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Polonius wrote:I'm not arguing the actual merits of the prize support. I'm merely stating that given the past, I don't think attendees are totally out of line being a little disappointed with it. It's hard to deny that it's lower than previous years, and few if any hierarchical events have smaller prizes at nationals than they do at regionals.

I'm not saying claiming hierarchical events that have smaller prizes at nationals than they do at regionals, is not a legitimate odity, or that having smaller prizes than last year is an odity. I am saying that claiming:

... prizes should be commensurate with travel costs
... prizes should be bigger at free tournaments (in any context)
... people should be able to break even in "value" for prizes and effort for playing a game
... tournaments aren't "free" because one has to pay travel costs for the finals
... players should get rewarded for playing a past time game voluntarily

are all belligerent and foolish arguments.

Kirasu wrote:...It has no legitimacy on who is the best due to lack of time to finish games. If you cannot finish games till the end then the entire game shouldnt even count. Last year was absolute shenanigans with the reduction in time for the final round and uh... the demon debacle. First year had horrible missions and it was 4th edition

By using only 3 rounds you come come up with 10 people who are undefeated.. How the heck can you prove ANYTHING with that kind of result? 1 more bonus point != you are better.. it means your D6 was a 6 one more time than theirs

Sour grapes? I suspect there may be 63 other people who disagree this year, they addressed slow play at the event, there were no demonic shenanigans and the missions were nearly strait out of the book.

thehod wrote:I dont know about most of you guys but winning 1st place in ard boyz and having bragging rights for a year is a damn good prize in my eyes.

Indeed!

OT

I am very surprised the IG codex took the whole shebang, and Eldar in 2nd, outstanding! I would never have predicted that! I thought Orks and Demons for sure!

Augustus wrote:

Polonius wrote:I'm not arguing the actual merits of the prize support. I'm merely stating that given the past, I don't think attendees are totally out of line being a little disappointed with it. It's hard to deny that it's lower than previous years, and few if any hierarchical events have smaller prizes at nationals than they do at regionals.

I'm not saying claiming hierarchical events that have smaller prizes at nationals than they do at regionals, is not a legitimate odity, or that having smaller prizes than last year is an odity. I am saying that claiming:

... prizes should be commensurate with travel costs
... prizes should be bigger at free tournaments (in any context)
... people should be able to break even in "value" for prizes and effort for playing a game
... tournaments aren't "free" because on has to pay travel costs for the finals
... players should get rewarded for playing a past time game voluntarily

are all belligerent and foolish arguments.

Which is why nobody made those arguments. It was said by one poster that their friend said that the prizes were lame, another poster helpfully suggested that the friend is a "complete tard" for saying that, and only then was it raised that there were some serious costs involved in competing, and that the first place prize wouldn't even cover them.

Honestly, you seem very passionate about this, which is a little odd. I think that people are raising some very true and viable comments, and you seem to be reacting as if they were speaking the most foul of slanders.

Also, calling arguments that veer between strawmen you yourself created and quite true statments "belligerent and foolish" is, oddly enough, inflammatory and incorrect enough to be slotted as both belligerent and foolish.

I don't quite know why this has so offended you.

...and you seem determined to defend the dissatisfied camp and derail the post as well.

Augustus wrote:...and you seem determined to defend the dissatisfied camp and derail the post as well.

Yes, for two reasons.

First, I'm not wild about posts, like yours, that seek to eliminate a conversation or a side of a conversation for no reason other than some vague appeal to morality. If somebody is incorrect, explain why. Simply saying "it's wrong" is like asking if somebody would think of the children...

Second, while there is more complaining online than in any other medium, it's also easier to ignore than in any other context. People that complain or castigate complainers are not only in themselves acting in the way they are judging improper, they are doing so in a much more personal and offensive way. When Poster A says "I don't like X", he's stating an opinion about a product or service. When Poster B says "I dont' like when Poster A complains," he's criticizing the actions of a peer.

So, while maybe it would have been wiser to let this matter drop, I decided to explain my views on the matter.

Kirasu wrote:...It has no legitimacy on who is the best due to lack of time to finish games. If you cannot finish games till the end then the entire game shouldnt even count. Last year was absolute shenanigans with the reduction in time for the final round and uh... the demon debacle. First year had horrible missions and it was 4th edition

By using only 3 rounds you come come up with 10 people who are undefeated.. How the heck can you prove ANYTHING with that kind of result? 1 more bonus point != you are better.. it means your D6 was a 6 one more time than theirs

Sour grapes? I suspect there may be 63 other people who disagree this year, they addressed slow play at the event, there were no demonic shenanigans and the missions were nearly strait out of the book.

If I had the gift of knowing the future than sure I would have attended.. Point is GW wrecked the last 2 years from a competative standpoint and while SOME people got tons of prizes it was NOT due to their overall generalship being above others.. It was more like rolling a dice with how GW ran the tournaments. Human decisions are based on precendence

Im glad the tournament went smoothly! More reason to show up next year.

About sour grapes comment.. yeah 'ard boyz has given me over 2 grand in free models.. The first and second rounds are fairly good!

What happened this year doesnt eliminate the problems of the other years and thats all we had to go on when making decisions

Interesting that Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh! Tourneys at the national and world level compensate for travel, sometimes even prior to prize support...

$300 seems a little weak. We can thank John for a good chunk of rules drama not happening. Maybe GW will learn from this.

Wow just wow!

* SUPER FACE PALM *

All people can do is find something to complain about and rail on endlessly. I think that is quite telling about the finals last year as well.

Cruentus wrote:How about the guy from the UK I played in the Baltimore GT, or the guy I played in the GT from Hawaii (Baltimore again). These were in middle tables, and the prizes are 'small' at the GW GTs. They spent a lot of money to play 5 games of 40k.

For most attendees, its the experience.

Timmah wrote:You realize travel costs for a lot of people was probably over 300 dollars. I am guessing most of the people who traveled long distances did so for the chance at prizes.

I don't know too many people who will travel 2000 miles just to play 3 games of 40k.

I can say that Mike Mutscheller and I traveled 3000+ miles for six games and a wooden plaque for a Heat 1 win.

I made my own prize this year. I grabbed 2 minis from everyones carrying cases at the end of the day! I now have seven 350pt armies that don't work!

Hey Augustus I think I played you second round, your mechdar versus my incomplete blood ravens?

I agree with Augustus; for everyone I knew that was going up, the prizes were NOT the reason behind going. (unlike the second round of 'ard boyz!) Would it be nice to win some extra swag? Of course!

But for the finals of 'ard boyz me and my buds went to have some games against some of the best players and hardest lists out there, to learn something new about the game, and play for competetive fun.

For me, when I try and bring power to a local tournie table, either words like 'cheese' start getting slug around or I play a new player who I can easily crush--not fun in either senario. Plus, many TO's are trying to institute a fake 'balance' with comp scores and silly pairings. The end result is that the competetive gamesmanship takes a back seat to the hobby, in a gaming tourney!

I am sure the 'ard boyz format is worth more as a very refreshing change of pace for the game more than it is worth as a free swag machine. Thoughts?

Redbeard wrote:You know, a full third of the people there had already won full 2500 point armies, by virtue of winning their semi-final - another tournament in the same series, and another without an entry fee.

You don't go to 'ard boyz round three to win amazing amounts of free product, that's ridiculous. The first prize was $300 from the store - that's not peanuts. Third place was $100. These prizes are on-par with the prizes offered at a GT, without the $100 entry fee (and with similar travel requirements).

You go to 'ard boyz for bragging rights. To say 'I'm the best'. To claim that you pay travel fees to go to a tournament because you expect to break even is about the dumbest thing I've heard. You go because you want to win against the best competition and prove that you're the top dog. That 1st place chainsword is worth more than any prize support...

Redbeard has hit it right on the nail!

I am glad with the prize support and really in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter.

Besides if you want to argue with me I have a chainsword that I can hit you over the head with....

thehod wrote:I dont know about most of you guys but winning 1st place in ard boyz and having bragging rights for a year is a damn good prize in my eyes.

agreed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DevianID wrote:Hey Augustus I think I played you second round, your mechdar versus my incomplete blood ravens?

I agree with Augustus; for everyone I knew that was going up, the prizes were NOT the reason behind going. (unlike the second round of 'ard boyz!) Would it be nice to win some extra swag? Of course!

But for the finals of 'ard boyz me and my buds went to have some games against some of the best players and hardest lists out there, to learn something new about the game, and play for competetive fun.

For me, when I try and bring power to a local tournie table, either words like 'cheese' start getting slug around or I play a new player who I can easily crush--not fun in either senario. Plus, many TO's are trying to institute a fake 'balance' with comp scores and silly pairings. The end result is that the competetive gamesmanship takes a back seat to the hobby, in a gaming tourney!

I am sure the 'ard boyz format is worth more as a very refreshing change of pace for the game more than it is worth as a free swag machine. Thoughts?

Said better than I could, you get a bonus point.

gardeth wrote:I made my own prize this year. I grabbed 2 minis from everyones carrying cases at the end of the day! I now have seven 350pt armies that don't work!

Hahahaha

I love this.

DevianID wrote:Hey Augustus I think I played you second round, your mechdar versus my incomplete blood ravens?

You know what, one of the reasons I was looking forward to the Finals, was to put some faces to online persona here on Dakka, and I ended talking to everyone without actually bringing it up, so I'm interested in who is who?

I know my second game was against Inquisitor Malice (Great game that it was), and I met Centurion99, but what about the rest of you guys?

I played the Drop Podding 'Salamanders'

Those that were there, what did you bring? This might help me place some fellow Dakkaites.

I don't think the Inquisitor actually played at 'ard boyz...

Redbeard wrote:I don't think the Inquisitor actually played at 'ard boyz...

lol would be interesting with him judging and playing at the same time if that is the case

Anyone care to post the list they used for the last set of games?

Redbeard wrote:I don't think the Inquisitor actually played at 'ard boyz...

He actually got stuck fielding the 'ringer' army since I think someone dropped after getting blanked round one.

Frazzled wrote:I heard when the table dropped it attracted the attention of a nearby Warmachine tournament. The chainsword had to be used to repel dozens of screaming angry, dorito stained gamers throwing dice in a surpressing fire manner and shouting "play like you've got a pair!" Luckily some epic players were nearby reminiscing about how everything was so much better in 2nd edition, and they promptly repelled the Warmachine boarders with vortex templates and massed volleys of mission cards.

There is no truth to the rumor that, in the midst of the hullabaloo, some chaos players secretly caught and sacrificed some Black Reach newbs to Chansus, the 5th Chaos God of Dice Rolling, to improve their scores in the final round...

I finally get my son to sleep (he is thirteen months) and promptly wake him with laughter after reading this.

Thank you


If I had sigs turned on this would be my new one.

take care

JediRaptor wrote:

Redbeard wrote:I don't think the Inquisitor actually played at 'ard boyz...

He actually got stuck fielding the 'ringer' army since I think someone dropped after getting blanked round one.

Yeah, I didn't play in the events at all this year. I came over to help judge and hang out with the AdeptiCon crew. We were looking for Redbeard to play the ringer, but he disappeared. I had to get GW to pull some models out of their display case and add them to my list 1,500 point list really quick. It was a lot of fun to play against JD. This weekend showed me that taking the summer off can definitely make one a little rusty. Hats off to John, Tom, Dan and the rest of the GW staff for running a smooth event. Also a big tip of the hat to Dave Creswell for being a great judge and whip cracker for the day.

"Whether you kill or get killed, its just a way to kill time."

That is a quote by Kenpachi Zaraki a bleach character and it really works well with 40k. Whenever you play any game including 40k you may destroy or get destroyed by someone but at the end of the day its just a game used to kill time. Some people (including myself once upon a time) think that because its a tournament its something more but its not, its just a way to pass time.

The size of the prize doesnt determine how big a tournament is, it is determined by the individual. To give an example, who do you think want to win a championship more Lebron James or Kobe Byrant? They both want it about the same, but we know that to Lebron it would mean more.


You cant down play the experience of the best of the best because of GW, expenses, or the lack of prizes. Me personally I am jealous, I would have love to compete against the best of the best.

Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
Yeah, I didn't play in the events at all this year. I came over to help judge and hang out with the AdeptiCon crew. We were looking for Redbeard to play the ringer, but he disappeared.

Oddly enough, I went to get lunch at the designated lunch time. I was back in time for round 2, but you were already setting up.

So am I right in assuming it was
1st Guard
2nd Eldar
3rd SM
Because BoLS siad the top six was 3 orks, 2 guard, 1 eldar. How did SM make top 3 if this is the case?

I was really looking forward to playing this year, and was very disappointed when my ability to participate went down the toilet five days before the event. First and foremost, I was excited for the experience of the finals.

That said, the rules packet specifically mentioned that at the finals, "The top three winners will receive absurdly huge piles of loot, cool custom made trophies, and the right to call all others dirty runtherders in light of their prestigious accomplishment!"

Again, any prizes would have been gravy, but given prior years awards and the way that GW themselves advertised the prize support, I can certainly understand why there is some grumbling. While $300 is a pretty nice prize, it ain't "absurdly huge," by any standard.

For those that attended, were there at least patches/shirts/etc given out (similar to those given at the semis)?

Yes we got a patch that said 09 finalists and the colors were inverted from the 09 semi-final patch. I liked the patches a lot.

Did anyone ask about the size of said buckets?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:So am I right in assuming it was
1st Guard
2nd Eldar
3rd SM
Because BoLS siad the top six was 3 orks, 2 guard, 1 eldar. How did SM make top 3 if this is the case?

3rd place was my friend John Blake : ) He was most def 3rd place

My other friends played hard but didn't get that place.

Guess I play with some of the best of the best

I am saying that claiming:

... prizes should be commensurate with travel costs
... prizes should be bigger at free tournaments (in any context)
... people should be able to break even in "value" for prizes and effort for playing a game
... tournaments aren't "free" because one has to pay travel costs for the finals
... players should get rewarded for playing a past time game voluntarily

are all belligerent and foolish arguments.

I agree 100% Augustus

Lets look at travel costs shall we? So, how to TO's know where you came from and how much you spent? did they tell you to come?
If you paid a small fortune to go then you obviously want to win, but i think its more along the lines of bragging rights ........ something you cant buy or put a price on.
everything about tournaments is your choice, if you dont like it, then why go?

I travel to tournaments simply for the fun of it, and im seriously temped to cross the pond for ardboyz next year
for the prize? feth no!, for the sheer fun of it and to see how other people play and how other tournies work out.




also, just want to offer my sympathy to the 2 armies that got screwed over by the table incident.

On a closing note, play for fun or competition rather than expecting huge prizes in return.
Lets face it, you allready have a fully painted army to compete, why the feth do you need a 2nd one for?


i think ill leave that for now

You boys keep working that strawman.

A half dozen or so more posters agree, and all the people that never said those things will continue to not say those things. I think you can do it.

Polonius wrote:You boys keep working that strawman.

A half dozen or so more posters agree, and all the people that never said those things will continue to not say those things. I think you can do it.