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I'll tack on that using these tactics enabled me to place 9th out of LOTS at the Adepticon Championship this year...undefeated.

Can we see the full list?

Agreed. sour clams was trolling again.

Don't do that. It looks bad for you guys when two dudes with 40K Wrecking Crew banners in their sigs are trying to shout down one guy.

I'm not trying to pick sides here, I'm just saying, let sourclams and Deadshane make their points, we can judge who's right, who's wrong, and who's a troll.

They were both doing fine. You come rushing to Deadshane's aid it makes it look like you think he needs help.

If I'm being brutally honest I don't really think any LR have a place in any list if they're not being used to transport an assault unit.

I tend to agree, but I also think that Deadshane's points can still stand to some extent. You can sit a Raider in the backfield, shoot for a couple turns, then make a move late to claim an objective.

I had a guy do this to me the other day, and I simply didn't have anything for it. I drove up an Immolator full of Dominions, 4 Meltaguns didn't bring it down, then a Dread killed the Dominions. The Raider just wandered up to my objective, barfed a hundred Blood Claws on it, and the game was a draw.

What I'm suggesting, is that not only does the Land Raider sit back and hold your objective pretty well, but it's also got a pretty good capability to go grab the other one if things progress in that direction.

Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

I may not post many battle reports but I do know for a fact that landraiders have a tendency to either blow up very early in the game or go the distance of the game.

Anecdotal, but in a thread asking for battle reports, I'll report this: In my last two games I faced Land Raiders. In the last game it was Chaos, and the Raider died turn 2. In the one before that, it was Space Wolves, as I described above, and it lived the whole game.

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

sourclams wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

Thats just fuzzy math . I have had the same happen in my Ard boyz first round. faced 2 armies with 9 oblits and 12 turns of shooting only killed 2 landraiders. I was using 4 landraiders. Odds are just a number and any 40k rarely goes by math.

Great Tactica Deadshane!

Godhammers are great, but in my Deathwing I have 3 Laindraiders... 1 Godhammer, 2 Crusader...

I do have to agree on a point that landraiders are taxis for the most part. At least in my army they are. The Hurricane Bolters, Assault Cannon, and Multi-Melta are icing on the impenetrable fortress cake...

If you don't have to transport an assault oriented unit I think that Godhammers are probably the best option for the long-range firepower.

thehod wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

Thats just fuzzy math . I have had the same happen in my Ard boyz first round. faced 2 armies with 9 oblits and 12 turns of shooting only killed 2 landraiders. I was using 4 landraiders. Odds are just a number and any 40k rarely goes by math.

9*2/3*1/6*1/3 = 33% chance of all 9 Oblits unloading lascannons to kill 1 Land Raider in a single turn.

Multiply by 12 turns of shooting and 9 Oblits really only kill 4 Land Raiders total (excluding glances and attrition). Add in things like smoke, cover and Oblits dying, and 4 turns into 2 pretty easily. I'd say your results are about right. Everybody knows that lascannons are horrible at killing off AV14, and your opponents are silly to sit there and try to slug away at them. If those 3 Oblits had deep struck and used twin linked melta guns, it's quite likely that they would have accomplished more.

Odds represent the likelihood of something to happen at any given time, and in my experience people who laugh at the numbers don't really understand them.

To sum up, it seems like there are 4 camps in regards to Land Raiders:

Camp #1
The Land Raider is too expensive for what it does and is not worth taking.

Camp #2
The Land Raider is used to get assault units safely into combat. The protection and durability of a Land Raider, plus the ability to get assault units 12” move+2” Disembark+6” charge=20” is a valuable tool. The best Land Raiders for this role are LR Crusaders and Redeemers.

Camp #3
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can keep a cheap scoring unit safe from harm, and hold an objective that your opponent would be hard pressed to kill.

Camp #4
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can disembark an assault unit to counter-attack when your opponent gets too close to your firebase.

I am not rushing to Shane's aid. WC members don't slap each other on the back and rubber stamp what another member says. Shane and I have discussed our differences on opinion in regard to several issues here at Dakka such as NFW and the value of a power fist in a SM tactical squad.

G

It's true, they fight like an old married couple.

First off, Deadshane, I think this Tactica is awesome, and very needed. Space Marines have so many shiny new toys, it's easy to overlook one of the old standbys.

I can't speak from experience because my wallet is delaying my deployment but my idea to use a GHLR is as the tail end of a Land Raider Spearhead convoy.

A Redeemer in front, Crusader in the middle, and Godhammer in the back. I think I'm gonna call it the Pain Train. I can move the whole thing 12" and still crank out impressive fire, then unload 20 Terminators or equivalent when I pull into Damnation Station.

The Godhammer is perfect for this role, it lays down heavy AT fire on the move, and can reach out and love something from the other side of the board after it's delivered the payload. Standing alone in a void, nothing is win. But used correctly in a supporting role, the Godhammer has as much or more potential than any unit in the codex, IMHO.

Also, I'm not sure if you noted it or not, but the Assault Cannon actually poses a credible threat to AV14 from 24" away. Especially the twin-linked variety. I had my Redeemer gibbed this weekend by a Baal Predator that I let run around for too long.

-For the Mathists:
Lascannon - 1 shot - Hit on 3, Pen on 6 - 11% chance to Pen
Assault Cannon - 4 shots - Hit on 3, Pen on 6, 5 - 4% per shot for a total 16% chance to Pen

Both go up for twin linking, of course:
Lascannon - Hit on 3 (RR3+) (88%) - Pen on 6 = 14.66% chance to pen
Assault Cannon - Hit on 3 (RR3+) (88%) - Pen on 6, 5 - 4.88% per shot = 19.5% chance to Pen

I don't like the odds of an almost 20% penetration, even if that is pretty good rolling needed. With volume, anything is possible, and while you don't get the Melta bonus, you can be out of the range of move-Flamestorm attacks at max AC range.

sourclams wrote:

thehod wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

Thats just fuzzy math . I have had the same happen in my Ard boyz first round. faced 2 armies with 9 oblits and 12 turns of shooting only killed 2 landraiders. I was using 4 landraiders. Odds are just a number and any 40k rarely goes by math.

9*2/3*1/6*1/3 = 33% chance of all 9 Oblits unloading lascannons to kill 1 Land Raider in a single turn.

Multiply by 12 turns of shooting and 9 Oblits really only kill 4 Land Raiders total (excluding glances and attrition). Add in things like smoke, cover and Oblits dying, and 4 turns into 2 pretty easily. I'd say your results are about right. Everybody knows that lascannons are horrible at killing off AV14, and your opponents are silly to sit there and try to slug away at them. If those 3 Oblits had deep struck and used twin linked melta guns, it's quite likely that they would have accomplished more.

Odds represent the likelihood of something to happen at any given time, and in my experience people who laugh at the numbers don't really understand them.

You assumed that it was just lascannons but there were melta shots as well. Btw you are right about me not understanding formulas. I slept through my statistics class in college (didnt help it was at 8 am) . In the same token, those who look at the numbers then rely on numbers and not the situation. This is a game that cant be simplified down to numbers.

I have to do all Hod's math for him.



G

thehod wrote:
You assumed that it was just lascannons but there were melta shots as well. Btw you are right about me not understanding formulas. I slept through my statistics class in college (didnt help it was at 8 am) . In the same token, those who look at the numbers then rely on numbers and not the situation. This is a game that cant be simplified down to numbers.

Statistics inform your decision, they don't make the decision for you. Statistics are part of the situation, not something separate from it.

If the game hinges on me destroying two opposing Land Raiders in this turn, I want to know statistically what I need to bring to bear on each to accomplish that goal. Then I position my units accordingly.

Again, statistics just inform your decision. Not knowing statistics is like not knowing the strength of your weapon, not knowing the armor value of the opposing vehicle, and then shooting it anyway.

You have to know the stats for movement, simple as that. You have to move everything before you start shooting.

Knowing the odds means you know ~roughly~ what weight of fire will bring it down. This lets you inform your decisions during the movement phase. If you've never played an army that hinged on positioning, you might not understand this, but as so many people are getting mech and mobile, it's time to start paying attention. When you're extended into the enemy lines, you need to be efficient with your firepower. Bring too much fight, and you find yourself wasting potential and allowing a huge counterstrike. Bring too little, and you never accomplish your goals for the turn.

Statistics are for letting you, the general, understand when something is a potential game-breaker, and when it's a waste of time. I'll bet you use it more than you even realize. For instance, when was the last time you moved your 4 boltgun-armed marines to shoot at the frontplate of a charging Rhino?

Hopefully never, because math says Str 4 + 6 = 10 which is < FA 11. BUT, if you have a plasmagun and plasma pistol, of course you will, because you know Str 7 + 4 = 11, which means that half the time, you will at least glance it (rolling a 4 to glance, 5+ to pen).

See? Statistics just helped you understand correct target priority!

Math, it's what's for dinner. Oh, and bullets, can't forget the side of bullets.

Looks like this one has been beaten to death.

G

What I would love to see is what a 1500pt 3 Land Raider list would look like =D

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Deadshane1 wrote:
The predator can POTENTIALLY get 3 hits, now this tactica isnt going to go into numbers, but personally, I do not like to rely on chance or "hope" during a battle. You can essentially count on the Predator to get two hits with lascannons on a single target. However, the armour of the Predator, while considerable, is weaker, making it susceptable to a wider range of enemy firepower. More on this later, however, if your Predator is stunned its return fire will be NOTHING.

When you consider the LR, you have a VERY good chance of a solid 2 hits with lascannons.

The odds of three hits are pretty good. The odds of getting 2or3 hits is better than the odds of getting 2 with the LR. Why not go into numbers?

The LR's strength relative to the Pred is it's armour and PotMS, not it's weapons.

Tri-Las predator 24/36+24/36+32/36 = 2+8/36 (2 and a bit hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.15
Chance of 2 hits = 0.44
Chance of 3 hits = 0.40

GHLR has 32/36+32/36 = 1+28/36 (just under two hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.20
Chance of 2 hits = 0.79
Chance of 3 hits = 0

for between 1470-1500 you can get this

HQ

Grey Knight Grand Master

ELITE

Inquisitor and 2 Mystics-Dedicated Land Raider
Inquisitor and 2 mystics-Dedicated Land Raider

TROOPS

(5) Storm Troopers
(5) Storm Troopers

HEAVY

Grey Knight Land Raider
Grey Knight Land Raider
Grey Knight Land Raider




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
The predator can POTENTIALLY get 3 hits, now this tactica isnt going to go into numbers, but personally, I do not like to rely on chance or "hope" during a battle. You can essentially count on the Predator to get two hits with lascannons on a single target. However, the armour of the Predator, while considerable, is weaker, making it susceptable to a wider range of enemy firepower. More on this later, however, if your Predator is stunned its return fire will be NOTHING.

When you consider the LR, you have a VERY good chance of a solid 2 hits with lascannons.

The odds of three hits are pretty good. The odds of getting 2or3 hits is better than the odds of getting 2 with the LR. Why not go into numbers?

The LR's strength relative to the Pred is it's armour and PotMS, not it's weapons.

Tri-Las predator 24/36+24/36+32/36 = 2+8/36 (2 and a bit hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.15
Chance of 2 hits = 0.44
Chance of 3 hits = 0.40

GHLR has 32/36+32/36 = 1+28/36 (just under two hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.20
Chance of 2 hits = 0.79
Chance of 3 hits = 0

For 10 more points (that space marines ALWAYS spend on LR's anyway), the Land raider hits 3 times a turn. And it does so easier, and sometimes HARDER than the pred.

But, the pintle MM needs it to get into melta range. Staying outside that is the the GHLR's main strength.

For reference, odds of three hits (2xTLLC+MM) is 0.53

Since I already had my calculator out, chances of killing or immobilising vehicles:

Tri-Las pred
AV10 = 0.99
AV11 = 0.80
AV12 = 0.62
AV13 = 0.43
AV14 = 0.24

LR
AV10 = 0.79
AV11 = 0.64
AV12 = 0.49
AV13 = 0.35
AV14 = 0.20

Scott-S6 wrote:But, the pintle MM needs it to get into melta range. Staying outside that is the the GHLR's main strength.

For reference, odds of three hits (2xTLLC+MM) is 0.53

Since I already had my calculator out, chances of killing or immobilising vehicles:

Tri-Las pred
AV10 = 0.99
AV11 = 0.80
AV12 = 0.62
AV13 = 0.43
AV14 = 0.24

LR
AV10 = 0.79
AV11 = 0.64
AV12 = 0.49
AV13 = 0.35
AV14 = 0.20

Interesting, a LR has more of a chance to kill the Predator than the Predator DESIGNED to stop heavy tanks has to stop the LR or even keep it from firing back.

...and yes it SHOULD considering the add'l points you pay but it also retains the resiliancy and the transport capacity that the pred does NOT have.

The tri-las pred has better anti-armour firepower.

However, considering the difference in cost is not huge and the transport + armour + PotMS... In particular, there is a big difference in firepower when moving.

Tri-Las preds are over-costed - I wouldn't use them outside of 3K+ games. I have used a LRGH before although I have regretted it vs a Redeemer on a number of times. I've never taken a redeemer and wished it were a godhammer.

For what it's worth I think Deadshane is right about the utility of Phobos Pattern Land Raiders, and it's good to see him trying to figure out how to use them.

Deadshane1 wrote:Interesting, a LR has more of a chance to kill the Predator than the Predator DESIGNED to stop heavy tanks has to stop the LR or even keep it from firing back.

Well, if you're doing head-to-head comparisons then you have to factor in points cost... it'd be two Predators versus one Land Raider, which would put the Predators on top again.

Odds of either of them destroying each other is still pretty bad, though. It'd be a multi-turn slugging match, and the Land Raider *should* come out on top because it can keep driving forward until it comes into melta range, which would be a decisive advantage. Those are intagibles where theoretical modeling begins to fall apart.

And I'm pretty sure the Crusader with a MM outperforms the standard Land Raider in such a scenario anyhow.

Scott-S6 wrote: I've never taken a redeemer and wished it were a godhammer.

Wait till it gets immobilised in your backfeild.

Redeemers are horrible. (thats a personal opinion)

sourclams wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Interesting, a LR has more of a chance to kill the Predator than the Predator DESIGNED to stop heavy tanks has to stop the LR or even keep it from firing back.

Well, if you're doing head-to-head comparisons then you have to factor in points cost... it'd be two Predators versus one Land Raider, which would put the Predators on top again.

Odds of either of them destroying each other is still pretty bad, though. It'd be a multi-turn slugging match, and the Land Raider *should* come out on top because it can keep driving forward until it comes into melta range, which would be a decisive advantage. Those are intagibles where theoretical modeling begins to fall apart.

And I'm pretty sure the Crusader with a MM outperforms the standard Land Raider in such a scenario anyhow.

How ya figger, trigger?

Tri-Las Predator is 165-180 points depending on kit. Times two is ~ one hundred points more than the single Land Raider.

Though, on a side note, the LR can engage both targets at the same time, at least nominally.

Odds of 2 predators (120pts each TL lasCannon + extra armour) of killing one LR (250pts) ( 4/81, 4.9% each tank) (632/6561, 9.6% together)

Chance of a LR killing the predators (using POTMS to hit both of them) ( 8/81 each shot) (1232/6561, 18% kill at least one tank)(64/6561, 0.97% kill both tanks)

So ... LR is more likely to kill off at least one predator then its of being killed off. Without over analyzing which ever side gets off the first shots is more likely to win.


edit other version I forgot is ...
Odds of 2 predators (135pts each sponson TL lasCannon + extra armour) of killing one LR (275pts multi melta + extra armour) ( 1/27, 3.7% each shot) ( 74465/531441, 14% all together)
...

I run a BA list with 2 land raiders containing 2 5 man termie assualt squads, and more often then not my oppenents ignore the rest of my army until it is to late, then when they turn to deal with my assualt squads and land speeders the land raiders, which somehow survive that tank is tough to kill never mind with a brother, can start hitting targets of oppertunity. No my list is not top teir ultimate killy, so far i either tear apart my oppenent or things just go all bad for me right away, but it does work and it is fun, so I guess I am saying take 2 and your oppenent will have to deal with them, and with the amounts of hits those things can take, it will leave a lot of your other nasty units unmolested to get is and cause havok.

Blackmoor wrote:To sum up, it seems like there are 4 camps in regards to Land Raiders:

Camp #1
The Land Raider is too expensive for what it does and is not worth taking.

Camp #2
The Land Raider is used to get assault units safely into combat. The protection and durability of a Land Raider, plus the ability to get assault units 12” move+2” Disembark+6” charge=20” is a valuable tool. The best Land Raiders for this role are LR Crusaders and Redeemers.

Camp #3
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can keep a cheap scoring unit safe from harm, and hold an objective that your opponent would be hard pressed to kill.

Camp #4
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can disembark an assault unit to counter-attack when your opponent gets too close to your firebase.

And a 5th, the reason I use a standard Land Raider:

It is the only way a Grey Knights unit can threaten another heavy vehicle outside of close combat.

Also, those Lascannons are pretty nice at frying powerful characters with only Toughness 4 if the enemy doesn't have a lot of vehicles to worry about.

In hindsight there are only 3 Camps.

People in Camp #3 use it as a gun platform, and to use it either to house a cheap scoring unit, or a counter assault unit is both subsets of 3.

Mattlov wrote:

And a 5th, the reason I use a standard Land Raider:

It is the only way a Grey Knights unit can threaten another heavy vehicle outside of close combat.

Also, those Lascannons are pretty nice at frying powerful characters with only Toughness 4 if the enemy doesn't have a lot of vehicles to worry about.

You use it as a gun platform so you are in camp 3, although there are many Demonhunter players in Camp #2 like Centurian99 who use it to get their Grey Knights into assault.

Eh, if I played Daemonhunters I would play the Crusader variant every time (Not unlike vanilla Marines, although for different reasons). Can the DH players explain why they prefer the vanilla Raider over their Crusader?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Eh, if I played Daemonhunters I would play the Crusader variant every time (Not unlike vanilla Marines, although for different reasons). Can the DH players explain why they prefer the vanilla Raider over their Crusader?

Its simple the only place they can get any anti tank weapons is in the Heavy support section and that is only really two choices a vanilla LR or a Dreadnought