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Deadshane1 wrote:Albatross obviously knows NOTHING about gun battles.

That being said....

I am in law enforcement.

If I give you an instruction to lower your weapon and get on the ground, whether it be a gun, squirt gun, or dandelion, if you do anything but move in an unthreatening and compliant manner, you have just taken your own life in your hands.

I'm going home to my family tonight....period. People tend to forget that the police are just as much real people as the people that get shot. The police that stop and try to determine whether "that is a real gun or not" are the ones that wind up dead.

If a cop tells you to do something, comply. If he's in the wrong, sue the city later.

Drop that gun, squirt gun, or dandelion or I will shoot you in the face. I have the badge, do as I tell you. I'm not being a bully, I'm trying to keep order or get to the bottom of whatever is going on. As far as I'm concerned, its my life or yours.

Like I said, I'm going home tonight.

Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I agree. I don't care who you think you are, if a Law Enforcement officer asks you to do something, comply immediately.

No, you are supposed to not comply, get shot full of holes and then have bleeding hearts mourn your death because you are an idiot.

I get what you say Shuma. I don't see how any of us are treating this as a "Bad Boys 3" moment where we are sitting in our recliners cheering and shouting that some moron died.

Stop preaching to the choir.

I'm sorry that you think it's so awful a moron had to die. He was a moron. He deserved to die. 1 bullet or 19. End of.

I get what you say Shuma. I don't see how any of us are treating this as a "Bad Boys 3" moment where we are sitting in our recliners cheering and shouting that some moron died.

Stop preaching to the choir.

I'm sorry that you think it's so awful a moron had to die. He was a moron. He deserved to die. 1 bullet or 19. End of.

See, with that first line you seemed to understand what I was saying. Then with the second line you started to lose it, and by the third one you had gone totally back into your tangent about me being an apologist hippy that cherishes our gun brandishing youth.

Lets break this down.

I don't see how any of us are treating this as a "Bad Boys 3" moment where we are sitting in our recliners cheering and shouting that some moron died.

I'm sorry that you think it's so awful a moron had to die. He was a moron. He deserved to die. 1 bullet or 19. End of.

Cognitive dissonance.

I'm sorry. I apologize for breaking your heart that I'm not mourning that kid's death.

I'll even for him.

shuma I can on many levels see your point, and feel a certain validity to it. I personally got out of combat arms because I had enough of that life style of kick in doors what have you's. We cannot say that he was running away either since he was shot inthe backas one thing people forget due to movies is that a bullet is travelling at subsonic speeds that once they hit their targets will force you one way or another. Also a lighter grain bullets will enter the body and ricochet(misspelled I know) inside as it has hit a wall almost and thus starts to tumble around. Now for point of refrence I am the ammo manager for the national gaurd for my state. My job is ammo, and thus I have a lot of knowledge most of which I had to learn. So without being there at the scene or being a CSI I can only discern several endings that A: the person spun and as bullets flew hit him in that instant, or B: the bullets were of a light caliber since most police don't use a heavier .45cc round that would travel through a body but also packs a hell of a punch, and thus the bullets tumbled inside.

Fateweaver wrote:I'm sorry. I apologize for breaking your heart that I'm not mourning that kid's death.

I'll even for him.

Are you screwing with me? Have I been taken for a loop with your brilliant trolling, or are you really so deluded that you think that I care about some gang banging slow from a state that I can't even be bothered to remember? I hate your attitude towards it, I couldn't give a flying feth about what actually happened, except insofar as I know that you've reacted like a 12 year old with ADD thats been playing too much call of duty 4 while calling out sick from your burger joint job. The cops did their job, killing is a solemn act, you don't award medals for killing in a functioning police department. Act like you should, not like some sort of overlord of good decision making who has no reason to ever fear the bullet tipped arm of some dude in a blue shirt.

shuma I can on many levels see your point, and feel a certain validity to it. I personally got out of combat arms because I had enough of that life style of kick in doors what have you's. We cannot say that he was running away either since he was shot inthe backas one thing people forget due to movies is that a bullet is travelling at subsonic speeds that once they hit their targets will force you one way or another. Also a lighter grain bullets will enter the body and ricochet(misspelled I know) inside as it has hit a wall almost and thus starts to tumble around. Now for point of refrence I am the ammo manager for the national gaurd for my state. My job is ammo, and thus I have a lot of knowledge most of which I had to learn. So without being there at the scene or being a CSI I can only discern several endings that A: the person spun and as bullets flew hit him in that instant, or B: the bullets were of a light caliber since most police don't use a heavier .45cc round that would travel through a body but also packs a hell of a punch, and thus the bullets tumbled inside.

True enough. In the article it said that he had been running and turned with the gun in hand, that leads me to believe that he had been pointing the weapon backwards while running forewords, certainly not an innocent act.

Frazzled wrote:How are you gettig a cheering vibe?

Reading the first page a second time... I don't know how I was getting a cheering vibe. Forget I said anything.


Meanwhile, this thread has collapsed into the same old rubbish these threads always collapse into. Yes, policing is a hard job, and can involve split second decisions about life and death. That doesn't mean every action ever taken by a policeman is correct, nor does it mean the wrong decisions are always justifiable. The difficulty of policing should be accounted for, but the amount of leeway needed to justify shooting a kid holding a wallet pointing away from the officers is ridiculous.

And yes, you should comply with a policeman when he tells you to do something, but that doesn't justify any and all reactions by policeman to non-compliance. A lethal response is justifiable when the officer has a reasonable expectation that the non-compliance represents a deadly threat, it is not justifiable when its just a kid mouthing off. Force should be proportionate to the threat.

These are not complicated things. It is possible to accept a general principle, without defending that principle in all possible cases regardless of circumstances.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I'm sorry. I apologize for breaking your heart that I'm not mourning that kid's death.

I'll even for him.

Are you screwing with me? Have I been taken for a loop with your brilliant trolling, or are you really so deluded that you think that I care about some gang banging slow from a state that I can't even be bothered to remember? I hate your attitude towards it, I couldn't give a flying feth about what actually happened, except insofar as I know that you've reacted like a 12 year old with ADD thats been playing too much call of duty 4 while calling out sick from your burger joint job. The cops did their job, killing is a solemn act, you don't award medals for killing in a functioning police department. Act like you should, not like some sort of overlord of good decision making who has no reason to ever fear the bullet tipped arm of some dude in a blue shirt.

shuma I can on many levels see your point, and feel a certain validity to it. I personally got out of combat arms because I had enough of that life style of kick in doors what have you's. We cannot say that he was running away either since he was shot inthe backas one thing people forget due to movies is that a bullet is travelling at subsonic speeds that once they hit their targets will force you one way or another. Also a lighter grain bullets will enter the body and ricochet(misspelled I know) inside as it has hit a wall almost and thus starts to tumble around. Now for point of refrence I am the ammo manager for the national gaurd for my state. My job is ammo, and thus I have a lot of knowledge most of which I had to learn. So without being there at the scene or being a CSI I can only discern several endings that A: the person spun and as bullets flew hit him in that instant, or B: the bullets were of a light caliber since most police don't use a heavier .45cc round that would travel through a body but also packs a hell of a punch, and thus the bullets tumbled inside.

True enough. In the article it said that he had been running and turned with the gun in hand, that leads me to believe that he had been pointing the weapon backwards while running forewords, certainly not an innocent act.

Go ahead and point out to me where I or anyone said the cops should get a medal. You say I just type without reading first? Pot meet kettle.

I've reacted no differently than anyone else. Once again you just want to make attacks against my character and against my persona. Good for you. Want a cookie or something? Perhaps you want the gold star Shuma?

Fateweaver wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I'm sorry. I apologize for breaking your heart that I'm not mourning that kid's death.

I'll even for him.

Are you screwing with me? Have I been taken for a loop with your brilliant trolling, or are you really so deluded that you think that I care about some gang banging slow from a state that I can't even be bothered to remember? I hate your attitude towards it, I couldn't give a flying feth about what actually happened, except insofar as I know that you've reacted like a 12 year old with ADD thats been playing too much call of duty 4 while calling out sick from your burger joint job. The cops did their job, killing is a solemn act, you don't award medals for killing in a functioning police department. Act like you should, not like some sort of overlord of good decision making who has no reason to ever fear the bullet tipped arm of some dude in a blue shirt.

shuma I can on many levels see your point, and feel a certain validity to it. I personally got out of combat arms because I had enough of that life style of kick in doors what have you's. We cannot say that he was running away either since he was shot inthe backas one thing people forget due to movies is that a bullet is travelling at subsonic speeds that once they hit their targets will force you one way or another. Also a lighter grain bullets will enter the body and ricochet(misspelled I know) inside as it has hit a wall almost and thus starts to tumble around. Now for point of refrence I am the ammo manager for the national gaurd for my state. My job is ammo, and thus I have a lot of knowledge most of which I had to learn. So without being there at the scene or being a CSI I can only discern several endings that A: the person spun and as bullets flew hit him in that instant, or B: the bullets were of a light caliber since most police don't use a heavier .45cc round that would travel through a body but also packs a hell of a punch, and thus the bullets tumbled inside.

True enough. In the article it said that he had been running and turned with the gun in hand, that leads me to believe that he had been pointing the weapon backwards while running forewords, certainly not an innocent act.

Go ahead and point out to me where I or anyone said the cops should get a medal. You say I just type without reading first? Pot meet kettle.

I've reacted no differently than anyone else. Once again you just want to make attacks against my character and against my persona. Good for you. Want a cookie or something? Perhaps you want the gold star Shuma?

Yeah, I think I lumped you in with deadshane because the first thing you said was that I was trying to cast the deceased as some sort of terrible victim in all this tragedy, then you compared the death of a kid to a game of monopoly. You sort of made up for my misdirected arguments in the ensuing few posts though, so it's sort of a wash, I inadvertently tried to put you into a box, but you certainly managed to dive into it on your own.

Reading through this thread, the prominent fixtures sprung forth a strong image.

Wrexasaur wrote:Reading through this thread, the prominent fixtures sprung forth a strong image.

As someone that used to work on a hogfarm, that picture is more scary than funny. A pig can rip a person apart real quick.

ShumaGorath wrote:

To make the perp look the victim Shuma is baffling. When you act toward an armed cop in a hostile manner you give up your right to live. End of story. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This is where I begin to wonder if you can actually read. I'm beginning to think that you just slap your hands on the keyboard while singing the birthday song and words just miraculously appear on the screen. Let's review what I've said, shall we?

Modquisition on: Everyone, including Shuma, will take a breath and restrain themselves, lest this thread be closed and persons disciplined. Consider this a public warning to ALL parties. I kid you not.

Relapse wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Reading through this thread, the prominent fixtures sprung forth a strong image.

As someone that used to work on a hogfarm, that picture is more scary than funny. A pig can rip a person apart real quick.

Not if the baby has a dandelion in its pocket. Babys always have dandelions. They are like the suicide bombers of the flower world.....

Very true.

Meanwhile, this thread has collapsed into the same old rubbish these threads always collapse into. Yes, policing is a hard job, and can involve split second decisions about life and death. That doesn't mean every action ever taken by a policeman is correct, nor does it mean the wrong decisions are always justifiable. The difficulty of policing should be accounted for, but the amount of leeway needed to justify shooting a kid holding a wallet pointing away from the officers is ridiculous.

And yes, you should comply with a policeman when he tells you to do something, but that doesn't justify any and all reactions by policeman to non-compliance. A lethal response is justifiable when the officer has a reasonable expectation that the non-compliance represents a deadly threat, it is not justifiable when its just a kid mouthing off. Force should be proportionate to the threat.

These are not complicated things. It is possible to accept a general principle, without defending that principle in all possible cases regardless of circumstances.

Well said, sebster.

Here's the only part of Sebster's monologue thats relevant:

A lethal response is justifiable when the officer has a reasonable expectation that the non-compliance represents a deadly threat,

There's always an investigation after. They had a reasonable expectation. They capped him because of it. Its irrelevant what the item is. Any statements otherwise are carping without facts.

@ Frazzled - Ah yes, but that assumes the plain-clothed police officers properly identified themselves. They claim they did, but Diallo was from Equitoreal Guinea and wouldn't have spoken english as his first language. It could be that he saw a group of armed men approaching him as he stood outside his house and panicked because he thought he was about to be robbed. He goes for his wallet/keys, and one of the cops shouts 'Gun!' at which point they fire upon him. During the incident, one of the police officers fell down the stairs at the front of the apartment building, which would suggest he was fairly close. Perhaps close enough to make a better judgment as to whether the man was a threat or not? Thinking one of their comrades has been shot, they fill him full of lead.

Police officers are there to protect members of the public - not act as judge, jury and executioner of anyone who might be deemed a 'threat'. Surely human life is not that cheap in the USA?

Albatross wrote:@ Frazzled - Ah yes, but that assumes the plain-clothed police officers properly identified themselves. They claim they did, but Diallo was from Equitoreal Guinea and wouldn't have spoken english as his first language. It could be that he saw a group of armed men approaching him as he stood outside his house and panicked because he thought he was about to be robbed. He goes for his wallet/keys, and one of the cops shouts 'Gun!' at which point they fire upon him. During the incident, one of the police officers fell down the stairs at the front of the apartment building, which would suggest he was fairly close. Perhaps close enough to make a better judgment as to whether the man was a threat or not? Thinking one of their comrades has been shot, they fill him full of lead.

Police officers are there to protect members of the public - not act as judge, jury and executioner of anyone who might be deemed a 'threat'. Surely human life is not that cheap in the USA?

They don't know what country he is from. its not relevant.
They don't know what he is reaching for. In this case he was waving a 9mm.
They are not going to stick around and find out, either would you.

Frankly the moment a gun appears they are free to shoot, there is no warning requirement. thats policy (at least in many jurisdictions) but thats also common law for all citizens.

I love people who try to take the time and analysze point by point.

They see who they think is a BG.
They say stop. The rest goes this fast
He's got a GUN! BANG BANG BANG.

Fateweaver wrote:One shot, one kill is for snipers. I believe in "shoot until it doesn't move".

or even better. "Shoot until it doesn't move, then reload and let them have it again because Internal Affairs will not find that we did anything wrong."

and yes, ~50% hit rate is pretty good. What's even better is when they manage to not get any bystanders.

Albatross wrote:

england is some sort of 80's sci-fi dystopia

Not from where I'm sitting. Have you been to the UK Shuma? Just interested to find out.
I never notice any CCTV cameras, but even if I did it wouldn't really bother me. If it helps catch/convict rapists, muggers and murderers, then I'm all for it - and it's not like the US is devoid of CCTV or anything.
If I had to choose between guns or cameras as a regular feature on our streets - I'm firmly in 'Team Camera'.

But I suppose this is a side-issue, really - I'd be more than happy to take this up via PM in order to discuss it further.

Don't they have to have hovering blimps to watch over the populace to be a dystopia? I think that's a legal requirement.

You know, once I get through the list of people unfairly harmed by others, the list of people harmed by circumstances completely beyond their control, and the list of people harmed by things they shouldn't have done but harmed to a degree that was really unforseeable, I can't muster up that much sympathy for the people who do something that had a pretty obvious negative outcome, and then suffer that outcome.

Frazzled wrote:

Albatross wrote:@ Frazzled - Ah yes, but that assumes the plain-clothed police officers properly identified themselves. They claim they did, but Diallo was from Equitoreal Guinea and wouldn't have spoken english as his first language. It could be that he saw a group of armed men approaching him as he stood outside his house and panicked because he thought he was about to be robbed. He goes for his wallet/keys, and one of the cops shouts 'Gun!' at which point they fire upon him. During the incident, one of the police officers fell down the stairs at the front of the apartment building, which would suggest he was fairly close. Perhaps close enough to make a better judgment as to whether the man was a threat or not? Thinking one of their comrades has been shot, they fill him full of lead.

Police officers are there to protect members of the public - not act as judge, jury and executioner of anyone who might be deemed a 'threat'. Surely human life is not that cheap in the USA?

They don't know what country he is from. its not relevant.
They don't know what he is reaching for. In this case he was waving a 9mm.
They are not going to stick around and find out, either would you.

Frankly the moment a gun appears they are free to shoot, there is no warning requirement. thats policy (at least in many jurisdictions) but thats also common law for all citizens.

I love people who try to take the time and analysze point by point.

They see who they think is a BG.
They say stop. The rest goes this fast
He's got a GUN! BANG BANG BANG.

I think you guys are mixing up the wallet guy and the gun guy.

Of course they are, what's the point of arguing on the internet if you actually read what they other guy wrote?
Way more fun to argue against what you wished they wrote.

Da Boss wrote:Of course they are, what's the point of arguing on the internet if you actually read what they other guy wrote?
Way more fun to argue against what you wished they wrote.

You're iinferring bad intent which is about as appropriate as myself impugning your statement makes you and arse. Neither is correct.

I was joking. But whatever.

No orkticons equals no joke. You have to remember the orkitcons.

That's the problem when you're lazy like me, and always use the quick reply box. It's so tempting though. All white and blank, waiting to be filled with words...

Da Boss wrote:That's the problem when you're lazy like me, and always use the quick reply box. It's so tempting though. All white and blank, waiting to be filled with words...

I hear ya on that. Use the usual ", , , " icons sets and they should work for you.

Unfortunately there's no auto spell correct on mine.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think you guys are mixing up the wallet guy and the gun guy.

I think when the picture of the gun-wallet surfaced all hope of separating stories has been burned to the metaphorical ground.

Cops shooting people and getting away with it? What a suprise.

fire4effekt wrote:Cops shooting people and getting away with it? What a suprise.

People jumping to conclusions on the internet? What a surprise.