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The main problem I see about the Tau is the lack of flexibility and lack of redundancy. Supposedly this is justified in the fluff by their 'integrated army organisation' but IMO it just becomes frustrating on the battlefield.
The other thing is the changes to cover saves in 5th ed neutering the tau weaponry. Giving the vast majority of units on the field a 4+ save lowers the effectiveness of high Ap weaponry, and increases the effectiveness of assaults. Any player who was around for the change from 4th to 5th edition can tell you that is the truth, without me providing examples. Tau, being in essence a shooting army with high AP and no assault capabilities, suffered a lot.



Most armies can bring some sort of anti-tank, anti-MEQ, and anti-horde weapon in HQ, Elite, Troop, FA and HS slots. Tau, on the other hand, are very restricted. Most Tau units come with a S5 Ap5 weapon (all drones, SMS, FW's, Stealths, Piranhas, some Crisis layouts). The only plate weaponry we have access to is also our best Anti-tank weapon (Railhead). Our best Anti-monster weapon (Ionhead) competes with Railheads for Heavy slots, which is why many Tau armies will be seen with 2 Railheads and 3 broadsides.
Our only other anti-tank weapon (Fusion) is basically a suicide weapon (must be in combat range) whilst also competing with our only anti-MEQ weapon (Plasma).
I think the Tau would really benefit from updating their combat model to include special weaponry in FW squads - possibly via attachment of an XV15 suit or heavy drone to the squad.

On top of this, Tau are one of the few armies left with only 'normal' leadership - ie, look at the modifiers, special rules and exemptions most other armies get from morale tests. I would welcome changing Bonding back to 3rd ed - just purchase bonding for the entire squad rather than it being dependant on the squad leader - as a start (i think that fits in better with the fluff as well). Revamping the C+C node would be great as well.

Skinnattittar wrote:So by that logic, wont they still be doing nothing, but just doing it better? A bum up for BS isn't going to fix them, it's just going to make them better shooters. So more shots will hit but they will otherwise be the same. So why not just make them cheaper so you can have more units, able to absorb more damage, and be more willing to move them about to take objectives or stand behind or in front of Crisis Suits, acting as sacrificial shields.?

I see your point; however, the fluff seems to indicate that they are not a particularly populous race, unlike orks, humans, or even kroot. I tend to think of the Tau as being similar to ancient romans, elite foot troops that employ auxilaries. If bumping their BS to make it possible for more hits that could equate into more wounds, we'd all have to think of something else to make them more interesting, such as weapon options (i.e., for every 5 models you may take x, y, or z weapon at x cost). A FW squad with 2 plasma rifles in it could be fearsome even if they only have a 3 BS. This option would maintain the usefulness of the markerlights. Thoughts?

Skinnattittar wrote:That won't work! Some of you might say, but I as you, look at the Imperial Guard. They suffer most of the same tactical problems, what solved their terrible infantry options? Making them cheaper and with more options. Heck, Tau even have Kroot to improve upon as expendable close combat specialists. Give them some armor modifying weapons (yes, they can have special rules. Anything to encourage armor modifying weapons is a good move in my book), say, -1 or -2 to all saves, with 6+ being the minimum from some sort of special vibro-weapon. It's simple, its alien, it's effective without being odd and broken (I think power weapons and fists are generally broken, but simple and easy to use, so forgivable). Make them cheap and expendable, put them up front instead of the Tau, or behind ready to counter-attack when the Fire Warriors absorb most of the damage (having better armor).

Since kroot get around, and sometimes hire themselves out to the imperium of all things, why not let the shapers have access to power fists? Barring that, it would be entirely fluffy for shapers to have some sort of special melee weapon that is similar to a power weapon. I would also suggest that attacks from krootox and hounds be rending attacks (if this bumps the point cost per model then so be it). I've always thought of them as kind of beserkers so I don't recommend a bump in their armor save and I notice that you didn't as well. Poison weapon could also be an option that I'm thinking about it.

Skinnattittar wrote:Crisis suits I have always sort of seen as the Tau version of Terminators on speed, hopping around like Counter-Strike players with AWPs or FN Mini. Changes to them, that I would make, is to get rid of the shoot-and-skoot ability (because it's not fun for everyone else, as cool and fun as it may be to use), and make them cheaper with a greater variety of weapons to change their roles in the army. I would suggest close combat versions, but it would have to be accidental, as the Tau are supposed to abhor hand-to-hand combat. Perhaps some sort of elctro-flux field, enemy units engaged with them in close combat would suffer D6 attacks that hit on 4+, S5, this counts as the Crisis Suit's attacks in close combat. I could see Tau using Crisis Suits to blow through enemy packed lines in a mad rush for an objective. So they would need a good combined movement and assault distance, say 12" and 6", or vice-versa?

Interesting. How about flechette dischargers for suits? It's defensive and one shot so it wouldn't be over powered (no strength and no armor penetration and only affect the attackers on the equipped model [base to base contact]).

agnosto wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:Yeah drone squadrons shouldn't be fearless. They are obviously going to be programmed with survival instincts or they'd do stupid and suicidal things. They are not simply machines that follow direct commands they are sentient units able to act independantly and for that to work they'd need survival instincts...

I dunno, I'm kind of smitten with the idea of suicidal bomb drones flying across the field and smacking into enemy formations....

I'm sure there are many different ways to program drones. It wouldn't be a bad idea though, Kamikaze Drones. Tau are Japanese.

Trasvi wrote:The main problem I see about the Tau is the lack of flexibility and lack of redundancy. Supposedly this is justified in the fluff by their 'integrated army organisation' but IMO it just becomes frustrating on the battlefield.
The other thing is the changes to cover saves in 5th ed neutering the tau weaponry. Giving the vast majority of units on the field a 4+ save lowers the effectiveness of high Ap weaponry, and increases the effectiveness of assaults. Any player who was around for the change from 4th to 5th edition can tell you that is the truth, without me providing examples. Tau, being in essence a shooting army with high AP and no assault capabilities, suffered a lot.



Most armies can bring some sort of anti-tank, anti-MEQ, and anti-horde weapon in HQ, Elite, Troop, FA and HS slots. Tau, on the other hand, are very restricted. Most Tau units come with a S5 Ap5 weapon (all drones, SMS, FW's, Stealths, Piranhas, some Crisis layouts). The only plate weaponry we have access to is also our best Anti-tank weapon (Railhead). Our best Anti-monster weapon (Ionhead) competes with Railheads for Heavy slots, which is why many Tau armies will be seen with 2 Railheads and 3 broadsides.
Our only other anti-tank weapon (Fusion) is basically a suicide weapon (must be in combat range) whilst also competing with our only anti-MEQ weapon (Plasma).
I think the Tau would really benefit from updating their combat model to include special weaponry in FW squads - possibly via attachment of an XV15 suit or heavy drone to the squad.

On top of this, Tau are one of the few armies left with only 'normal' leadership - ie, look at the modifiers, special rules and exemptions most other armies get from morale tests. I would welcome changing Bonding back to 3rd ed - just purchase bonding for the entire squad rather than it being dependant on the squad leader - as a start (i think that fits in better with the fluff as well). Revamping the C+C node would be great as well.

You brought up a very valid point. I was looking at the Imperial Guard list today and noticed the staggering number of weapons that allows them to ignor cover saves; the Tau have one, the Airbursting Fragmentation Launcher; which is fairly short range and we can only have one per army. Forgeworld does have some very intersting varients to not only the crisis suits but the hammerhead as well.

Which brings up another point that I hope GW will address; the Tau have very little flavor with only a few different model types available; a suit is a suit and devilfish and hammerheads look identical without the turret. Maybe they'll borrow the manta from forgeworld or something to add variation.


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Skinnattittar wrote:I'm sure there are many different ways to program drones. It wouldn't be a bad idea though, Kamikaze Drones. Tau are Japanese.

Maybe that's why my wife offered them as one of the two choices for me to choose from when I decided to return to the hobby, she's Japanese. heh.

Anywho, I can just see it now:

Opponent: Why are you assaulting me with that small group of worthless drones?

Me: Watch.

BOOM!

Maybe they could work something like this:
Assault Drone Squad (1-5 models)
Fleet, Jump Infantry
Same statline as per usual.

Special:
Controlling player may choose to charge an enemy formation. When the assault drones reach base to base contact with an enemy model during either movement or assault phase, they explode causing 2d6 Strength X AP Y hits. (X equals 3 plus 1 for each model beyond the first in the squad, Y= - minus 1 for each additional model beyond the first in the squd). This effect does not work on vehicles and ignores cover.

Since these things would be getting shot to heck and back as they winged their way towards the enemy so if the Tau player is especially lucky or sneaky they might get 2-3 models across the field. Deepstriking may be a potential issue; maybe not allow it as the explosives replace the necessary components for deepstriking.

I was thinking more like the old Biovores. Something of the Tau launches the drone through the air (say, range 36") and from there, the closest target and line of sight (friend or foe), it just rushes towards at 12" a turn after launch, it may not detonate in the turn it is launched. It could be S8 AP3 Blast. It automatically hits upon impact with the closest model, and against vehicles, the center hole always counts as being over the hull (closest facing). The firing weapon may deploy two of these per turn within, say, 45d of eachother, or perhaps 18" (drones will not charge other drones of any type of the owning player, or units accompanied by drones, not including vehicles).

Basically, these drons are the mental rejects of the Tau, maybe inferior products from the Kroot they're trying out. They're the comic relief for the otherwise bland Tau army. You deploy them, they rush around looking for a target, crash into it oblivious to whether or not it is friend or foe (through the will not attack a unit containing other drones of any type, except ones attached to vehicles, which they might think are other destructo-drones attacking said vehicle.... they're special, okay!), detonating on impact!

There's a lot of good points here but I just don't see FW's getting a heavy or a special weapon in a squad. As a Tau player I don't think I'd like it either

What I would like to see are some basic point tweaks and a new rule or two and a new unit or weapon or so.

I think FW's would be fine at ten points IF for the 120 for 12 we also got an upgraded leader, photon grenades and squad wide bonding. Also, maybe, as an upgrade someway to escape CC without having to be destroyed/ crushed by powerfists/ burned alive by flamers/ riddled with 75mm rocket propelled grenades as we ran away. Maybe some other form of grenade or one self destruct guy/drone.

OH, just had an idea about that. A Grenade that reduced enemy I to 1 for the purposes of pursuit or pass a leadership test to fall back before being assaulted but still count as being broken afterwards.

I think drones should NOT take up space in a transport. If they can float, they can float near my head and don't need to take up a seat. I'm polite, but a DF isn't a bus and a drone isn't an old lady. Also, I feel that I shouldn't have to count them as losses when making a leadership test. I don't emotionally connect with robots/drones. It's not like they're Johnny 5 or a good T-800. Screw'em, they're supposed to die instead of me. There's not a lot of Tau but we can build drones faster than we can 'do it.'

Make drones fearless, why, why were they programed to feel fear?

FW based marker drones, I feel, should be Twin-linked - Assault 1 (maybe 2) - Range 18' AND Heavy 1 - Range 36' (your choice) with the networked rule and adjust the points accordingly. The squad leader could take 2 and use it to buff his squad. That would solve the FW BS issue people seem to have a problem with while still maintaining a markerlight's long range versatility.

Drop DF from 80pts to 60-65, give them blacksun filters and flechet discharger's (Can't spell) for free but make Dis Pods a 10 - 15pt upgrade to off set it.
Sort of like how Rhinos/Chimeras dropped a tonne of points and got a searchlight and smoke for free but extra armour tripled in cost. Adjust the points of the other upgrades a little too, either up or down.

Have Hammerheads changed the same as above and add target lock (Maybe). Possibly give them a third turret option or make the Ion cannon variable like the rail cannon is. Then, in essence, we'd have four choices. Maybe something like Heavy 2, Strength 5, AP 3 weapon that ignores cover saves. This would put us closer to IG/ SM(Kinda) and their amazing ability to ignore cover. Lets face it, there's a lot of cover out there now. Also, incendiary whirlwind rounds make Tau unhappy.

Let Stealth suits and/or Pathfinders be able to take objectives and then keep them at roughly the same points. Fluff wise (I know, not a good way to justify an army anymore) that's kinda what they're supposed to do. Give pathfinders some/all of the same upgrades given to FW as they're kinda the same thing just with a different roll. Also, let Stealth suits have more weapon options, something other than a Fusion blaster, maybe a flamer or other short-mid ranged shooting weapon. Burst cannons ARE good, but a burst cannon and a flamer would be deadly.

I know this is getting long and I apologize. I'm almost done.

Drop Kroot to 6 or 7pts [them being the anti Ork apparently], keep the same stat line and just give them infiltrate, move through cover and stealth (improved stealth if they're generous) I like the idea of making kroot hounds Rending as it's fluffy. Drop a shaper to roughly 18pts and give him access to more wargear or other equipment. Nothing nasty like a PF or anything just something disruptive and sneaky. Like the punji stick trap in there old WD codex, booby trapping a piece of terrain or the like. Keep the same rules for Krootox but give them relentless and heavy so they can move and shoot that pretty gun that I never take cos it's rapid fire.

DO SOMETHING WITH THE ETHEREAL, seriously, I have one converted and painted to look like Cobra Commander [which I'm proud of] that I never get to show off cos he dies all the time. I like the idea of having a spiritual leader that's not also a battlefield commander but do something with them. Something like allow ALL Tau to reroll ALL leadership based tests not just those in LOS. Plus another ability, summoning a weapon, using the fleet to disrupt enemy reinforcements or auto rallying a squad or something.

OR, alternately, give them something similar to a watered down version of the DH Inquisitor's Sage ability. Allowing selected units to shoot at deep strikers as they hit. Maybe then we could do something about those damned pods other than just wait off the table and hope for good reserve rolls.

Make Crisis suits BS 4 base with one or two other, low cost, hardwired abilities built in. (Both elite and bodyguard types) Then keep'em the same really, points and option-wise. We're probably going to get more wargear options to be honest. Which I welcome. Tau are supposed to be one of the ultimate choose toys or boys army anyway.

Since we seem to always get a new unit or the like with a codex (the dubiously useful Vespid) give us another unit. Maybe an elite or fast attack Kroot choice. Those Utah-Raptor-esq riders from the old forge world book, I'm looking at you. Or the 'mutated, gene-eater kroot' from their old Dex' or human aux. Nothing better than the Kroot in CQC as we're trying to maintain a theme here. Faster/mounted kroot would not be out of fluff I feel. I don't like the idea of the winged kroot because they'd be stepping on the 'toes' of the aforementioned Vespid.

Okay, that's it. Long, I know. But, overall, those are very minor changes that wouldn't alter the fabric of the Tau (except the Ethereal which, I feel needs a big alteration) or their established fluff and also wouldn't turn them into 'SM-lite' or 'IG-ultra.' They'd maintain their own identity and overall combat tactics. They don't get anything crazy or game breaking just subtle tweaks that would make them more competitive without becoming overpowering. Plus, with the slight downward trend in points we could squeeze an extra squad or two onto the table and then we'd have to buy more guys. Something GW's been trying to make us do for a while now.

These are all, of course, my own humble opinions. Plus, my longest post EVER!

DO SOMETHING WITH THE ETHEREAL, seriously

Yeah my Ethereal is probably the best painted model in my army too and he never gets used because well he's useless. Getting the BS4 firewarriors was nuice until I realised that they don't count as scoring as they're no longer a troop choice which just makes them pointless.

I think all Ethereals should have far weaker stat lines (lets face it if they're in CC they're dead anyway). Basically the same as Aun Va's but with I2 (same as other Tau). However they should all come with a hard wired shield generator, maybe also a refresh of the old "look out sir, AARRGH" rule. To help with survivability. THen as you say give them some sort of other special rule. For instance the firewarriors in the unit gain a stand and fire response to being assaulted, representing them doing everything to help keep the ethereal alive. Or for the cost of 1 model they can automatically run from combat without the enemy getting to sweeping advance again as a response to amn assault so the assault doesn't take place.

On that 2nd idea I think that is broadly how photon grenades should work. At the moment they are totally pointless at best a total liability at worse. Lets face it your firewarriors are not going to win combat or survive 2 rounds of combat I don't care what they are fighting. So the photon grenades will either have no effect and you squad is wiped out anyway when it runs after losing combat (most likely outcome) or worse case scenario it makes you lose by few enough to not run away thus turning your firewarriors into a nice pillow for the enemy who will wipe them out in the following turn and be ready to assault again unmolested by return fire...

oh and:

Make drones fearless, why, why were they programed to feel fear?

Otherwise they'd just float across the battle field ignoring cover straight at the heart of the enemy's guns... Programming a survival instinct into them means they can traverse a battlefield without doing stupid suicidal things. The down side is they can then decide to take cover and withdraw if taking casualties...

Marker drones are relentless so whether they are assault or heavy makes no difference, they should be cheaper though...

A point on the Devilfish. As standard it is 80 points but annoyingly counts as 2 KPs for annihilation. However give it a targetting array and SMS it can they pump out 7 strength 5 AP5 shots a turn. Has front AV12 and BS4 at only 115 points. Compared to a Predator at 85 points that pumps out 6 S5 AP4 shots plus 2 S7 AP4 shots at BS4 and has front AV13... Yeah it should be cheaper. 60-65 is about right I'd say. Or what they could do is change the definition of defensive weapons.

I think defensive weapons should be weapons the same strength as your basic troops side arm. Hence for SM this is 4, for IG it is 3, granted for almost every race it will be 4, but for Tau it is 5, we don't really do weapons with an Str lower than 5 so the defensive weapons definition doesn't make any sense for our army...

Hopefully we'll get a new codex next year, we are over due one more than most except Necrons.

OK, here’s what I would do to Tau.

Fire Warriors
Pulse rifle becomes rapid fire range 15.
Pulse carbine gets Assault 1, range 24, plus pinning.
Squad structure becomes 5 ‘la plus an ‘ui and Bonding for a straight 60 points. Add more FWs at 9 points each.

Kroot
6 points each.
Make a squad structure including a Shaper.

Crisis Suits
Everyone gets a free hard-wired targeting array, or -5 points per suit.
The flamer becomes a heavy flamer.
The burst cannon becomes range 24.
Reduce the number of H2H attacks and increase the number of BS attacks instead.
Squad size becomes 1-4.

Markerlights
All markerlights become Networked. They hit automatically and are assigned to target units within range at the beginning of the shooting phase. They are spent during shooting for the normal bonuses.

Vehicles
The burst cannon becomes range 24.
Cost of all vehicles is reduced maybe 5 to 20 points depending on the vehicle.

Stealth Suits
Burst cannon becomes range 24.
Confirm that SMS ignores cover except if the target is inside an enclosed building.

Smart Missile
Choose between two types: anti-tank (S8, affects a single model) or airburst (S5, small blast.)

Vespids
They need to be much cheaper. I'm not sure that would make them useful but it would make them less useless.

Space Pope
Get rid of him or rewrite the rules and reduce the points cost a lot. He is massively over-costed.

Other Ethereals
Something, don't know what.

Airburst Frag Launcher
This becomes an optional weapon for all Crisis suited squad leaders.

Shadowsun
Her rules need a rewrite.

That is the core of what I would do. I would introduce some new special characters and a couple of new units too. I haven’t thought about them though.

Disruption Pods are still poorly priced. It's allows them to ignore 50% of all that is thrown at them more than 12" away, not really at all compareable to Extra Armor which just lets you move around instead of sitting like a dummy in the open. Anything less than 30pts would be way undercosted for saving your craft from destruction. No-one else has an ambient, always active. Smoke launchers are similar, but they can only be used once for one shooting phase.

Also, saying Stablights are the same as the Blacksun Filter is a bit unfair, as I don't think it illuminates the using unit.

Skinnattittar wrote:Disruption Pods are still poorly priced. It's allows them to ignore 50% of all that is thrown at them more than 12" away, not really at all compareable to Extra Armor which just lets you move around instead of sitting like a dummy in the open. Anything less than 30pts would be way undercosted for saving your craft from destruction. No-one else has an ambient, always active. Smoke launchers are similar, but they can only be used once for one shooting phase.

Also, saying Stablights are the same as the Blacksun Filter is a bit unfair, as I don't think it illuminates the using unit.

I dunno. Orks have Kustom Force Fields and it sounds like Tyranids are going to have something very similar; both of which provide extended coverage to the units around them. Tau don't benefit from 14 armor vehicles, unlike the other armies; besides if it became too expensive or got taken away, players could always park a long-range crisis suit unit (twin linked missile pods w/ shield drones) in front of the hammerhead to act as a screen and it would still get the 4+ under the new rules for shooting through units. The suits jump out of the way, everything fires, then they jump back in front of the tank.

agnosto wrote:I dunno. Orks have Kustom Force Fields and it sounds like Tyranids are going to have something very similar; both of which provide extended coverage to the units around them.

You are correct, and I wholly disagree with Ork Kustom Force Fields. They are neither fluffy nor fair, and have proven to be easily exploited and under priced. If Tyranids come out with something similar, that is also painfully under priced, I will disagree with that.

agnosto wrote:Tau don't benefit from 14 armor vehicles, unlike the other armies; besides if it became too expensive or got taken away, players could always park a long-range crisis suit unit (twin linked missile pods w/ shield drones) in front of the hammerhead to act as a screen and it would still get the 4+ under the new rules for shooting through units. The suits jump out of the way, everything fires, then they jump back in front of the tank.

Well, Space Marines only have one, very expensive, vehicle that has AV14, all the others have AV13 on the front, and AV11 on the sides, AV10 rear. I think Tau hover tanks are a bit tougher than that.

Not everyone is entitled to AV14, if everyone was (and I don't think everyone should have one), then everyone would have an AV14 all around monster like the Land Raider. If you want a Land Raider, then play Space Marines or Necrons. As for AV13 being so easy to tear through (mentioned by others), for one, it's only AV1 less, so your rolls just need one more. You're vulnerable to a few more weapons, true, but it's not that bad in my experience.

Something to consider. I play Guard, and I often find my AV14 Russes having their front armor torn by particular weapons, and I sometimes think "I paid all those points for my Russ to be knocked out by a single hit?!" But I know it's actually not that bad. It just seems it because I just lost something I had felt, at that moment, would stand throughout the game rampaging about and grinding up enemy models beneath the treads of the Emperor's most holy war machine! But I knew that it wasn't so indomitable, and for the most part I expect my tanks to eventually take a critical hit and be destroyed, I just have to accept that.

What I agree is that Tau vehicles are over priced. But the solution shouldn't be to make them tougher, just cheaper. It would be nice if Tau vehicles could be made harder to kill, it would have also been nice for my Leman Russes to be harder to kill. For 20pts, I would buy a Disruption Pod in a second! It wouldn't even be a question, I would ALWAYS buy them, even if I planned to keep my treads in cover. Heck, my Basilisks would probably end up getting them too! I wouldn't even think about NOT factoring it in when I go to buy.

That's the problem. It has a big impact and a small profile, so it's a no brainer to buy and has a disproportionate effect on the game. Make it expensive, just expensive enough, and it will be used when it is needed, rather than just all the time. Imagine if I could buy four or five smoke launchers at 5ppm (assuming vehicles didn't come equipped standard). Then all my tanks could put around and pop smoke every turn to conceal them, protecting them. I'm sure many people would complain about the sudden upsurge in purchasing of smoke launchers. Though I'm sure smoke launcher providers would be ecstatic!


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And just to stay on topic; I still think Tau shouldn't be BS4.

That's the problem. It has a big impact and a small profile, so it's a no brainer to buy and has a disproportionate effect on the game. Make it expensive, just expensive enough, and it will be used when it is needed, rather than just all the time. Imagine if I could buy four or five smoke launchers at 5ppm (assuming vehicles didn't come equipped standard). Then all my tanks could put around and pop smoke every turn to conceal them, protecting them. I'm sure many people would complain about the sudden upsurge in purchasing of smoke launchers. Though I'm sure smoke launcher providers would be ecstatic!

I'm still not ocnvinced it is anywhere near as big an impact as you make out. You'd really waste 20 points on a DP for a Balisk? Why? In the current game it is nearly impossible not to get a cover save anyway so neither the DP nor the KFF are that great as you'd that save in most cases anyway. Indeed for the Hammerhead the most likely threats completely ignore the DP (i.e. meltas). It is a nice option to have and gives the Tau one small advantage but it does not have a particularly large impact on the game. It only increases the survivability of the Hammerhead by 10% maximum.

Last night i saw a t'au player using kroot units to give his skimmers a save. he had 3 units of kroot spread out across the board and he didn't lose a single skimmer.

FlingitNow wrote:I'm still not ocnvinced it is anywhere near as big an impact as you make out. You'd really waste 20 points on a DP for a Balisk? Why? In the current game it is nearly impossible not to get a cover save anyway so neither the DP nor the KFF are that great as you'd that save in most cases anyway. Indeed for the Hammerhead the most likely threats completely ignore the DP (i.e. meltas). It is a nice option to have and gives the Tau one small advantage but it does not have a particularly large impact on the game. It only increases the survivability of the Hammerhead by 10% maximum.

And I find your comments both arrogant and ignorant.

Meltas are only one threat, the only one that will be commonly used to get around it. Any weapon, from an Autocannon to a Bright Lance to a Vanquisher Cannon, that is not being fired at a vehicle with a Disruption Pod will automatically lose fifty percent of it's chances to affect the enemy vehicle. That's a big difference. Not the measly 10% you seem to abhorintly stand to for some idiotic reason (and I mean those words, report me if you please). 10% is equivalent to one in ten, when the Disruption Pod blatantly increases survivability to the vast majority of weapons brought to bear upon it by 50%, and you know it. Just because you don't want to admit that an option is horribly slanted, don't you dare state that it is nigh worthless. If that were so, you wouldn't give a crap damn if it were disposed of. I know you are intelligent, I have seen you use that intelligence. Don't insult me by lying to me. Again, I mean that, report me if you please, I fear not for it is the truth of the matter; if the effect if negligible, then its presence is negligible, if not, it is worth something.

As for cover. Yes, it is far more abundant, but when you remove the general necessity to stick to it, you have given yourself a major tactical advantage. Consider that 18" of soil is about the best protection any soldier on a modern battlefield can have for protection between them and the enemy. A bunker made of 18" of soil all around will stop the King of Battle from outright killing a soldier (by that I mean Artillery, 155mm type. The overpressure will most likely render you senseless, and the shock shatter all your teeth, and render you deaf and temporarily stupid, but you'll be alive). 18" of soil, of a few inches of concrete, brick, etc, are very common, and cover easy to find. But that limits your maneuverabilty. Which is why body armor, tanks, and the like were invented and used. So without having to worry about making sure you are going to have you sipping stones to your opponent, you have the advantage to attack him where ever you want, however you want. Disruption Pods and Kuston Force Fields give you that advantage.

You no longer have to worry about making sure half your boyz are behind an obstacle, meaning keeping many of them further from the front, and bunching other units behind them to confer the 4+ cover save from that. When moving your tanks, you can set them right out in the middle of the field, open and plain to see for everyone. As long as you are 18" away from any model with a melta, you are safe and dandy with a 4+ save. That also means you obstruct all those units behind said vehicle, with only 50% the risk of a vehicle without DP of being struck down. You can advance right up to your enemy with anything greater than R12"/18", and blast it right in their faces, again, with 50% less chance of rebuttal as a vehicle without DP. 50%!!! I'll take just about anything that would offer me 50% greater likelyhood of survival as long as it isn't +66/+75% (min) of the vehicle cost.

I can't attest to how you play your Tau. I can only use general Best/Worst case scenarios. Maybe you mis-use your vehicles, or maybe your opponent is EXTREMELY good at getting their meltas in close really quickly. But I can't make those assumptions, because in the absolutely worst case scenario, a single Guardsmen with a melta-bomb can take down Monolith in Turn 2 with particularly good luck for him, and bad luck for the Monolith.

I appologise for the encouraging of off topic discussion, and to anyone else my more colorful language may offend, I mean them no disrespect, though I can not excuse the disrespect it may cause them. But I stand by my words.

10% is equivalent to one in ten, when the Disruption Pod blatantly increases survivability to the vast majority of weapons brought to bear upon it by 50%, and you know it.

This is your problem becuase for a given shot it increases survivability you claim that means it bestows a 50% increase in survivability.

In 70% of circumstances due to the manuverability of Tau Vehicles and the way the cover saves work now they are going to be in cover anyway. Then take into account from the remaining 30% that at least 10% of threats will be from either less than 12" or in CC, meaning that you're 50% benefit will in reality only effect about 20% of circumstances. Hence the 10% benefit.

Yes having not to worry about cover is a tactical advantage like Orks get with a KFF. But nothing like you are claiming. Remember only half the squad (in the case of boys) has to be in cover so you don't have to slow your unit down to take advantage of cover you can have half your unit standing right out in the open and still get that 4+ cover save. With the Hammerhead you have a 72" range so again you don't really need to move out of cover except for LoS and the chances are that you'll still get a cover save from most of what returns fire...

If that were so, you wouldn't give a crap damn if it were disposed of. I know you are intelligent, I have seen you use that intelligence. Don't insult me by lying to me.

I'm not lying to you nor insulting you. Guardsmen aren't a lot of use and I know plenty of IG players that have as little in their army as possible to fit as many tanks as possible. If I said that a Guardsman should be 15 points each do you not think they'd argue at all?

The disruption pod is useful and confers that bit of extra survivability from shooting for our vehicles. Which in the case of the Hammerhead is the only really great thing the Tau have and in the case of the Devilfish it is our 2 kill point massively overpriced transport. Even at 5 points I find DP of no use at all on Piranhas, I run a squad of 2 Piranhas so effectively I'd only need 1 DP to give both the benefit so even at 2.5 points each it still isn't worth it to me. In fact I often don't bother putting them on my Devilfish depending on my army.

If they genuinely were that great do you not think I'd use them far more prevelantly? As for your suggestion that I can just advance my Hammerhead(s) up the middle a mobile cover for everything else as say Orks do with Killer kans, that is madness for Tau. Firstly the width of a hammerhead is that much and if you use 2 they need to be within 2" of each other to confer the save to everything behind them (as opposed to say the Killer Kans who can squad and be 4" apart). So they are not great for giving you that coverage, whilst they are far to valuable to use in this manner. They are the most valuable thing in a Tau army no way would you use them for this. The Devilfish? Possibly but with it's front armour 12 and only 18" range and the same dimension issue as the Hammerhead it is not really going to help a lot or survive a lot even with the DP.

Remember the Tau are an entirely firebased army and the DP helps them if they can stay at arms reach. But they should be onto a winner if at arms reach anyway once anything gets in CC with them they are dead, iniative 2 sees to that...

So it is a useful tool that gives a decent increase in survivability of about 10% that totally fits in with the army methos and helps protect your one ace in the hole. 15 points is about right for that. At 30 Points I'd probably never take it. To be honest I'd say smoke launchers are pretty much just as effective for Rhinos. They protect you from everything in the one turn you care about. They start in cover, 1st turn they charge forward and pop smoke. 2nd Turn they charge forward and drop off their contents after that it doesn't really matter if they die. In fact I'd argue that a Rhinos smoke launchers are far far more game winning than the DPs on a Hammerhead. Remember if you don't stop those Rhinos on that turn when they have the smoke popped it is pretty much game over for any gunline army...

And finally there really is no need to get so het up. we're all friendly on here if we disagree that is fine you can argue your case I'll argue mine and I imagine eventually we'll just have to agree to disagree

Shall we return to the topic now?

Kilkrazy wrote:
Shall we return to the topic now?

MELTA BOMBS CANT DO SQUAT AGAINST MONOS

glance on a 6

2D6 CAN NEVER BE USED AGAINST LIVING HULL SKINNATTITTAR

you are wrong

Grey Templar wrote:Last night i saw a t'au player using kroot units to give his skimmers a save. he had 3 units of kroot spread out across the board and he didn't lose a single skimmer.

agnosto wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Disruption Pods are still poorly priced. It's allows them to ignore 50% of all that is thrown at them more than 12" away, not really at all compareable to Extra Armor which just lets you move around instead of sitting like a dummy in the open. Anything less than 30pts would be way undercosted for saving your craft from destruction. No-one else has an ambient, always active. Smoke launchers are similar, but they can only be used once for one shooting phase.

Also, saying Stablights are the same as the Blacksun Filter is a bit unfair, as I don't think it illuminates the using unit.

I dunno. Orks have Kustom Force Fields and it sounds like Tyranids are going to have something very similar; both of which provide extended coverage to the units around them. Tau don't benefit from 14 armor vehicles, unlike the other armies; besides if it became too expensive or got taken away, players could always park a long-range crisis suit unit (twin linked missile pods w/ shield drones) in front of the hammerhead to act as a screen and it would still get the 4+ under the new rules for shooting through units. The suits jump out of the way, everything fires, then they jump back in front of the tank.

Both of you need to red the cover rules thiers is noo way suits or kroot could cover 50% of a hammerhead if tis on its stand

I personally think it is a bad idea to give them BS4 they have marker lights, Most tau players who complain about this seem to forget their is other armys, Eldar who already get shreaded by bolters, or imperial guard infantry armys which my friends likes to play he loves his catachans, markerlight to BS 5 is abit much

youbedead wrote:

Both of you need to red the cover rules thiers is noo way suits or kroot could cover 50% of a hammerhead if tis on its stand

Never seen suits on flight stands? Most of mine are posed as if they are taking off or landing which means none of them are touching the ground. Besides, the cover rules also state that shooting through a squad=cover save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arthas367 wrote:I personally think it is a bad idea to give them BS4 they have marker lights, Most tau players who complain about this seem to forget their is other armys, Eldar who already get shreaded by bolters, or imperial guard infantry armys which my friends likes to play he loves his catachans, markerlight to BS 5 is abit much

Obviously if the BS were to get bumped that particular function could be done away with and something like twinlinking of shots from a particular unit put in its place or some other option. Markerlights can already be used to bump BS to a maximum of 5 with the standing rules anyway....

+1 BS makes the unit 16.666% more effective at shooting - it may not seem a lot, but it does add a lot, especially if markerlights come into play, taking it to 33% - a hell of a lot more effective.

I would say a good fix would be to make pulse rifles AP4, but then I thought about it - it would make tau better at killing.... tau?

agnosto wrote:Besides, the cover rules also state that shooting through a squad=cover save.

Not for Vehicles (and monstrous creatures).

Jack

Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redundant.

T'au should be at least able to up grade their BS by 1

I like the suggestion of if there are more then 6 FWs then they have BS4.

They can up their BS, with Markerlights. I'm pretty sure Tau are the only army with a system quite like this. It is really unique, it represents a similar system that FlingItNow is suggesting, except that nobody else has it.

If that sort of rule goes in, it will fly in the face of a half dozen other armies; Space Marines, extremely well documented to have a similar, if not the same, system. Imperial Guard, some units use advanced targetting matrices, could be available to Veterans, Storm Troopers, or Techpriests, etc... Eldar, same reasons as Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Demon Hunters use the same if only similar systems as Space Marines, Necrons have "hive mind" like relations, Tyrands HAVE a hive mind.

I'm not saying it's not a fluffy rule, just that everyone else has it an won't get that rule. I think Markerlights are enough. Just make Fire Warriors cheaper, that's pretty much their one problem.

Karon wrote:I apologize for posting this.

The reason Tau have bs3 is because they have asian eyes and everything is a blur to them, just like asians.

Oh that was bad.

Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redudant.

Reported...way to be insulting and derail in the same post.

On-Topic: What will GW do with Fire Warriors?
Make them cheaper. It means they'll sell more models, regardless of how terribly it violates the fluff.

What should they do?
Keep them a small, hi-tech force, in accordance with the fluff. Naturally they'll need improvements to keep up with the dreaded Codex Creep...but isn't that irrelevant since we all know what GW will actually do...

How does making them cheaper violate fluff? Well, at least any more than Space Marines violate the fluff on the table.

You know what bothers me?

Tau are little skinny xenos. STR3.

ORKS are big, burly MEAN GREENIES! STR3. They only get STR4 on the charge.

If a Tau firewarrior sits down with an ork in a bar and has an arm wrestling contest...they'll tie. And while those Tau firewarriors cost 10 points for WS2 STR3 BS3 the orks cost 6 points for WS4 STR3 BS2. Need to balance that crap out. =p

Well, supposedly the fluff reason is that since Orks are plants, they require quite a bit of body mass to create that strength, or something....

As for the price discrepancy between them, Tau Pulse Rifle is S5 AP5 and R30" with a 4+ armor save. That's a lot compared to the ork weapons.