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No. It's not the facing that you can see on the target vehicle, it's the facing you are in.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:No. It's not the facing that you can see on the target vehicle, it's the facing you are in.

Not true. If you are in the front facing but can only see the side. You roll against the side Armor Value and the target gets a 3+ cover save.

So in this case, I think you would roll against the rear armor.

Daemons with a moderate-to-heavy amount of breath of chaos would do a pretty good number on this list. I'm thinking 2-3 suicide squads of flamers, with 2 (or more) chariot heralds.

A token unit or two of screamers would really have fun with that many vehicles, too.

Add in a couple grinders and a squad of fiends for the turn 2 charge, and I'm thinking it will be a bad day to be a space marine....

Creed could beat that list say hello 3 str 8 large pie coming from the side.

kadun wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:No. It's not the facing that you can see on the target vehicle, it's the facing you are in.

Not true. If you are in the front facing but can only see the side. You roll against the side Armor Value and the target gets a 3+ cover save.

So in this case, I think you would roll against the rear armor.

I meant for cover.

Well, When a facing is entirely obscured, you also roll against the AV of the available facing, so any shots against razorbacks that you are claiming only the "rear" of the tank is visible because the turrets are rear mounted would be against AV 10.

I prefer this reasoning: you are in the front arc. The turret makes the tank visible, even though the front "hull" is not visible, so you fire against the front arc.

What the hey, here's what I would take for Dark Eldar. Hopefully it'll at least raise some eyebrows..


HQ (160)
1) Archon (160)
- Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, Reaver Jetbike


TROOPS (840)
1) 10x Dark Eldar (140)
- 2x Dark Lance, 2x Blaster
- Sybarite with Agonizer/Haywire Grenades

x6

FAST ATTACK (900)
1) 10x Reaver Jetbike (300)
- 2x Blaster
- Sybarite with Agonizer/Haywire Grenades

x3

HEAVY SUPPORT (100)
1) Talos


12 Dark Lances and 18 Blasters.

If they come at me, their transports are getting shot down or assaulted and destroyed first turn. I have enough S4 attacks to destroy or cripple the transports by assaulting, and every unit has a power weapon wounding on 4+ for all the squishy marines inside.

If they stay put, I'm coming at them. Overwhelm a flank with a 3+ turboboost cover save while my gunline pops Razorbacks. If they try to take down my bikes, my dark lances continue to go to work and my bike units can't be shot at if in assault.

That DE list is terrible...it would get rolled by a lot of other common armies you'd see in a tournament, which I think destroys its consideration as a viable "take all comers" list.

I don't even think it's very optimized for taking out this list, either. Trying to cripple the vehicles with massed S4 assault is not going to work well, and while the huge reaver squad may be sufficient to kill the occasional 5 man squad that's in the open, they'll get hurt if shot/assaulted by a pair of 5 man squads with the rune priest in tow.

Trying to get cover for 60 warriors, while being in range of the list, sounds daunting on most boards...that, or they'll be clumped up enough for the frag missiles to hurt.

Its all well and good to say I would do this but really it comes down to if you have played against it or not really.

Reaver jet bikes still only have one attack each, unless you get a favorable roll on the combat drug table (I think they can get the +1A drug), so lets say that's 73 str 4 attacks on the charge from all three units.

If he's moved 6" then you get 37 attacks, 6 glances, so about one vehicle immobilized. I don't call that "enough str 4 to cripple the transports by assaulting."

Now, given that you don't have any squishy transports and that his 5 man grey hunter squads can really tear up your scoring units, I think that most competent players would probably actually rush forward first turn, rather than just taking lascannon pot-shots against targets that are not optimum for anti-tank fire, so you'd more likely be hitting his transports on 6's.

This DE list would not work well against the Wolf list, as you don't have any really effective alpha-strike capability, but merely the illusion of it.

How does this list kill Nob Bikers though? When I'm building SM lists I'm always wondering how to be able to deal with atleast one squad of them. At 2000 points though you could be looking at 2 full size ones or some hybrid of Bikers+Lootas. You don't have Dreadnoughts or Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields to take them on in CC, and I doubt the lascannons will do enough considering his cover saves and use of terrain to block los.

Therion wrote:How does this list kill Nob Bikers though? When I'm building SM lists I'm always wondering how to be able to deal with atleast one squad of them. At 2000 points though you could be looking at 2 full size ones or some hybrid of Bikers+Lootas. You don't have Dreadnoughts or Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields to take them on in CC, and I doubt the lascannons will do enough considering his cover saves and use of terrain to block los.

Each razorback has a lascannon and plasma gun, sure they'll get a 4+ save odds are still good they'll fail at least half. Instant death from the lasccannon and no FNP from ether.

Come on. How do you presume a ton of tanks draw LoS to bikers that hide behind the mass of wrecked vehicles? When the Razorbacks move to draw line of sight they aren't firing more than one weapon either.

this list doesn't take terrain, LOS, or anythng else into account really. It's theoryhammer Therion, everyone has line of sight and is in rapid fire range all the time.

I just don't see the point, and I'm pretty sure you can make a better "let's spam vehicles" list from the SW codex than this one. I'd go with something like two Rune Priests, three Dreadnoughts, six Razorback Grey Hunter squads, three Typhoons and three Predators. It'd have 15 vehicles with a wide variety of heavy weaponry (off the top of my head 27 heavy weapons and 12 special weapons) and three Dreadnought close combat weapons for that extra counter punch while being virtually immune to psychic powers.

Jeez, sourclams, you're right, I'm wrong! Don't know what part of that I didn't get at first but after your last explanation it made 'click' so loud that my colleagues turned their heads to see what had happened.

Maybe it was the reference to the handy diagram provided in the rule book for our comfort and convenience.

Therion wrote:I just don't see the point, and I'm pretty sure you can make a better "let's spam vehicles" list from the SW codex than this one. I'd go with something like two Rune Priests, three Dreadnoughts, six Razorback Grey Hunter squads, three Typhoons and three Predators. It'd have 15 vehicles with a wide variety of heavy weaponry (off the top of my head 27 heavy weapons and 12 special weapons) and three Dreadnought close combat weapons for that extra counter punch while being virtually immune to psychic powers.

The list you're suggesting can fit in the following in 2k points:
2 Rune Priests
6x Lazback Grey Hunters x5 with free flamer
3x Dreads
3x Preds with las sponsons
2x Typhoons with heavy bolters

By my count you lose 8 missile launchers, 1 heavy bolter, 3 t/l plasma guns, and 6 combi meltas at a gain of 3 multimeltas, 3 autocannons, and 3 lascannons. I don't really think your list is better, just different, and with considerably less anti-horde firepower (6 flamers and 4 missile launchers versus 6 flamers and 12 missile launchers). Yes, you have Dreadnoughts, but they're not really anti-horde, just tarpits due to a very, very low number of attacks.

By my count you lose 8 missile launchers, 1 heavy bolter, 3 t/l plasma guns, and 6 combi meltas at a gain of 3 multimeltas, 3 autocannons, and 3 lascannons. I don't really think your list is better, just different, and with considerably less anti-horde firepower (6 flamers and 4 missile launchers versus 6 flamers and 12 missile launchers). Yes, you have Dreadnoughts, but they're not really anti-horde, just tarpits due to a very, very low number of attacks.

What a strange way to count what I gain and lose. First of all my list had three Typhoons not two, and the Dreadnoughts have heavy flamers in addition to the multi-meltas for that anti-horde. Secondly, you chose to think that the additional Rune Priest wasn't an actual gain at all. If you think so, replace him with a Typhoon for some more guns. Lastly, my list has 6 AV 11 3 AV 12 and 3 AV 13 vehicles in addition to the Speeders while your list only has 12 AV 11 vehicles. Simply put, my list is infinitely better by being more versatile and durable.

I think he doesn't believe that you can fit the third Typhoon into 2k.

Therion wrote:What a strange way to count what I gain and lose. First of all my list had three Typhoons not two, and the Dreadnoughts have heavy flamers in addition to the multi-meltas for that anti-horde.

Too many points, unless you're running Dakka Preds. Even then you'd have to shave points to fit heavy flamers on the Dreads.

Secondly, you chose to think that the additional Rune Priest wasn't an actual gain at all.

He's only a gain if you deploy him outside of a vehicle since there's no fire points on Razorbacks. And that pretty much defeats the purpose of running a Mech list, since you've either got him standing in a field by himself or are depoying squads to use as ablative wounds.

Simply put, my list is infinitely better by being more versatile and durable.

"Your list"--which I put in quotes because it's basically Stelek's list with two fundamental changes; dreads and preds--is more durable against long range anti tank, but has significantly less anti-infantry firepower and I would call 3 Dreadnoughts dubious counterassault at best due to a low attack number and relative ease of neutralization (one penetrating table result of 3+ removes their offensive CC capability). In the mirror match, if Stelek's list shoots first you die, if your list shoots first Stelek dies. It's a sidegrade at best, and the claim of "infinitely better" is a ridiculous stretch.

Too many points, unless you're running Dakka Preds. Even then you'd have to shave points to fit heavy flamers on the Dreads.

Too many points eh? You're making guesses on what's in my list and then saying there's too many points. Of course they are Dakka Preds. Anything else is overpriced. However, with just a single Rune Priest, you'll see that you can fit 3 mm/hf dreads, 6 las/plas razors with flamer squads, 3 typhoons and 3 ac/las predators with 15 points still to spare. That list is simply to satisfy your demands and probably isn't maximising heavy weapons. By dropping the lascannon sponsons it has 120 points to play with which can buy more speeders. Actually, by shaving all the extras, the list can have four typhoons (if it's legal for SW) and one with mm/hf. To each their own.

"Your list"--which I put in quotes because it's basically Stelek's list with two fundamental changes; dreads and preds--is more durable against long range anti tank, but has significantly less anti-infantry firepower and I would call 3 Dreadnoughts dubious counterassault at best due to a low attack number and relative ease of neutralization (one penetrating table result of 3+ removes their offensive CC capability). In the mirror match, if Stelek's list shoots first you die, if your list shoots first Stelek dies. It's a sidegrade at best, and the claim of "infinitely better" is a ridiculous stretch.

What the f**k is "Stelek's list"? You mean the list you posted is "Stelek's list" or what? Does that joker still post here? His craptastic WHFB army lists in particular were always hilarious to read, simply because he always presented them as something made out of pure win. I haven't even posted an actual army list with points values and details -- All I've said is that by replacing your largely ineffective elite and HS choices with Dreadnoughts and Predators the list becomes infinitely stronger, which it does. All you've done is speculate on whether I can fit one or two few heavy flamers within the points allocation while keeping up with whatever other wild presumptions you might have.

I also fail to see how 'he gets first turn he wins, you get first turn you win' is supposed to be an argument that's going make me agree that my list isn't infinitely better. There is more to this game than mirror matches.

You should stop using the word "infinitely." It's hyperbole and doesn't make you look like you're making a rational argument, especially when the difference between most lists is not too huge unless a player is choosing to use some obviously underpowered and expensive units (repentia come to mind).

willydstyle wrote:You should stop using the word "infinitely." It's hyperbole and doesn't make you look like you're making a rational argument, especially when the difference between most lists is not too huge unless a player is choosing to use some obviously underpowered and expensive units (repentia come to mind).

Thanks for the advice. I only speak five different languages and I have to agree that my English is a little rusty. However if you look at the context you'll see that I used the word again simply to show that his arguments are unconvincing and that I haven't changed my mind.

Therion wrote:Thanks for the advice.

You're welcome.

What you mean by the word and how the reader perceives it are, of course, two different things.

Therion wrote:
Too many points eh? You're making guesses on what's in my list and then saying there's too many points.

You posted the units in your list. I did what I could to make them all fit. It's not like it's rocket surgery to figure out the differences, you've made 7 total changes in the unit roster over Stelek's.

I also fail to see how 'he gets first turn he wins, you get first turn you win' is supposed to be an argument that's going make me agree that my list isn't infinitely better. There is more to this game than mirror matches.

I'm pointing out that you have the exact same weaknesses as Stelek's list without adding to its alpha strike potential, slightly more durability versus long range anti tank (unless you downgrade the las preds and take more speeders, then you've got about the same durability), and you lose slightly to its anti-horde potential (unless you downgrade the las preds "...", then you've got about the same anti-horde).

You called it "infinitely better" twice now, I'm pointing out that essentially the same, barring a few changes to make it even more like Stelek's list.

I see what you're trying to say now. I still think you're wrong but I'm repeating myself so I guess we can drop this.

As far as nametagging lists goes and counting the amount of changes made, my SW list has only 2 changes from the universally standard Vulkan lists (troops and hq) and so these Space Wolves essentially don't have anything to do with you or Stelek at all.

cool list man although I thought that wolfguard needed to be taken in groups of at least 3 for independent units. Don't have the book on me just commenting. That is allot of razorbacks which is totally awesome.

That being said I think a well rounded IG AV 12 list would be a good match up against it I.E. Chimeras/hydras/vendettas mostly with some reglar platoon support and maybe a calladus/marbo combination. whoever got First turn would get a huge advantage because the way I see it your long fangs are probably the greatest turn 1 threat as they can get rid of multiple units in squadrons.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:(unless the long fangs are outside their transports too? Is that part of the army's tactics)

Rhinos have fire points, I assume those rhinos are going to be just bunkers for the long fangs to pop off missile shots from.

Ooops, I misread and thought the fangs were in razorbacks too. Yep, so that does mean the longfangs get to shoot from the start too.

Spellbound wrote:Then turbo-boost them forward in the enemy's face. Everyone has a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

You can't use psychic powers and turbo-boost in the same turn (unless you meant that the farseer would cast fortune on the warlocks and then separate from the unit before it boosts, which is a problem in the following turn).


What about a mechdar list based on massed str6 firepower? Especially falcon-based with the odd str8 shot thrown in? This is a spot where shrieker jetbikes with their 6" jumpback assault move might actually be useful? Could an army like that muster firepower comparable to Shep's non-vet mech guard?

Actully you could fortune and turboboost a seer bike council. Eldar Farseer powers are used at the beginning of the turn before movement even takes place.

I am seeing this:
2 X biker warboss with cybork, klaw and squig
2 kitted 10 man cybork nob biker squads
2 squads of 13 lootas with a small grot squad.

That should smash them in the head right proppa. They are losing 2 'backs a turn to the lootas and getting multicharged by the bikers. They would be very fortunate to not get tabled.