools say it is confered to any ICs that join that IC does not gain the ability.

@fraustdemon
I can easily write something like that also. It has already been shown that when you write GW you get 10 different answers to 10 different questions. I called GW glen burnie last night and talked to Mike there and he agreed with my interpretation. 410 590 8675.
EDIT: I Just called. Jon spencer was not in so I talked to Eric. Eric agreed with my interpretation. The point is you can't go by this you need to provide a rules page where it SPECIFICALLY says that ICs that join the unit gain the ability

my point is UNLESS you can reference where it SPECIFICALLY says that ICs that join the unit gain the ability. They don't get it.

The Rules in the core rule book are very clear on this. If you reference the asterisk thing, scroll back and read my previous responses to that. I have highlighted this to make it clear. Please email him again as I am going to be sure to talk to him.

Also @ fraustdemon fortune is not a USR or a special rule for a given model and is not in question here. It works. If you want to start a thread on this go right ahead.

I'm just glad this is over

yes. It is over. Until a page where it SPECIFICALLY says that ICs that join the unit gain the ability can be found.

Read page 48 of the rulebook under "special rules". An IC who joins a unit does not confer the rule upon the unit, and vice-versa unless the rule specifies otherwise.

Nobs do not confer their ability to the boss. They Keep FNP but the boss does not get it.

frgsinwntr wrote:@padixon YOU are right! the unit does gain feel no pain! BUT! the warboss is not in the unit :( he joins it later. When he joins it the unit has a special rule correct? this special rule is FNP. according to the core rule book, unless the doc tools say it is confered to any ICs that join that IC does not gain the ability.

@fraustdemon
I can easily write something like that also. It has already been shown that when you write GW you get 10 different answers to 10 different questions. I called GW glen burnie last night and talked to Mike there and he agreed with my interpretation. 410 590 8675.

my point is UNLESS you can reference where it SPECIFICALLY says that ICs that join the unit gain the ability. They don't get it.

The Rules in the core rule book are very clear on this. If you reference the asterisk thing, scroll back and read my previous responses to that. I have highlighted this to make it clear. Please email him again as I am going to be sure to talk to him.

Also @ fraustdemon fortune is not a USR or a special rule for a given model and is not in question here. It works. If you want to start a thread on this go right ahead.

Listen, you are truly reading the rules right. Just applying them harsher than what GW intended (yes this in an opinion). Please read below for an explanation:

But there is a difference to a units innate ability (plague marines) and ones where they specifically apply to a "unit". As John has already pointed out (with the "Dok's Tools" are for quote). In which the dok's tools say "confers the FnP ability to his unit".

I honestly believe this all stems from the line "Unless specified in the rule itself..." You, Yakface, and some others believe this is to imply that any special rule *has* to say that it includes ICs in the rule itself.

When myself and others (to include John Spencer) see this as saying that any rule that apply the word "unit he is with" or any other variation of it, do include any attached characters sense they form 1 unit at any point they are attached.

IMHO, this will never get resolved (both sides agreeing on something) because of this different understanding of that one line.

@padixon

My point now that with the interpreting of the rules in this fashion it opens up things for a lot of abuse.

2 Examples:
1) There is an IC in the new marine dex that gives things scout yet he himself does not have scout. Should he gain it by joining a unit that does? Rules wise no he shouldn't.

2) A IC joining A snikrot unit can Ambush :(. This is just beardy but will be done if the rules are not followed to the word...

I don't really see this as "being harsh." More strictly going by the rules yes, but not harsh. But when you show up at a national tournament you will need to know the rules as written since you can't go by "my store interprets it this way" kind of arguments.

padixon wrote:
I honestly believe this all stems from the line "Unless specified in the rule itself..." You, Yakface, and some others believe this is to imply that any special rule *has* to say that it includes ICs in the rule itself.

This is true and the rule does have to say it.

padixon wrote:
IMHO, this will never get resolved (both sides agreeing on something) because of this different understanding of that one line.

Until it is FaQed which if it is done to either interpretation I will agree to and play with.

frgsinwntr wrote:
my point is UNLESS you can reference where it SPECIFICALLY says that ICs that join the unit gain the ability. They don't get it.

The Rules in the core rule book are very clear on this. If you reference the asterisk thing, scroll back and read my previous responses to that. I have highlighted this to make it clear. Please email him again as I am going to be sure to talk to him.

Also @ fraustdemon fortune is not a USR or a special rule for a given model and is not in question here. It works. If you want to start a thread on this go right ahead.

I understand the "*" meaning. Never an issue for me.

Pg 48: "...the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

The rule says nothing at all about abilities. It says Special Rules.

The ork unit does not have the special rule FNP. The Painboy is actively conferring it to whatever unit he is in, but it's not the unit's special rules. Yes, it's a universal special rule, but not the unit's special rule.

I'm looking in the Nobz entry in the Ork Codex. I dont see FNP under the Special Rules section. therefore FNP is not a special rule for the unit. Their special rules are Furious Charge, Mob Rule, Waagh!.

fraustdemon wrote:
I understand the "*" meaning. Never an issue for me.

Pg 48: "...the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

The rule says nothing at all about abilities. It says Special Rules.

You just rolled a

The docs tools say FNP ability. You do not have a FNP ability in your codex. There is no FNP ability in the core rules.

therefore nothing in the ork codex gets FNP. Unless of course can you provide me a page where there is a FNP ability description (read: not the FNP USR) since I have missed it?

I can play the word smithing game too. However this is not the point

frgsinwntr wrote:
The docs tools say FNP ability. You do not have a FNP ability in your codex. There is no FNP ability in the core rules.

therefore nothing in the ork codex gets FNP. can you provide me a page where there is a FNP ability description (read: not the FNP USR) since I have missed it?

I can play the word smithing game too. However this is not the point

I agree it's not the point. the point is it's not in the unit's special rules. the painboy is actively confering it to whatever unit he is in.

confering what? if its not the USR they aren't confering anything.

The rules for this are very clear.

The rules DO NOT mention where the rule comes from, only that the IC that joins a unit that has a USR (regardless of what provides the special rule) does not benefit from the special rule. UNLESS the rule SPECIFICALLY says so.

You have not provided me with a rules reference and your argument is getting weaker. Please don't waste any more of my time until there is a rules reference page that is specific

It's a USR, I'll agree to that all day long. However, it's not one of the unit's special rules.

then the unit does not have it.

You either have it or you don't.

Can you provide me with an example where a unit benefits from a USR and does not have the USR? Can you also give me a rules reason with page references as to why they would benefit?

I don't think you can...

fraustdemon wrote:It's a USR, I'll agree to that all day long. However, it's not one of the unit's special rules.

AND

fraustdemon wrote:
fraustdemon wrote:
I understand the "*" meaning. Never an issue for me.

Pg 48: "...the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

The rule says nothing at all about abilities. It says Special Rules.

WTF? you flip flopper! Pick an argument already! LOL!

Sorry thought this discussion needed to be a little more "light" so I added some humor

I agree with you on the FNP thing but dont get Snikkrot wrong there frgsinwntr.
Snikkrots Mob has a Ork Dex rule of infiltration. Read page 62 of the Ork Dex. So it seems to be possible to attach an IC to Snikkrots Mob and use his "ambush" special rule. That´s cheesy but even more cheesy would be the Zagstruk thing. Page 63. Zagstruk has a special kind of Deepstrike. So - following your point and I agree with you there - you are able to attach an IC lets say Ghazzie to make it really lame and gak.ty to Zagstruks Mob and deepstrike them. I´m pretty sure that´s not intended but because both Leaders have a Ork only special rule they provide it to any IC joining their mob correct? In the end codex > BGB and both special rules are dex only rules. Lame but possible it seems.

My apologies for not wording it consistantly. I'll try to do better in the future. Humor is fine, I dont mind, I'm not taking this terribly seriously, just a bit of distraction at work.

However, the tyranid biomorph scuttlers says: "Tyranids with the Scuttlers biomorph may Scout as described..."'
Whereas the feeder tendrils entry says: "A creature with feeder tendrils always counts as having the Preferred Enemy unit special rule."
Pages 33 and 32 respectively.

So a tyranid unit with scuttlers will not have the unit special rule scout, but have the ability to use scout. in relation to your post about having a USR but no USR. And precedence is set that if an ability is to become a units special rule then it will say it does (a matter of the game being permissive, it's not that way unless it says it is).


::edit::
My shift is over, I'll see you guys online tomorrow. Thanks for the entertaining discussion.

DaDok wrote:I agree with you on the FNP thing but dont get Snikkrot wrong there frgsinwntr.
Snikkrots Mob has a Ork Dex rule of infiltration. Read page 62 of the Ork Dex. So it seems to be possible to attach an IC to Snikkrots Mob and use his "ambush" special rule. That´s cheesy but even more cheesy would be the Zagstruk thing. Page 63. Zagstruk has a special kind of Deepstrike. So - following your point and I agree with you there - you are able to attach an IC lets say Ghazzie to make it really lame and gak.ty to Zagstruks Mob and deepstrike them. I´m pretty sure that´s not intended but because both Leaders have a Ork only special rule they provide it to any IC joining their mob correct? In the end codex > BGB and both special rules are dex only rules. Lame but possible it seems.

omg thats scarey :(

fraustdemon wrote: My apologies for not wording it consistantly. I'll try to do better in the future. Humor is fine, I dont mind, I'm not taking this terribly seriously, just a bit of distraction at work.

However, the tyranid biomorph scuttlers says: "Tyranids with the Scuttlers biomorph may Scout as described..."'
Whereas the feeder tendrils entry says: "A creature with feeder tendrils always counts as having the Preferred Enemy unit special rule."
Pages 33 and 32 respectively.

So a tyranid unit with scuttlers will not have the unit special rule scout, but have the ability to use scout. in relation to your post about having a USR but no USR. And precedence is set that if an ability is to become a units special rule then it will say it does (a matter of the game being permissive, it's not that way unless it says it is).

::edit::
My shift is over, I'll see you guys online tomorrow. Thanks for the entertaining discussion.

hmm let me read this... and respond...

You missed the as described on page 75 of the rule book. It references the USR section in the new rule book too so I don't see this as a problem.

NOW if you attached an IC to the unit he would not gain scout . In fact in this case both would lose the rule since it is marked with *. This is analogous to the nobz + warboss debate

Your comment about..

Fruastdemon - You make your points well and I wish I could annatate (Sp?) myself as well

... the SM HQ ( Cato Sicaruis) frigsinwntr surely proves the doc point. The option to give theses special rules (scouts, tankhunter, infiltrate etc) happens to one squad of tac marines which include the Cato. It will also happen to the good captain himself, As he wouldnt be able to infiltrate with as a non-infiltrator. Otherwise its foolish. So we assume he does.

It doesnt say anything about the good captain getting any kind of abilities/skills/feats/levels/FNP/USR's. Yet he has them. As do the especially trained tac squad. Because he is included with the unit. Now this will happen before the start of the game - the especially trained troopers will be phoned up etc, yes sir, to accompany the good captain.
Its all very obvious and clear cut without actually mentioning anything.

As is the Docs Tools with confer the FNP rule to the unit hes with. It mentions things, just like the above rule mentions things (which are obviously clear cut and less contented than the mad doc FNP shanannigans).

If you can target the IC when hes in the squad seperatley then fine. Wait, no? Hes part of the unit. Well then.

Broken things can come about from unique rules & funnily enough, these rules generally seem to be very similar to all these USR's that have * by thier names.

lol.. just realised that A: Cato sword is nasty, esp with a libarian w/ null zone & b: hes got FNP - thus bastardly hard.

Razerous wrote:Your comment about..

... the SM HQ ( Cato Sicaruis) frigsinwntr surely proves the doc point. The option to give theses special rules (scouts, tankhunter, infiltrate etc) happens to one squad of tac marines which include the Cato. It will also happen to the good captain himself, As he wouldnt be able to infiltrate with as a non-infiltrator. Otherwise its foolish. So we assume he does.

This shows that the Doc tools DO NOT work. Read below in orange.

It doesnt say anything about the good captain getting any kind of abilities/skills/feats/levels/FNP/USR's. Yet he has them. As do the especially trained tac squad. Because he is included with the unit. Now this will happen before the start of the game - the especially trained troopers will be phoned up etc, yes sir, to accompany the good captain.
Its all very obvious and clear cut without actually mentioning anything.


You are reading this incorrectly.

One unit in the army gains the ability, not one unit that has him joined to it. Please read it again. If he chooses to give them infiltrate, since he does not have infiltrate, and then joins this unit, both lose it. End of story. This is clear and is the perfect case for the * part of the rules people referenced earlier. It is a case where both would lose the ability. THEREFORE you do not join him to the unit so they can still infiltrate

As is the Docs Tools with confer the FNP rule to the unit hes with. It mentions things, just like the above rule mentions things (which are obviously clear cut and less contented than the mad doc FNP shanannigans).

Until you can reference a rules page...

If you can target the IC when hes in the squad seperatley then fine. Wait, no? Hes part of the unit. Well then.

Maybe you are having trouble reading the IC joining a unit with special rules part. the page has been referenced many times. It doesn't matter if he is part of the unit or not after he joins. He does not benefit from the special rules after he is part of it. Your point is not valid here as this does not address the core issue of whether or not he gains the ability of the unit which is ONLY given to the IC that joins if the rule specifically says so. No matter how you read it, the Docs tools do not say that IC joining the unit benefit from the rules.

lol.. just realised that A: Cato sword is nasty, esp with a libarian w/ null zone & b: hes got FNP - thus bastardly hard.

Razerous, do you have a rules page to support your argument? If not then no matter how you cut your argument, it is incorrect. I will again reference the page on ICs joining a unit with special rules.

I just cant read that technicoloured monstrosity.

As for Cato's interpratation - its pretty damned obvious whats intended. Was also going for the fact it lent support to non-specific mention of rules.

p48 (We all know it) of the BGB. Unless specified in the rule itself (then blah blah - no rule for the IC)

(p74 as a note - Codex takes presedence & * = bad no rules for anyone dissimiliar)

P75 FNP rule bit - No * (Okay. noted) It says blah blah blah

Oh look, Ork dex (which takes presedence (see p74)) Docs tools - applies to units blah blah.

There we go, lots of p.x numbers for you. Like I said earlier, is he apart of the unit or isnt he.

I received this reply from John Spencer:
1. Does an Ork Painboy grant Feel No Pain to a Warboss that joins the Painboys unit? If so, does this apply in CC?
Yes and yes.

2. Does a Waagh! Increase the WS of a Warboss that joins a unit of Nobz with such a banner?
Yes.

This is basic common sense. Any other interpretation is RAW fundamentalism and TFG behavior.

good.. I kinda just maybe wanted to break it down to mr frgsinwntr and give him those page referances he asked about.

I know its common sense. Does Cato get an inv? hes pretty nasty.

Razerous, you are attempting to seem nonchalant in order to seem like you know what you are talking about. Take your head out of your ... ego... and read what I am saying. You are not understanding my argument and this is why you are still arguing a point that doesn't matter.

Razerous wrote:I just cant read that technicoloured monstrosity.

As for Cato's interpratation - its pretty damned obvious whats intended. Was also going for the fact it lent support to non-specific mention of rules. One could argue anything was intended. You can only defend what is written.

p48 (We all know it) of the BGB. Unless specified in the rule itself (then blah blah - no rule for the IC)

(p74 as a note - Codex takes presedence & * = bad no rules for anyone dissimiliar)

P75 FNP rule bit - No * (Okay. noted) It says blah blah blah

Oh look, Ork dex (which takes presedence (see p74)) Docs tools - applies to units blah blah.

There we go, lots of p.x numbers for you. Like I said earlier, is he apart of the unit or isnt he.

NO.

1) you have have a unit with a special rule.
2) you are joining a IC to this unit.
3) the codex does not say anything about the rules for joining the warboss to the unit. you reference IC rules for this. IC rules say he does not get the rules
4) you double check the * thing and find that there is no *. This means that the ability is still given to the Unit not the IC.

He is part of the unit, but the IC rules state he does not benefit from the rules. I am not arguing the fact he is in the unit. The rules for IC joining the unit state that unless it is specifically mentioned that an IC gains the rules he does not get them. I am waiting for the rules reference which specifically states he receives the benefit. Yes you have mentioned many times that the unit gains FNP but this is not the argument. Please read what I am saying below.

Unless you can give me a rules page where it says that the boss specifically gets the benefit he does not. None of these pages say "the ability is confered to ICs that join this unit."

Razerous wrote:good.. I kinda just maybe wanted to break it down to mr frgsinwntr and give him those page referances he asked about.

I know its common sense. Does Cato get an inv? hes pretty nasty.

This is off topic. Please stay on topic

TO BE CLEAR You have not referenced a single page where it says that the FNP is confered to an IC that joins the unit.

You have however restated over an over again that the unit receives FNP and the docs tools rules. You do not understand my argument.

I am saying that according to the rules an IC that joins a unit, regardless of the fact he is part of that unit or not (this argument does not matter), DOES NOT benefit from the special rules of the unit he joins.

I know you want the boss to get FNP, It would be nice. I have a nob biker army myself. But this is not the case.

olympia wrote:I received this reply from John Spencer:
1. Does an Ork Painboy grant Feel No Pain to a Warboss that joins the Painboys unit? If so, does this apply in CC?
Yes and yes.

2. Does a Waagh! Increase the WS of a Warboss that joins a unit of Nobz with such a banner?
Yes.

This is basic common sense. Any other interpretation is RAW fundamentalism and TFG behavior.

Olympia

1) NO it does not. I called the GW glen burnie battle bunker and got the exact opposite answer. I referenced 2 names. Both gave the same answer as I am giving. I included the number in an above post.

2) yes, the waaagh banner does give the WS RAW because of the wording. It references MOB which is different then a UNIT. These two words are not interchangable.