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This is so off topic. If god exists or doesnt, does not have any berring on the subject.
The post is dealing with priests, the Catholic church, and child molestation.

Agreed. We have the atheist vs. religious debate so often it should be obvious now that it's not going to change any minds. I've been rolling my eyes reading it, I have to admit, and I'm usually all for organic discussion. But this horse has been beat so hard it's practically jam.

@Hawkins - true.

@JEB - I'll take this up via PM.

Hawkins wrote:This is so off topic. If god exists or doesnt, does not have any berring on the subject.
The post is dealing with priests, the Catholic church, and child molestation.

These threads always end up in this vicinity at one point or another. I feel that it is mainly because people run out of things to talk about on the subject; but personally, this thread should be able to stay open if it maintains a level of decency.

Keeping the thread open, does require all of us to stay well away from flame-bait. Regardless of how you may feel about any of this, there is legitimate, and contextually offensive material from both sides; this is itself is one of the main problems with such a subject. If people can take away the labels, and focus on the situation without skewing the context far and wide, we all may be able to learn something.

My hope from all of this is that those who are responsible for any cover ups would be prosecuted and punished, and that it causes a wake up in Irish society about the role of the church and the corruption endemic in our political system. It's gone on too long.

I just had something else to add. I find it amusing that most of the non-religious types on Dakka take the Bible more literally than almost any of the Christians I know. It is a constant point of annoyance for me that people try and "educate" me on Dakka on what I am supposed to believe. And people please, stop bringing up Creationism. Not one person on this thread has mentioned it, or suggested it in any way, yet it has been brought up and pointed to as the mainline belief. Trust me it is not. That is all, I just felt that needed to be said.

Da Boss wrote:My hope from all of this is that those who are responsible for any cover ups would be prosecuted and punished, and that it causes a wake up in Irish society about the role of the church and the corruption endemic in our political system. It's gone on too long.

That i can agree with.

mattyrm wrote:
I say this because it annoys me terribly when people say that my "religion" is atheism. I dont subscribe to that because the reason i believe in evolution is a staggering amount of evidence. If it has evidence, by definition (see above) it cannot be faith. (logical proof or material evidence)

If you don't want to be seen as religious you should probably stop relating atheism and evolution as though they are bedfellows. There's no reason any given atheist has to believe in evolution, nor is there any reason for any given evolutionist to be an atheist. You're speaking almost as though you have an established dogma.

mattyrm wrote:
Oh and Dogma, i will change my avatar if you think that it is "proof" that i cannot be reasonable or is offensive in some way. Surely that is typecasting someone far more than anything i have said?

Of course it is. Why do you think I wrote it?

mattyrm wrote:
Are you implying that if someone thinks that Creationism is ridiculous they cannot be reasonable people? I assure you that many millions of people find it worthy of ridicule.

I'm implying that someone who thinks Creationism is ridiculous is unlikely to possess a fair mind with respect to religion.

mattyrm wrote:
This does not make them incapable of reason.

It might if the reason in question pertains to religion.

Being as everyone is sick to the back teeth of this, i shall keep this type of stuff for PM. My apologies.

Da Boss wrote:My hope from all of this is that those who are responsible for any cover ups would be prosecuted and punished, and that it causes a wake up in Irish society about the role of the church and the corruption endemic in our political system. It's gone on too long.

My children will be going to an "Educate Together" school--that's for sure (this is what, in the u.s., counts as a normal elementary school meaning you don't attend mass or use class time to study for your confirmation [or is it first communion? whatever]). I want to know why the Vatican refused to cooperate with an investigation into child abuse. Why would they refuse to share the requested documents? What have they got to hide other than pedophile priests and/or knowledge that implicates the Vatican itself in covering up the abuse?

No idea Olympia, but its not the first time the Vatican has done so on many a subject. The good thing though is the Vat has no power outside its own sphere so some priests convicted in say canada, US, etc, will face justice. so there is some punishment handed out, even though you feel as i do, that its not enough because others escape justice.

I am genuinelly stunned that the church did not coperate with the investigation. I cannot for the life of me see why, or what they would gain from this.

mattyrm wrote:I am genuinelly stunned that the church did not coperate with the investigation. I cannot for the life of me see why, or what they would gain from this.

This is the genuine sentiment of the majority of Christians. Lacking shock, a certain distrust has most definitely developed through these actions.

Even accounting for the fact that the Church may have genuine reasons (which I do not feel like writing an essay about...), there is still an amount of serious disregard for the children's welfare to be accounted for. There are messed up people in the world, but I have no need for the worst of them to be in positions of any sort of power. All of these allegations should be taken very seriously, and all that are accountable, should be held so.

It is suprising, but it probably stems from wanting to avoid bad PR. I've known a lot of really decent priests in Ireland, and they're the ones I feel the most sorry for. I also feel that the catholic church is only half the problem, the collusion with the government is as bad.

Da Boss wrote:It is suprising, but it probably stems from wanting to avoid bad PR.

It actually isn't surprising at all, given the intuitive nature of such an institution. No one wants to be the pedo-bear look-a-likes, and frankly, such a claim is as hard to shake as any other politically engaged entrenchment.

I would go directly to claims of "Being true americans", but for the sake of the continuity of this thread, I will go ahead and refrain from going into direct comparison. You are x, I am y, x is bad, so y is good. Along those lines does such an argument automatically take.

Actually, one of the principles of Code of Canon law is that it is to reduce/repair scandal. The Church, unlike fundamentalist sects, is based less on scriptural authority and more on a tradition of spiritual authority, and in order to maintain that the established policy is to contain and minimize scandal. Cooperating with the government will not do that.

That is something that needs to be addressed then, because in the end it's not going to be good for the Church.

Hey look a thread on a Church related topic I almost missed(Turkey day feasting ensued).

Anywhoo, not going to comment on the evolution vs creation except to say that this topic seems to be brought up mostly by new comers(like mattyrm) that haven't experienced one of our debates. The rest of us have the "once bitten twice shy" mentality.

2nd:
I'll defend Frazz's threat of sanction, because it certainly seemed like what was being put forth was the idea that religious people are stupid, because a lot of highly educated people are not religious. You can defend the poster all you want, but that's what it appeared he was implying.(even though later he backed off)

Now onto the topic at hand. I tend to agree with what MGS has said concerning certain sects of Christianity(indeed other religious sects as well) that tends to attract this type of person, due to the secrecy and cover up that is inherent within their organization. I totally disagree with mattyrm's assssment that it somehow distorts these people and turns them into madmen. I believe they were mad to begin with and found a convenient organization to hide in.

I will also say that I believe that sexual abuse is a dark part of the human soul that is not isolated to religious organizations.

The bottom line, is don't trust any body with my children alone, unless I really, really, really, know them well. TBH I like Frazz's Churches aproach.

GG

generalgrog wrote:I will also say that I believe that sexual abuse is a dark part of the human soul that is not isolated to religious organizations.

The majority of abuse comes from within families, hence the 'pervo uncle' concept/meme. This in itself really sheds what some would consider to be light on the situation. I am of the frame of mind that this should be dealt with on an even block, not a skewed representation of what some would like to present.

There has been a 'horrendous' amount of coverage over this whole issue because of it's association with a relatively prominent authority figure. The main issue with all of this, is the steps that seemed to have been taken by the Vatican; to cover their own ass (to put it bluntly).

Going off topic again... my bad.

generalgrog wrote: TBH I like Frazz's Churches aproach.

GG

I agree that this is smart policy. However, from his post it seems that this applied only to lay volunteers not to the actual priests or ministers (not sure what type of church).

sebster wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Another post like this and I am closing this thread and suspending the poster. I am as serious as a heart attack.

I've not commented on mod policy before, other than to defend it once or twice, but locking threads and suspending posters for factual statements is a pretty bizarre policy. The relationship between education and religion has been strongly established in multiple studies.

There is also a positive correlation between religion and charity - even excluding religious donations the faithful give a greater proportion of their income. Is that a ban-worthy topic, as it could be seen as reflecting poorly on the non-religious?

What about the positive correlation between conservatives and charity? Because there's one there too. Is my pointing that out offensive to progressives?

Its not a factual statement, its a hit.

I'm on record at this point as stating that threads about religion should not be on Dakka due to the inevitable downward spiral.
It was an attack, quit your bs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:I've been reading the report a bit more. It is a scathing indictment of the Irish Catholic Church in particular and the Catholic Church in general. I know frazzled is keen to lock this thread, and I present the following information from the report which was carried out by a panel of judges.

Let's get to the scary material. Pedophiles are statistically over-represented in the Irish Catholic Church. The commission started with an investigation of 102 priests. It then narrowed this down to 46. Page 12 of the report: "The Commission examined complaints in respect of over 320 children against the 46 priests in the representative sample. Substantially more of the complaints relate to boys – the ratio is 2.3 boys to 1 girl." http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2009/diocese/1234.pdf . The commission concluded that in only one case of the 46 was the accusation false, and it further stated that there was strong suspicion regarding two priests were accusations were absent. Of these 46 priests, only 11 have been convicted of abuse. Fifteen of these abusers are still being supported by the Catholic Church, either in Ireland or abroad.

What is worse, documents that the Commission wanted for its investigation were transferred from the Dublin archdiocese to the representative of the Vatican in Ireland. This placed these documents under diplomatic protocols and thus out Irish civil subpoena authority.

Anything in the report or related about follow up. Aka are police gong after these s? There's no news about Irish C Church here, bu the US has been home to these scandals for some time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:

generalgrog wrote: TBH I like Frazz's Churches aproach.

GG

I agree that this is smart policy. However, from his post it seems that this applied only to lay volunteers not to the actual priests or ministers (not sure what type of church).

To be clear, I am speaking for my diocese. the safety rules/training/etc. applies to everyone who interacts with children or youth. Not everyone has the background tests, but the procedures themselves apply to everyone.

Frazzled wrote: There's no news about Irish C Church here, bu the US has been home to these scandals for some time.

I would be surprised if the Irish problem and the U.S. problem weren't somehow related. It seems to me, that it would have been easy to relocate a priest from Ireland to Boston. And if my memory serves, the Boston and New England areas were particularly bad about this stuff.

GG

You may be correct. i am not too familiar with the extent of this subject other than the firm belief criminal cases need to be pressed wherever the evidence supports.

The Frazzled we all know and love would also say RICO and other creative efforts should be pursued against those who knew and averted their eyes. Thats US only of course.

Around here, where you find deer, you will find a mountain lion hiding in the grass.

Any position that provides cover while stalking will attract these predators. The teaching profession is also rife with them. However, these news stories are slightly less compelling to the public.

In a Post Office, I saw poster with a man "wanted" by the police for similar crimes. In the description of the suspect, it listed under "known professions": Gynecological Nurse.

JD21290 wrote:

I have a feeling this thread will be destroyed pretty quickly.

Thats what she said

Frazzled wrote:
Its not a factual statement, its a hit.

I'm on record at this point as stating that threads about religion should not be on Dakka due to the inevitable downward spiral.
It was an attack, quit your bs.

Frazz, there comes a point where your attitude becomes self defeating. By being hyper sensitive towards all possible slights against religion, you're not helping the discourse, you're simply making it more appealing to post stuff that could bother you. It also reinforces to the heathens on this board that people of faith are whiny and weak.

There is a huge difference between a factually true statement that was made snidely, and a genuine attack.

Polonius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Its not a factual statement, its a hit.

I'm on record at this point as stating that threads about religion should not be on Dakka due to the inevitable downward spiral.
It was an attack, quit your bs.

Frazz, there comes a point where your attitude becomes self defeating. By being hyper sensitive towards all possible slights against religion, you're not helping the discourse, you're simply making it more appealing to post stuff that could bother you. It also reinforces to the heathens on this board that people of faith are whiny and weak.

There is a huge difference between a factually true statement that was made snidely, and a genuine attack.

It also means I don't care to be on a board that attacks my faith.

Polonius wrote:... there comes a point where your attitude becomes self defeating.

Pot meet kettle.

Polonius, I think you and others are missing the point. As a mod, Frazz is trying to keep the peace and trying to keep the discussion from spiraling out of control. The guy made an attacking post that was offensive. Was it highly offensive? No.... Was it snide? Probably.

Experiance has shown that religious discussions on this forum can degrade fairly fast into bandwagon jumping attacks vs religion. Some are fair critisisms, and others(mainly from the nonregular OT forum dakkites) are blatant falsehoods and or downright meanspirited and or unfair.

I don't envy Frazz's dakka job at all.

GG

I don't envy Frazzled job either, except for the chicks and beer of course.