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oops I missed some posts sry some of my points have already been addressed.

@Spleenstabba:
1) like i said it was a stab in the dark, i hope i didnt offend you. I just notice certain themes in people's views that are similar to others. You and thor seem to think similarly to some of my athiest friends.
2)i mainly mentioned dolphins because i like the "hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" reference it opened up lol. But i dont think i need to reiterate my views on sentience. To each his own.
3)as far as majority rule, im usually not in agreement with the majority, however i think ideals like good and evil have common themes everyone can agree on, IE almost no one feels rape is'nt evil.
4) I do believe God is Omnipotent, omniprescent, omnibenevolent etc. but really this is more of a "feel" kinda thing, rather than something i can prove. If i could prove it, it would be causing quite a stir lol. That and like i said Ketara's got me between a rock and a hard spot, I'm still pondering the rock deal! lol

Im trying to stay on topic i swear guys! So why is it DE have more advanced tech than regular eldar? or am i misinterpreting this?

I don't think it's so much that Dark Eldar and Eldar are technologically far apart. They have similar tech that can create large creatures out of wraithbone (Talos and Wraithlord) They use nearly identical guns, and their armor is just about the same (actually scratch that last bit lol, I just looked up a warrior's armor save D: ). The only way they are REALLY different it seems is in how much they can use "the webway"

Think of the webway like, the internet. Some parts of it can be got onto by anyone who happens to have a computer, other bits require passwords, specialized computers and programs, ect. The Eldar still have access to the 'free' parts of the webway (warp spiders use it to jump in and out of combat) while the Dark Eldar have access to the more specialized bits (via the Webway portal device)

So it's not that either one has more tech than the other, they just have different tech.

OK, gotchya. so can the webway be hacked possibly? not literally but is it possible to stumble upon corroughmha? (man spelling fail fer sure!)

Both regular Eldar and Dark Eldar tech have evolved from the same base, that is to say, that of the Eldar empire from long ago.

However, their technologies have since evolved independantly due to the circumstances of each culture.

For example, Dark Eldar weaponry is designed to cause maximum pain. Regular splinter rifles shoot shards of sharpened metal, soaked in poison, as opposed to the Eldar shuriken rifles. They've also developed many technologies based around torture, and soul stealing, such as the crucible of malediction, which has tormented psyker souls sealed into it. The case of the webway gate is that it was probably designed independantly of the Eldar, as the Dark Eldar rely on the webway that much more for their existance.

The technology is not more complex, it simply evolved down different routes.

And as for the religous side, I have plenty more paradoxes like that. It's the downside to philosophical training. I must say though sir, I am impressed that you admit you can't answer it straight off in a dignified way. Most theists usually bluster nonsense instead. My respect for you has increased tenfold.

EDIT:

Think of the webway like, the internet. Some parts of it can be got onto by anyone who happens to have a computer, other bits require passwords, specialized computers and programs, ect. The Eldar still have access to the 'free' parts of the webway (warp spiders use it to jump in and out of combat) while the Dark Eldar have access to the more specialized bits (via the Webway portal device)

The Harlequins are the only ones who truly understand the webway. I presume they aided the Dark Eldar with the development of their webway tech.

Ketara wrote:And as for the religous side, I have plenty more paradoxes like that. It's the downside to philosophical training. I must say though sir, I am impressed that you admit you can't answer it straight off in a dignified way. Most theists usually bluster nonsense instead. My respect for you has increased tenfold.

The Harlequins are the only ones who truly understand the webway. I presume they aided the Dark Eldar with the development of their webway tech.

Well, since Most of my friends are either athiest or agnostic and all of em tend to be liberally minded, where as I'm the polar opposite of that, not to mention we all love arguing to kill time for some reason. I've learned to pick my battles carefully. Any good poker player knows when to fold em. In the past couple years i've learned it's best to give credit where credit is due when people make a good point, and concede defeat when defeated. That and now i can mull over the things you said, in my mind for a while challenging myself to come up with a logical answer. Me blundering nonsense just hurts Christian right wing wack-jobs everywhere! I must consider the plight of my people lol. Finally, as long as people respect my right to opinion, I happily return the favor.


Anyhoo, what happens when harlequins die? doesnt mention it on lex. Damn Ketara, Your a fountain of eldar fluff. I'd say my knowledge on them has double if not more so today.

@Norwulf don't worry you didn't offend me, I'm used to it by now, and I truly appreciate the concern that you had
and on your comment "To each his own", that's exactly the point I've been trying to make.

"And as for the religous side, I have plenty more paradoxes like that. It's the downside to philosophical training. I must say though sir, I am impressed that you admit you can't answer it straight off in a dignified way. Most theists usually bluster nonsense instead. My respect for you has increased tenfold."

Agreed and my respects as well.

Ok now I must say this I love discussions on Necron and Dark Eldar b/c as they have received so little love from GW they have so much potential for something new and different from the current norm of 40k and their mystery is what makes is them so damn interesting.

In regards to making Dark Eldar cooler, more apealing and therefore eventually more popular which is what I think they really need, they should take a look at the latest Dark Elf armybook, as someone who hates all things dark elves (some people hate dwarves or daemons I hate dark elves and ogres (that's in anything sci-fi or fantasy not just warhammer related) was amazed with the recent codex and even found stuff that looks cool (maybe some of this stuff I'm going to mention isn't as new as I thought but I just haven't seen it) The Dark Eldar armor in the 5th ed rule book looks infinitely better than what they have now and I think the new models should take a note from the Black Guard armor of the dark elves, making them more aesthetically pleasing is a huge step in making them more popular. warhammer online has also given me some good ideas. For example I always imagined dark eldar ships to look similar to this: http://images.mmosite.com/photo/2008/02/20/warhammers3788m04XQ36.jpg rather than what they have now:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1060031&prodId=prod1101797. Ik this is somewhat off topic but I think it needs to be brought up when talking about Dark Eldar damn they need a new codex and even though I hate them if I like the enough I may be even tempted to play them lol.

I think it's assumed that the Laughing God watches over them(except for the Harlequin that's chosen to play the role of Slaanesh in their little troupe. He gets his soul nommed). Don't quote me on that one though.

I've actually just uncovered a direct quote negating somehting I said earlier. The Dark Eldar DO possess more than one city! '....mighty Dark Eldar cities and nests of wasp like Psychneuein infest it's furthest reaches...'

That means that the Dark Eldar are actually multiplying and building more places to live in the Webway!

I've also found some fluff on the Exodites with regards to death. It appears they too wear spirit stones, and Exodite Worlds have massive barrows underground where their spirit stones are broken on altars after death. The Exodite spirit then becomes part of something called a 'World Spirit'. There's more detail on that in the Eldar codex.

Ketara wrote:
That means that the Dark Eldar are actually multiplying and building more places to live in the Webway!

I've also found some fluff on the Exodites with regards to death. It appears they too wear spirit stones, and Exodite Worlds have massive barrows underground where their spirit stones are broken on altars after death. The Exodite spirit then becomes part of something called a 'World Spirit'. There's more detail on that in the Eldar codex.

The first part here really plays into GW making a new DE codex, perhaps some new models for em? *cough cough HACK cough GW snatch this up! Cough*

The "world spirit" part is very elfin. I like that.

Ketara wrote:As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

For the record - the are a few correct answers in defense of Theism to the rock question. They basically can be summed up as thus;

Remember that omnipotence is 'infinite power' and not the ability to 'do 'anything'. God Himself is open and clear about His limitations (for instance He cannot lie or commit sin). God also cannot, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore He cannot make a rock He cannot lift, because He is infinite and it is not possible to make a material object infinitely big enough to resist the ultimate infinite of God.

It is the same reason He cannot make a round triangle - it is logically impossible to do this irrespective of one's omnipotent resources of power. He probably could choose to abolish all current natural laws and redefine them so as to create a world where the paradox is no longer a paradox, but He would not choose to do this due to his omnibenevolance. Neither paradox precludes the possible existence of a supreme being.

Thor665 wrote:

Ketara wrote:As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

For the record - the are a few correct answers in defense of Theism to the rock question. They basically can be summed up as thus;

Remember that omnipotence is 'infinite power' and not the ability to 'do 'anything'. God Himself is open and clear about His limitations (for instance He cannot lie or commit sin). God also cannot, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore He cannot make a rock He cannot lift, because He is infinite and it is not possible to make a material object infinitely big enough to resist the ultimate infinite of God.

It is the same reason He cannot make a round triangle - it is logically impossible to do this irrespective of one's omnipotent resources of power. He probably could choose to abolish all current natural laws and redefine them so as to create a world where the paradox is no longer a paradox, but He would not choose to do this due to his omnibenevolance. Neither paradox precludes the possible existence of a supreme being.

hmmm, couldnt have put it better myself.

Thor665 wrote:

Ketara wrote:As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

For the record - the are a few correct answers in defense of Theism to the rock question. They basically can be summed up as thus;

Remember that omnipotence is 'infinite power' and not the ability to 'do 'anything'. God Himself is open and clear about His limitations (for instance He cannot lie or commit sin). God also cannot, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore He cannot make a rock He cannot lift, because He is infinite and it is not possible to make a material object infinitely big enough to resist the ultimate infinite of God.

It is the same reason He cannot make a round triangle - it is logically impossible to do this irrespective of one's omnipotent resources of power. He probably could choose to abolish all current natural laws and redefine them so as to create a world where the paradox is no longer a paradox, but He would not choose to do this due to his omnibenevolance. Neither paradox precludes the possible existence of a supreme being.

Aha! The traditional comeback. However, rather than getting into the 4 different levels of omnipotence, and making this thread ridiculously complex, I'll cede that one, and instead propose a few more.

-If God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent, then how can his creations be anything less than "All Good", "All Powerful", and "All Loving". If they are less than this, how can he be said to be Omnibenevolent?

-If God is Omnibenevolent and Omnipotent, being able to single handedly create all possible "good" states, then how can he withhold that power from us?

If there is good, then there MUST be evil. For without the balance between these two there only 'is'.

(Am I just blustering or what? ^.^)

Anywho, it seems strange that people think of god as a 'person'. Would he not be more akin to a force?
(Karma = Gravity???)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, where does it mention that DE are 'growing'?

Emperors Faithful wrote:
BTW, where does it mention that DE are 'growing'?

Of course DE are growing, Hell (Commoragh) is exothermic.

Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, We postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave.

Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. Two options exist:

If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.
If hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.
So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...Thus, hell is exothermic."

Prediction as to when this thread will be locked?

Ketara wrote:Aha! The traditional comeback. However, rather than getting into the 4 different levels of omnipotence, and making this thread ridiculously complex, I'll cede that one, and instead propose a few more.

-If God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent, then how can his creations be anything less than "All Good", "All Powerful", and "All Loving". If they are less than this, how can he be said to be Omnibenevolent?

-If God is Omnibenevolent and Omnipotent, being able to single handedly create all possible "good" states, then how can he withhold that power from us?

If you're familiar with the traditional comeback above then I suspect you are equally familiar with the traditional comeback to the Epicurean Paradox. Needless to say - there's a correct Theism answer to these as well. There's a reason that people still believe in the God of Classical Theism and that's because their belief system has not had a question proposed to it that they could not answer within the framework of that belief system.

kuro_khan wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
BTW, where does it mention that DE are 'growing'?

Of course DE are growing, Hell (Commoragh) is exothermic.

Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, We postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave.

Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. Two options exist:

If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.
If hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.
So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...Thus, hell is exothermic."

ROFL!! So wait, your saying Commorragh is hell? and that they could be expecting cold weather soon? or really hot weather? This "Theresa" may have just successfully destroyed the dark eldar!! (unless they start stocking up on air conditioners)

@Ketara: I think giving your creations free will to choose between benevolence and manevolence is the ultimate in omnibenevolence. (if that makes any sense to anyone other than me)

Thor665 wrote:

Ketara wrote:Aha! The traditional comeback. However, rather than getting into the 4 different levels of omnipotence, and making this thread ridiculously complex, I'll cede that one, and instead propose a few more.

-If God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent, then how can his creations be anything less than "All Good", "All Powerful", and "All Loving". If they are less than this, how can he be said to be Omnibenevolent?

-If God is Omnibenevolent and Omnipotent, being able to single handedly create all possible "good" states, then how can he withhold that power from us?

If you're familiar with the traditional comeback above then I suspect you are equally familiar with the traditional comeback to the Epicurean Paradox. Needless to say - there's a correct Theism answer to these as well. There's a reason that people still believe in the God of Classical Theism and that's because their belief system has not had a question proposed to it that they could not answer within the framework of that belief system.

Unfortunately, some of the traditional comebacks are not always so straightforward, and it's a matter of opinion as to whether they answer the question or not. But again, for complexities sake, I'd rather not get into a long winded debate of that variety. However, there has always been one ultimate question about the existence of God which Theism has yet to answer satisfactorily, and it is not one the relies on clever wordplay.

If God is intangible, and incorporeal, prove he exists. And by proof, definitive proof is required, such as a live demonstration of his omnipotence etc. Telling me that the world, my existence, and so on is a mark of his omnipotence is not a viable answer. Give me a reason that I cannot use to prove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti monster.

And it says that there are multiple Dark Eldar cities in the Eldar Codex. As Commorragh was initially the only city, if there are now more cities, it must follow that there must now be more people in order to poulate them. Hence, the Dark Eldar population is on the increase.

Thor, I'm intrigued enough to enquire as to where you studied philosophy? Or is it just a passing interest of yours?

I took it to PM to spare Obsidian's sensibilities via the focus of the thread.

As far as philosophy - self taught and self entertained (outside of one high school course). It's an amazing topic and infinite fun to read about and study.

FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER FOR THE WIN!!!!!

How bout we stop talking about some imaginary sky daddy and get back to talking about some evil imaginary space elves!?!

I for one would like to know if wyches get maternity leave. And if crack babies are bad, what would combat drugs do? Are they born ninjas?

gardeth wrote:FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER FOR THE WIN!!!!!

How bout we stop talking about some imaginary sky daddy and get back to talking about some evil imaginary space elves!?!

I for one would like to know if wyches get maternity leave. And if crack babies are bad, what would combat drugs do? Are they born ninjas?

Yes, they are born ninjas, thats what happened to me. Seeing as how the dark eldar are especially cruel, i bet they get.... UNPAID maternity leave! MUHUHAHAHAAA

I just accidently the entire Dark Eldar race.

Ok, I'm going to answer this question specifically

Deathbot wrote:How do the Dark Eldar maintain their population? They are taking constant casualties from their raids, not to mention the 24/7 backstabbing and murdering that goes on in their society. To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

Firstly, when a mummy DE and a daddy DE meet randomly. . And a DE baby is born. This DE baby would be raised by mummy DE for a time, but not for long, as she either dies in battle, dies from treachery or abandons baby for assorted reasons, such as fighting or another DE baby.

The DE baby would be given to, or be part of because of mummy DE a cult/kabal and would pick up a simple weapon, such as a slightshot, or IG Las. And learn how to use it.

The DE baby would eventually grow to maturity, and go fight, or make more DE baby.

That, or DE baby come in litters. The rest would be the same.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
That, or DE baby come in litters. The rest would be the same.

Someone did say they like rabbits, so that makes sense.

Norwulf wrote:

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
That, or DE baby come in litters. The rest would be the same.

Someone did say they like rabbits, so that makes sense.

Don't cats have more babies than rabbits?

I just checked, Rabbits usually have 12-13 . Much more than cats, by about 9... "OTL

12-13 DE baby per month is good, and they don't all have to have the same father, score for DE mummy

So probably 3 are going to reach maturity if they're lucky...

Fun fact: rabbits have 2 widdly-doos. (just checked, i was thinkin sharks)

Maybe that's how the DE are keepin their numbers up?

Deathbot wrote:How do the Dark Eldar maintain their population? They are taking constant casualties from their raids, not to mention the 24/7 backstabbing and murdering that goes on in their society. To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

That same problem exists with the dark elves of the D&D world. If they are killing eachother every day, and it takes decades for a child to grow to maturity, then the race goes extinct very quickly.

In the D&D world, it means that the resurrection buisness does very well.

In the 40k universe, it means that the raids and murderous backstabbing are a lot less common than one would think. After all, they do need eachother to get more slaves.

So mabye there's a in-clan type program? Where the kids are raised to be loyal to that particular kabal?

labmouse42 wrote:

Deathbot wrote:How do the Dark Eldar maintain their population? They are taking constant casualties from their raids, not to mention the 24/7 backstabbing and murdering that goes on in their society. To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

That same problem exists with the dark elves of the D&D world. If they are killing eachother every day, and it takes decades for a child to grow to maturity, then the race goes extinct very quickly.

In the D&D world, it means that the resurrection buisness does very well.

In the 40k universe, it means that the raids and murderous backstabbing are a lot less common than one would think. After all, they do need eachother to get more slaves.

I had thought maybe there was something similar goin on in 40k.