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Lash isnt terrible, but man are people on here blowing it out of proportion.
First off, theres the mech argument. Im not going to go into it because its already been said.
Second, it means your Prince is T5. Mark of Nurgle is important on DPs because it cuts down half of their wounds to small arms fire. 5s to wound with a 3+ armour save because hes T5 is not hard to get through at all. Considering lash is 24", that means youre going to be within bolter fire.
If he puts it on a sorceror, that means A) hes not using a prince or B) is now using 2 HQs which means less troops where CSM shines.
Third, warptime is better because it can be combined with T6. The Prince becomes a hand to hand beast whereas a lash prince is solely a giant lasher flying around the board, getting into small arms/CC range.
If lash had a 48" range then it would be better, but the fact is you have a T5 3+ save monstrous creature (easy to hit, barely any cover saves especially if shooting) coming at you.
Actually, it's not 'absurdly wrong' at all to say that 5 PMs are more survivable than 10 tacticals, at least to ap3+ weaponry.
It's simple. Thanks to FNP, the PMs immediately take half as many wounds as the tacticals. Therefore it takes twice as many shots. So, the same number of wounds are needed to kill 5 pms as 10 tac marines.
Then, you factor in t5. Yep, that's right, it's harder to wound plague marines. So, to get the same number of wounds on plague marines as tacticals, you need more hits. Needing more hits to down 5 PMs than 10 tacticals means that they are, in fact, more survivable.
Also, before you say 'I would just shoot them with ap2 or s8+ weaponry, you said yourself that all anti-infantry firepower goes onto any squad out of their transport. So you're shooting with similar weapons at each unit. AND the PMs are easier to get cover saves from since it's a smaller unit. Which also means less hits from Large Blast weapons/flamers. AND they have defensive grenades if they get charged.
So how is it absurd? I'd like to see some reasoning from you rather than sweeping statements.
The Battle Report Master wrote:i had a freind come round a few weeks ago to have a 40k apocalpocalpse game i was guards men he was space maines.... my first turn was 4 bonbaonbardlements... jacobs turn to he didnt have one i phased out.
This space for rent, contact Gwar! for rights to this space.
Tantras wrote: Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW?
Remember that a Chaos rhino can be armed with a pintle mounted combi melta. So you could have two meltagung and two combi-meltas. A squad of Plague Marines is much better than a squad of tactical Marines. First you can take any number you want while you must field 10 Marines to have access to the meltagun and multi-melta. I would much rather have two meltaguns as compared to a meltagun and a multi-melta. The game is much more dynamic now and units that can't move in order to fire their weapons are often detrimental.
Five Plague Marines is much more survivable as compared to ten tactical Marines plus they are cheaper. Five is the perfect number for a PM squad.
Let the Galaxy Burn
...errata aren't rules, they are corrections of typos.
Like other have said:
Plague marines are tough, and they are more survivable that Tacs provided it's not Str 8, AP1/2, or always ignores armor saves.
So there are weapons that kill plague marines well, but chances are they are weapons that are also use to kill tanks and terminators.
Tacticals can get mulitmeltas true, that doesn't make it 'better' than CSMs.
If you shoot with the MM in the rhino, it means the rhino is stationary.
In addition you MUST purchase the 10 man squad for it.
Again, they are different shooting potentials, it's inaccurate to say one is better than the other.
Tacs get a nice 24" meltas...CSM/plague marines get double the special weapons.
Again... lash is not something to rely on, people who use Chaos well know that.
To assume the whole list depends on it is not constructive.
Lash is cheap enough to throw in and take whatever comes of it.
Daemon Princes are flexible in that they can perform a role you kit them out to do.
I generally run Spartan Princes, princes with only wings and their only role is to add to Target Saturation. Cheap, threatening to infantry and armor, and EXPENDABLE.
Now if I was expanding the list and I had 25-50 points remaining with no where to put it, lash would be the easiest and most flexible option I could add.
Basically, not everyone runs mech, and it abuses non-mech pretty hard.
If it is a mech army, in most cases, something will eventually come out of their metal boxes whether voluntarily or not.
My 7 Cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS @Afrikan Blonde
7 is the perfect number for Nurgle......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/18 19:20:21
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Sanctjud wrote:Why do tactical marines do shooting out of a rhino better? CSM can get a special weapon and combi weapon at 5 models in a rhino..
Tacticals get a multi-melta.
A multimelta has a 24" range and can't move and shoot. Not at all hard to stay out of range.
Fetterkey wrote:
PanamaG wrote:All for five models, and five PMs are more survivable than 10 tactical marines too.
Absurdly wrong.
This statement alone exemplifies you patent lack of understanding of the mechanics of the game. In terms you can understand: You don't know what you are talking about.
5 plague marines are much more survivable than 10 tacticals.
In an earlier post I pointed out that slapping a squad of 7 on an objective on turn 5 or 6 will lock that objective and all you can hope for is to contest. You said that was wrong as well. How, pray tell, do you dislodge 7 plague marines from an objective in 1 turn? It is the bottom of 5, so your resources are limited and you still have oblits and most likely one prince on the board in addition to multiple other pm squads.
You really do not understand how a well built lash list works, and your ignorance of the facts leads you to jump to incorrect conclusions.
Sure, a nurgle prince is more survivable. I am not taking the lash prince to fight, I am taking him to lash. If any unit other than the one being lashed can see him, then it is an error on the lash players side. It can be beat - any list can be beat. In an all comers environment, it is solid against anything that hits the table. Lah is not broken, and it is not goign to win anything by itself. Lash+PM+Oblits will win far more than it loses.
Dual lash is one of the top three builds going right now, and it is called dual lash for a reason. It isn't oblit spam, it isn't pm spam, it is dual lash.
On a side note - at 2000 and more I take winged sorcerers for lashing and ride them with the plague marines. If the squad gets in real trouble, I fly over and join another squad. The lash mechanic is solid in that build as well.
Orkestra wrote:Actually, it's not 'absurdly wrong' at all to say that 5 PMs are more survivable than 10 tacticals, at least to ap3+ weaponry.
It's simple. Thanks to FNP, the PMs immediately take half as many wounds as the tacticals. Therefore it takes twice as many shots. So, the same number of wounds are needed to kill 5 pms as 10 tac marines.
Then, you factor in t5. Yep, that's right, it's harder to wound plague marines. So, to get the same number of wounds on plague marines as tacticals, you need more hits. Needing more hits to down 5 PMs than 10 tacticals means that they are, in fact, more survivable.
This is technically correct but imprecise. Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at. Further, against powerful anti-infantry weapons, Plague Marines are just as resilient as Tactical Marines, but have less models, and can thus be crippled more easily. Plague Marines are also significantly worse against strong assault units.
Orkestra wrote:Also, before you say 'I would just shoot them with ap2 or s8+ weaponry, you said yourself that all anti-infantry firepower goes onto any squad out of their transport. So you're shooting with similar weapons at each unit. AND the PMs are easier to get cover saves from since it's a smaller unit. Which also means less hits from Large Blast weapons/flamers. AND they have defensive grenades if they get charged.
So how is it absurd? I'd like to see some reasoning from you rather than sweeping statements.
Many armies have anti-infantry firepower that negates the chief advantage of Plague Marines. Imperial Guard is probably the best example here.
Since I saw this thread was still going, so I figured I'd post some Youtube fun. Just to remain on topic, yeah, Lash is beatable, but you see it a lot for a reason: it generally works pretty well. Give it to an average player and it can boost the performance of their army. Give it to a veteran who really knows how to use it, and it just becomes nasty (but still beatable). And a 7-man Plague Marine Squad with MGx2 costs 6 points more than a 10 Man Tactical with MG and MM, but will last significantly longer to most weaponry out there and allows you to perform better drive-bys.
Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
Lets say 10 wounds are rolled.
Each plague marine takes 2 saves.
Each tac takes 1 save.
Plague marines are twice as durable to small arms.
Tacs are not.
It ends up being the same chance to lose something special after all saves are applied.
But PMs are tougher vs. small arms... so less wounds would apply, Cēterīs paribus with respect to the enemy shooting.
_____________________
Give us an example of powerful anti-infantry weapons. Do you mean special weapons or the bog standard weapons?
I don't know of any standard infantry weapons that are both str 7+ and Ap 2 and below...
If we are talking about special weapons like plasma guns, than yes, plague marines die as fast as tacticals and are not as great with a low number.
BUT, it's a plasma gun that's not going at your: daemon princes, rhino's, other infantry, oblits...in addition cover saves are abundant.
In addition against strong assault units.... neither will do well, BUT, will Tactical marines deny the charges their charge attacks.......no.
My 7 Cents.
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Wow have you ever played 40k before? Do the mathhammer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fetterkey wrote:
This is technically correct but imprecise. Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at.
This has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with how survivable the UNIT is!!!
Plague Marines are just as resilient as Tactical Marines, but have less models, and can thus be crippled more easily. Plague Marines are also significantly worse against strong assault units.
Yeah because blight grenades give your opponent +1 attack.
I dont think the OPs blatant ignorance is as frustrating as how right he thinks he is.
Oh my god only on Dakka. The OP so far has said:
Eldar are better than CSM Warptime is better than Lash
FORTUNE is better than lash!
Tac marines with T4 3+ are more survivable than Plague Marines with T5 3+ FNP!
Theres nothing wrong with not knowing what you are talking about but its just so hilarious that you think you are correct!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
Sanctjud wrote:Why do tactical marines do shooting out of a rhino better? CSM can get a special weapon and combi weapon at 5 models in a rhino..
Tacticals get a multi-melta.
A multimelta has a 24" range and can't move and shoot. Not at all hard to stay out of range.
Fetterkey wrote:
PanamaG wrote:All for five models, and five PMs are more survivable than 10 tactical marines too.
Absurdly wrong.
This statement alone exemplifies you patent lack of understanding of the mechanics of the game. In terms you can understand: You don't know what you are talking about.
5 plague marines are much more survivable than 10 tacticals.
In an earlier post I pointed out that slapping a squad of 7 on an objective on turn 5 or 6 will lock that objective and all you can hope for is to contest. You said that was wrong as well. How, pray tell, do you dislodge 7 plague marines from an objective in 1 turn? It is the bottom of 5, so your resources are limited and you still have oblits and most likely one prince on the board in addition to multiple other pm squads.
You really do not understand how a well built lash list works, and your ignorance of the facts leads you to jump to incorrect conclusions.
Sure, a nurgle prince is more survivable. I am not taking the lash prince to fight, I am taking him to lash. If any unit other than the one being lashed can see him, then it is an error on the lash players side. It can be beat - any list can be beat. In an all comers environment, it is solid against anything that hits the table. Lah is not broken, and it is not goign to win anything by itself. Lash+PM+Oblits will win far more than it loses.
Dual lash is one of the top three builds going right now, and it is called dual lash for a reason. It isn't oblit spam, it isn't pm spam, it is dual lash.
On a side note - at 2000 and more I take winged sorcerers for lashing and ride them with the plague marines. If the squad gets in real trouble, I fly over and join another squad. The lash mechanic is solid in that build as well.
This guy knows his gak!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2009/09/18 20:04:06
Plague marines will survive better to basic arms fire and basic CC attacks, but thats really it.
Anything AP2 or below kills them better.
Anything Strg 8 or higher kills them better.
Any S7 shots will kill them just as good.
Power Weapons will annihilate them.
So if you look at, lets just say the other units in the CSM book -
Daemon Princes
Lord
Sorceror
Terminators
Dreadnought
Any infantry with a fist
Dreadnoughts
Defilers (CC and battlecannon)
Vindicators
Any other heavy support with lascannons (which is essentially all of them)
They will all kill 5 plagues better than 10 tacticals marines... aside from maybe basic infantry in CC due to defensive nades.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/09/18 20:20:27
Fetterkey wrote:This is technically correct but imprecise. Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at.
This has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with how survivable the UNIT is!!!
Haha, no thanks. Go read the wound allocation rules and get back to me.
PanamaG wrote:Eldar are better than CSM
Yes.
PanamaG wrote:Warptime is better than Lash
Against mech, yes.
PanamaG wrote:FORTUNE is better than lash!
Absolutely.
PanamaG wrote:Tac marines with T4 3+ are more survivable than Plague Marines with T5 3+ FNP!
Individual Tacs obviously aren't more survivable, but 10-man Tac squads are more survivable than 5-man Plague Marine squads.
Inigo Montoya wrote:
5 plague marines are much more survivable than 10 tacticals.
Heh. Sorry, no.
Inigo Montoya wrote:
In an earlier post I pointed out that slapping a squad of 7 on an objective on turn 5 or 6 will lock that objective and all you can hope for is to contest. You said that was wrong as well. How, pray tell, do you dislodge 7 plague marines from an objective in 1 turn? It is the bottom of 5, so your resources are limited and you still have oblits and most likely one prince on the board in addition to multiple other pm squads.
Through using the same simplistic "tactics" that remove any other infantry unit in the game from an objective? It's not like Plague Marines are a real special case.
If plague marines are attracting str 8 weapons THAT IS GOOD with respect to target saturation.
AP2/1 hurts them well enough, you cover saves are easy to get, and it's only str 7+ that doesn't care about T5.
Power weapons: it depends...if it's 3 attacks at str 4 it's not too bad.
Again, highly dependent....... I would gladlly take charges from Banshees...and they are all equipped with power weapons...
Fists kills almost all infantry equally.
Lord: depends, if a DW he can wreck house or kill himself, and has to pay for a joe power weapon.
Dp/Sorc: nasty with warptime and/or wind.
Termies: yup, but str 4 is kinda meh.
Dread: if it doesn't lose the DCCW first.
Defilers/vindi: nasty as well.
But those are pretty lethal things already.
___________________________________________
If you look at it from this angle:
It almost requires these hvy duty kits/guns/units to take them out... that is an advantedge already.
If anything Plague marines are roughly a point undercosted.
My 7 Cents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/18 20:51:22
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Sanctjud wrote:If plague marines are attracting str 8 weapons THAT IS GOOD with respect to target saturation.
AP2/1 hurts them well enough, you cover saves are easy to get, and it's only str 7+ that doesn't care about T5.
Depends on what army they're facing.
Sanctjud wrote:
If anything Plague marines are roughly a point undercosted.
Sure they are. But undercosted doesn't mean unstoppable-- just look at Vendettas. PMs are easy to take out with the right weapons, and easy to neutralize with the right tactics.
If you look at it from this angle:
It almost requires these hvy duty kits/guns/units to take them out... that is an advantedge already.
If anything Plague marines are roughly a point undercosted.
My 7 Cents.
The argument is 10 tacticals vs 5 plague marines in terms of survivability. Everything I listed will kill the 5 plagues faster, even infantry with fists because there are less targets (though again, defensive nades may balance this, I dont feel like calculating). Less targets also means less attacks back, so while you may draw basic attacks out longer (at I3 as well), you arnt really dishing out as much back either, as every death on the plague side is essentially 2 marines on the tactical side offensively (which is great except when youre outnumbered 2:1 anyways).
The units I listed are pretty much every viable non troop unit CSM has, so its not unrealistic. Even the junky lord will hit plagues harder.
Night Lords wrote:.....Any S7 shots will kill them just as good.
...
Power Weapons will annihilate them...
Eh, S7 won't do anything unless it's also AP2. You'd need more than 6 BS3 autocannons to kill off just 1 Plague Marine.
Power weapons are also something that has a lot of trouble versus PMarines. Your average sergeant-type character will do less than one wound to a Plague Marine (roll a 4+, roll a 5+, three chances to do it).
OP wrote:Sure they are. But undercosted doesn't mean unstoppable-- just look at Vendettas. PMs are easy to take out with the right weapons, and easy to neutralize with the right tactics.
"Tactics" really doesn't do much to plague marines. The right weapons, sure, and protecting those weapons, doubly sure, but "tactics" like tank shocking or getting them caught up in a sweeping advance or torrent of fire or escorting them off the table... that stuff doesn't really work because they're such a solid rock unit.
Sure they are. But undercosted doesn't mean unstoppable-- just look at Vendettas. PMs are easy to take out with the right weapons, and easy to neutralize with the right tactics.
This is the strength of Plague Marines. Yes, they die easily if you use specific tactics and weaponry designed to kill Plague Marines. But that's the point, isn't it? They require you to use special tactics and weapons against them. The same special weapons that work well against your Daemon Princes and your Oblits. Would you rather have a unit of infantry that takes the nasty hits instead of your other valuable units, or a unit of infantry that can die easily to small arms fire.
Hmmm, which one is better?
Maybe I'm just not playing fetterhammer, but I'd rather have cheaper models (PMs) soak those plasma hits instead of my Oblits.
Also, any assault unit that can wreck 5 PMs can wreck 10 tacticals. If they're, say, TH/SS terms, then great! they wipe out the whole squad on their turn and get plasma cannons in the face because the oblits are still alive (thanks to all the weapons you used to specifically kill the PMs). Whereas they might not wipe the whole 10 tacticals, and will be safe in combat.
The Battle Report Master wrote:i had a freind come round a few weeks ago to have a 40k apocalpocalpse game i was guards men he was space maines.... my first turn was 4 bonbaonbardlements... jacobs turn to he didnt have one i phased out.
This space for rent, contact Gwar! for rights to this space.
Tantras wrote: Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW?
@Fetterkey:
What?
How does target saturation and claiming cover saves depend on what army I'm facing?
I do it versus all armies.
I never said underpointed = unstoppable, you said that, not me.
Vendettas shooting Plague marines...
Serious? Plague marines are way second in line to shooting armor, and if Vendettes are reduced to shooting plague marines, then go ahead... it's only 3 shots from each vendette that's a lascannon and cover saves are gold vs. that stuff.
@Night Lords:
I did not disagree with you on most of the units you listed.
I'm just saying it's an advantage if the plague marines are getting that kind of attension as opposed to other things.
I was not discussing the durability issue, I was talking about a specific point of view in which the attension of all of the stuff that's good at killing them are the high damage quality stuff.
How do I rephrase it.
It's nice...for a unit that requires stuff that kill everything equally to kill them, as opposed to small arms.
I'm at a loss for words to describe it, but it wasn't about the durability issue at the point you quoted Night Lords...I've editted the post to put a line between it.
My 7 Cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: Orkestra said what I wanted to say.
Thank you to you for putting your thoughts into words.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/18 20:53:48
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Serious? Plague marines are way second in line to shooting armor, and if Vendettes are reduced to shooting plague marines, then go ahead... it's only 3 shots from each vendette that's a lascannon and cover saves are gold vs. that stuff.
That was an example of another unit that's undercosted but not unstoppable. Vendettas aren't that good against Plague Marines.
sourclams wrote:"Tactics" really doesn't do much to plague marines. The right weapons, sure, and protecting those weapons, doubly sure, but "tactics" like tank shocking or getting them caught up in a sweeping advance or torrent of fire or escorting them off the table... that stuff doesn't really work because they're such a solid rock unit.
Tank shocking still works. Escorting them off the table or sweeping them obviously doesn't, though.
Orkestra wrote:They require you to use special tactics and weapons against them. The same special weapons that work well against your Daemon Princes and your Oblits.
Not necessarily. Some weapons are great versus Plague Marines but not so hot against Dæmon Princes or Oblits.
I keep hearing "some armies this", "some weapons that", but not a lot of concrete examples. In any case, just because "some" stuff can counter it doesn't mean a lot of other armies out there have a hard time of dealing with it. It's a slow day here so I don't mind the obvious trollin'.
Final thought: What weapons aren't great against DPs/Oblits but work great against PMs?
Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
Tank Shock only works provided that it's still alive taking a melta/meltabomb/or fist/kraks.
Certainly it can, but it's still an uphill climb, though an option.
My use of the phrase target saturation was slanted heavily towards this:
'If plague marines are taking str 8+ weapons, it's a good thing. Other units are not taking that str 8+ weapons to the face'...like where the lash sorc or prince is.
Cover saves are one of the things that allows an army to weather through an army that won't be saturated by targets.
Just like you had said: meching up is good..... the lash list can do the same and mech up.
My 7 Cents.
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
There is probably no other HQ choice that has as large of an impact on your opponent's choices for movement, shooting, and assault in the game. This is the essenceof a winning list--the opponent *must* play by your rules.
Basically every army has infantry. That infantry is susceptible to Lash.
If that upsets your fluff stomach, buy a case of "it's just a game"-bizmo and get over it. -Mahu
Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth. -Chuck Norris
Night Lords wrote:.....Any S7 shots will kill them just as good.
...
Power Weapons will annihilate them...
Eh, S7 won't do anything unless it's also AP2. You'd need more than 6 BS3 autocannons to kill off just 1 Plague Marine.
Power weapons are also something that has a lot of trouble versus PMarines. Your average sergeant-type character will do less than one wound to a Plague Marine (roll a 4+, roll a 5+, three chances to do it).
S7 will do just as good against 10 tacts as it will against 5 plagues. Hitting is the same, wounding is the same (on 2s), except plagues get FNP which cuts the wounds in half. The tacts have 2x as many wounds, so it is equal. Strength 3-6 the plagues have the advantage because of T5.
As for power weapons, I was talking about CSM where a fist is the norm, killing on 2s. The fist kill affects the plagues more than it does the tacts due to be outnumbered 2:1 and having the exact same requirements to kill.
How did we get to the Vacuum one on ones...?
_____
True str 7 + does not care about T5, while 8 jumps and passes FNP.
But the idea is that...if they are taking that kind of fire...that's fire not aimed at something else important in the army.
Yes, fists are mean to all infantry and the lower model count does show to be a disadvantedge there, but the advantedges outweight them, in addition lets get out of one on ones, it's an army vs. army, I'm sure the Plague marines have some sort of supporting elements, and the tactical squad have their supporting elements.
My 7 Cents.
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Plague Marines are better than tacticals points wise, you make it seem like Im arguing against that.
Im just saying people were calling the OP a troll and a moron for saying 10 tacts outsurvive 5 plagues, yet its hardly outrageous at all. People are going to use their MEQ firing power, its hardly overkill if you can wipe out 70% of a squad in one blast. Seeing as how CSM lists are based around those plagues, there really wouldnt be too much other stuff to shoot at anyways.
Tyranids
Chaos Space Marines
