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Kanluwen wrote:If they're doing it, "everytime you go in there" then TELL THEM TO KNOCK IT OFF.

Jesus, how complicated is this?

Do I need to come up with some kind of magical anti-Redshirt Formula?

They are not mind-readers. They are average human beings(more often than not--under 18 also), at a minimum wage job and doing something that they're told to do. They do not know they are doing wrong unless you tell them.

Wait... hold on a second.... so you are telling me "I've worked retail and service(2 years working at Borders as a cashier, and a year working as a waiter at TGI Friday's"
That its not GW's manager's responsibility to train their staffs properly? and that its the customer's?

*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Ive never once seen a red shirt thats under 20... and even thats pushing it. And who says they need to read minds to get a hint... Its not that hard to pick up when someones irritated or knows what they want...etc... I guess I should go break a window... I dont know its wrong unless someone tells me.

Kanluwen wrote:*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested. <-- That looks fluid to you? Thats how NPCs behave.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Reply = in red.

Manchu wrote:@anti: Oh, I wasn't trying to criticize you're description, I know what you're referring to. I kind of agree with Kanluwen (which sounds like a cool Jedi name to me) that there is a strange, anti-social bent to the complaints that a strong sales pitch should be returned with such vitriolic hatred rather than a polite "I'm just browsing, I'll let you know if I need any help." When I told that to my redshirt in MI, he'd back off until I asked a question or struck up another conversation. I know that's not how it always works but I think when you get a real stinker it's more to do with that individual than GW or redshirts in general.

Haha, no worries, I was just using the all caps for added emphasis . Some of the things I'm stating I'm exaggerating on purpose to prove a point... since the main point of this thread is essentially 'do you find the GW staff annoying at times', not 'are the GW sales tactics effective'.

But yeah your experience there is exactly what it should be every time. He spoke with you (the customer) and you didn't need any help and if you did you'd ask him. Too easy. I also agree with you on your point about it being the individual (I don't know if you read this entire abortion of a thread) but that is my main point, in the end.

EDIT: LOL @ NPC comment, Luna

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested. <-- That looks fluid to you? Thats how NPCs behave.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Reply = in red.

Read the point you're aiming at.

"If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested."
It means that salesperson has terrible human interaction skills, and probably shouldn't be in a customer service job--much less one apparently as high end as working with hobbyists!

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested. <-- That looks fluid to you? Thats how NPCs behave.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Reply = in red.

Read the point you're aiming at.

"If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested."
It means that salesperson has terrible human interaction skills, and probably shouldn't be in a customer service job--much less one apparently as high end as working with hobbyists!

BRAVO ! WELL SAID , which brings us back to this:

Kanluwen wrote:And yes, I do place the blame on YOU, the customer. I've worked retail and service(2 years working at Borders as a cashier, and a year working as a waiter at TGI Friday's). I've spent my time dealing with crummy customers who've had a shoddy day and blow up in my The garbage customers try on you/try to hand you can be very ridiculous.

What is your point?

That a customer cannot be wrong?

It's a two way street, Luna. If a customer comes in and immediately gives the employee attitude--well guess what? You're going to get attitude back, for the most part.

It's human nature.

Once again, I think we can assume from a numbers perspective that the hardsell is effective. The redshirt is there to sell you little plastic men not to ignore you as you skulk through the store and then out the door. He talks to you about buying things because it's his job. It is unlikely that this job is his ultimate career goal so chances are he's not the ace salesman you might prefer. But he's trying.

The "redshirts are cancer" side of this argument relies on an extreme--namely that the salesperson is so annoying that it will cause you to not buy anything and never come back. The fact that there are still retail locations disproves the notion that this is anything but a minority response to the hard sell. If you are in that minority, so be it. There's online shopping for you. What I don't get is why you still feel the need to badmouth the concept of their approach. It's obviously accomplishing the mission well enough to be worth a corporation paying for it.

Wait... who said anything about walking in and giving them attitude... this is about them hasseling you about stuff you dont need/want... not getting the hint to stop... and being a major annoying pain...

Manchu wrote:Once again, I think we can assume from a numbers perspective that the hardsell is effective. The redshirt is there to sell you little plastic men not to ignore you as you skulk through the store and then out the door. He talks to you about buying things because it's his job. It is unlikely that this job is his ultimate career goal so chances are he's not the ace salesman you might prefer. But he's trying.

The "redshirts are cancer" side of this argument relies on an extreme--namely that the salesperson is so annoying that it will cause you to not buy anything and never come back. The fact that there are still retail locations disproves the notion that this is anything but a minority response to the hard sell. If you are in that minority, so be it. There's online shopping for you. What I don't get is why you still feel the need to badmouth the concept of their approach. It's obviously accomplishing the mission well enough to be worth a corporation paying for it.

THANK YOU!


You do NOT encounter these forms of redshirts at every store. Experiences alone have dictated that to me. I have only walked out of a GW store ONCE, over almost 15 years of checking them out in which I felt I was given the form of extreme sales-pitch that is suggested in this thread.
Maybe it's different in the UK, maybe it's different in Canada, I don't know. I've only checked out the Eastern Coast of the US' stores. And the only employee who gave me that kind of hardsale, was pulled aside by his manager and told to calm it down a notch.

Kanluwen wrote:What is your point?

That a customer cannot be wrong?

It's a two way street, Luna. If a customer comes in and immediately gives the employee attitude--well guess what? You're going to get attitude back, for the most part.

It's human nature.

Well... lets call it a start i guess. Atleast now you acknowledge it.

Kanluwen wrote: Maybe it's different in the UK, maybe it's different in Canada, I don't know. I've only checked out the Eastern Coast of the US' stores. And the only employee who gave me that kind of hardsale, was pulled aside by his manager and told to calm it down a notch.

Well its progress alright. Just remember this as general rule of thumb:
Your personal experience isnt enough to dictate or dismiss what you think others have or have not gone through.
If yourself saw it happen first hand granted only ONCE , then you know it can happen to others MORE than once.

*PS Im not sure whether to nitpick or not , but i find it weird.
For someone that complains about spelling someone's forum name , it sure is awfully weird
for you to cut someone's name in half. eg: LunaHound , or earlier Villegrimm.
I mean personally im fine with it , i wont get confused , and i know you are talking to me .
So out of curiosity , is kanluwen your real name?

What do you mean, Luna, about the two way street part? Could you explain more?

Manchu wrote:What do you mean, Luna, about the two way street part? Could you explain more?

Earlier when multiple people complained about red shirt's inexperienced sales tactics that leads to a bad end / store experience
he just claimed it must be the customer's fault / attitude / lack of social w/e that caused it.

Then yes now im glad that he is open mind about it to be possible both ways ( hence red shirt can be responsible )

- A Moderator says -
Everbody needs to just calm down a little and accept the fact that different people have different opinions. If you can't participate in the thread in a civil fashion, go find something else to do.

[/end rant]

LunaHound wrote:Lets say the other 100 are vets ( like most of the people in this thread that dislike shopping in gw store for w/e reasons ) actually avoid shopping there?

Veterans aren't GW stores' target audience, so if they stop coming in, that's not really a big problem, at least in GW's eyes.

Kanluwen wrote: It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

There is a difference between interacting and being obnoxious. Some people have a rather deep-seated dislike of a heavy handed sales approach, and won't always react rationally to it. And those people will complain about it. They generally don't do so to the company in question... the customer service experience they've had up to that point gives them no reason to want to interact further with that company.

I would be very surprised if GW aren't fully aware that their sales tactics alienate some customers. What they're looking for is that magic point where the sales they get from the 'hard sell' outweigh the sales they lose from being perceived as pushy and obnoxious.

Grot 6 wrote:I found that it didn't happen after you go into the shop a few times, but from what I gathered, they,( GW) send in a test case to be an asshat to the redshirts, to see if they are on thier toes... Is this true? They actually pay a guy to go around, waste the redshirts time to act like an ass to get a sale out of them?

The 'Secret Shopper' is a fairly widely used tool in retail to ensure that staff are performing adequately. We used to have one in about every 3 months when I was working at Kmart... They would go through the store, assessing the general state of the store, how long they had to wait for service, the manner and appearance of the staff member who helped them, whether that staff member was helpful and sought the 'add-on sale' and a whole host of other things. The store manager would receive a summary report afterwards with a score for how well the store did.

LunaHound wrote:

Manchu wrote:What do you mean, Luna, about the two way street part? Could you explain more?

Earlier when multiple people complained about red shirt's inexperienced sales tactics that leads to a bad end / store experience
he just claimed it must be the customer's fault / attitude / lack of social w/e that caused it.

Then yes now im glad that he is open mind about it to be possible both ways ( hence red shirt can be responsible )

Inferring that it MUST ONLY be the customer's fault/attitude/lack of social skills is bad, mmkay.

People can be jerks when approached by retail staff, especially in specialty stores.
Look at the bad rap EB Games employees get(which, falls ironically...into the same category as what Redshirts get! Overly pushy, trying to sell you what's new...I see a pattern here).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote: - A Moderator says -
Everbody needs to just calm down a little and accept the fact that different people have different opinions. If you can't participate in the thread in a civil fashion, go find something else to do.

[/end rant]

Kanluwen wrote: It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

There is a difference between interacting and being obnoxious. Some people have a rather deep-seated dislike of a heavy handed sales approach, and won't always react rationally to it. And those people will complain about it. They generally don't do so to the company in question... the customer service experience they've had up to that point gives them no reason to want to interact further with that company.

I would be very surprised if GW aren't fully aware that their sales tactics alienate some customers. What they're looking for is that magic point where the sales they get from the 'hard sell' outweigh the sales they lose from being perceived as pushy and obnoxious.

See, my biggest issue is this:
We never hear about people saying "Well, today a redshirt was pushy and mean to me! So, I asked to speak to his manager."
We just hear "Well, today a redshirt was pushy and mean to me! BOYCOTT GW!"

LunaHound wrote:Then yes now im glad that he is open mind about it to be possible both ways ( hence red shirt can be responsible )

Yeah, I'm not sure that it was ever in question that the redshirts do annoy some people to the point of running them off. Kanluwen even said this happened to him once. As insaniak pointed out, there are people who simply do not like the redshirt pitch and will be totally put off by it. I'm saying that the Dakka crowd disproportionately represents this demographic and that they're really overstating how bad an approach it is.

insaniak wrote:What they're looking for is that magic point where the sales they get from the 'hard sell' outweigh the sales they lose from being perceived as pushy and obnoxious.

I think they've already found that point and are practicing it as we type. There are individual deviations and that's where the stories regularly posted on Dakka come from.

I agree with Kanluwen's point that if you are annoyed by something you should complain (in a reasonable way) to the customer service department.

GW or any company can only act on the information available to them.

There is a minority in the minority who regularly send letters off to GW complaining about everything from rules to redshirts. If anything, the information GW is getting seems to tell them "we loose one out of twenty" (made up numbers, don't get excited folks) or whatever kind of ratio that doesn't add up to a crisis for them.

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because they're not. I can tell you from personal experience that sales go up dramatically when every customer who walks through the door is engaged by an employee upon entering the store. Yes, some people get annoyed by this, and will likely not buy anything, but that number is significantly smaller than the number of "no sales" that occur when potential customers are allowed to 'just browse', especially if they're new to the hobby. The price tag is a significant deterrent to getting into a wargame, and unless there's somebody there to tell the potential player/parent exactly what the benefits are, most people will not pay the x amount of (dollars, pounds, etc.) for 'plastic toys'.

LH, we are 100% in agreement and thank you for bringing up the point that most people need convincing (even some wargamers every once in a while) that little plastic men are worth the money GW asks.

I too found the red shirts in Calgary to be a mixed bag. The one out at Scumridge Mall was where I would go to order stuff. Half of the staff were good, but the other half weren't. I think I know the one staff member Fafnir was talking about; He only stops talking to take a swig from the Pepsi Can growing out of his hand.

The GW staff here are great. Always pleasant, helpful and friendly. They never try to push any new releases or anything. Although, one of them looks like a Japanese version of Dermot from the Venture Bros.

Kanluwen wrote:What is your point?

That a customer cannot be wrong?

The customer can be wrong, it's the implication that those in the wrong are mentally ill could be the issue.

But, it does point out that so many of the people who post here seem to be socially dysfunctional it's no wonder you end up with gajillions of posts/non-stop time on here.

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

Simply, people don't mind being greeted in a shop, I've already described what an unwelcoming independent shop is like. But being pestered and badgered to buy various things is just annoying, particularly if they don't back down once it's been made clear you just want to browse alone. I think the hard-sell works better on the kids than it does older folk because younger people are more suggestible. Adults are more likely to know their product and know what they want. I also find that the hard-sell comes from younger salespeople, especially on a saturday and the pitch isn't adapted to anyone other than a 15 year old kid. That's why I rarely go to Games Workshop, I feel so old as to be embarassed, having to squeeze past the kids all leaping up and down shouting "BOOM!" and "WAAARGH" and suffer the miasma of teenage body odour.

If you go in on a quieter weekday things are much calmer, and you often get spoken to with genuine gaming interest rather than the feigned interest shown on a rushed Saturday morning when greeted with "What do you play? That's great, have you seen this latest unrelated release it's really cool?". The impression I get is that when they are busy it's all on script and that's tuned into kids, an adult prefers and adult conversation which isn't what salespeople have the time to engage in, unlike a quiet weekday. And that's where the friction is caused IMO.

Of course, this is caused in part by GWs release strategy. Every month a new army and they have to push it because virtually all the new products are of one army alone. It doesn't apply to historical manufacturers who produce a bit of this and a bit of that meaning there's always something for someone every month. That's not the case with GW, you can collect an army and go months, if not years, before seeing a new release. But it means having stuff pushed at you time and again that you are not interested in. Obviously the teenage level hard sell and the release strategy works for GW because they run a fairly healthy turnover and operate many shops, a lot of older and more experianced players/collectors are just collateral damage.

I did go into one shop a couple of years back and when asked what I did I said that I did various things but I'd just finished some Chaos Squats, honest enough response. I think it floored him, the look I got was very odd and he he responded with "ummm...ok" and shot off to deal with some other customers.

Wait, with all this talk of gw making us buy more does that mean their business is going down hill?

Ketara wrote:Here's how I counter it.

GW Employee: 'Hey there, have you seen our latest product X?'
Me: 'You must get so bored having to say that over and over again to all the customers'.
GW Employee:'Yeah, tell em about it. I swear, I dream about saying it these days'.
Me: 'That bad huh? You got long left on your shift?'
GW Employee: 'Rest of the day unfortunately.../Only an hour or so!'
Me: *begins generic natter about anything from weather to models*

People don't usually enjoy working, if you show a bit of sympathy to them, they usually cut out all the sales claptrap to talk about themselves. Which usually takes half the time, and means you all get along a lot better, as its more like a real conversation.

Remember, they don't WANT to talk about the new stompa for hours on end, they're told to by their bosses.

This really does work best. Ive worked retail for a number of years and that is basically the truest truth you can get lol. The nearest GW to me is about an hour away, so I RARELY go in there. Last time it was pretty annoying, was asked about what I play and such, so while I was in the middle of explaining my CSM chapter, I was cut off to be told about some new army crap that I wouldnt ever play. It was more then annoying to be honest lol

I think the 'hard sell' tactic is due to the very nature of a GW store. A lot of people will go into the shop not knowing exactly what it is that goes on in there, this makes it even more important for one of the staff to go over and run a basic sales spiel.

Think about it, if someone goes into a bar, they obviously want some booze, so all the staff have to do is sit behind the counter and pull pints. Same goes for a computer game store etc...

Because Wargaming is a fairly niche hobby the amount of people who need to be educated as to what the shop actually sells is going to be far higher than in other areas of retail. This leads to them needing an aggressive
sales pitch so they can bag as many sales as possible.

When i moved to Chester and started frequenting the local GW i did get the usual 'Hiya buddy; what are you after today?', 'can i help you choose something for your army?', etc... As soon as i said i played SoB, i was directed to the internet terminal and left alone

Now that i've been going in regularly, all the staff do is occasionally ask if i need glue, paints, GS and the like. Which i don't mind as i can be a bit scatterbrained.

The only time i've ever had the 'Look at this! Isn't it cool? Why not buy one?' speech was in GW manchester when the Stompa had just been released. I could see why the guy was trying to push it, but seeing as i was holding a box of seraphim and an immolator kit it should have been clear that it wasn't going to be a sale.

The problem with the redshirt sales tactics is that GW are trying to turn awkward nerds into high-pressure sales types. The jittery, pushy interpersonal behaviour that emerges from the resulting cognitive dissonance can be fascinating to watch and very uncomfortable to get trapped in.

You can just short-circuit the whole agonising experience of The Rules Card by smiling broadly at all the staff and waving hello as soon as you enter the shop. Then they relax and leave you alone.

Then when they're not looking, get your knob out.

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

...what?

By the way, Luna and Kanluwen, YOU HAVE MET DIFFERENT SALESMEN! Accept that Luna met the 16 years old TFG in a red shirt, while Kanluwen met normal people
Third edit: Well, i noticed im a little late. But my point stands.

Lordhat wrote:

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because they're not. I can tell you from personal experience that sales go up dramatically when every customer who walks through the door is engaged by an employee upon entering the store. Yes, some people get annoyed by this, and will likely not buy anything, but that number is significantly smaller than the number of "no sales" that occur when potential customers are allowed to 'just browse', especially if they're new to the hobby. The price tag is a significant deterrent to getting into a wargame, and unless there's somebody there to tell the potential player/parent exactly what the benefits are, most people will not pay the x amount of (dollars, pounds, etc.) for 'plastic toys'.

There is alot of good explination of the "Hard Sell" horror that people are being on about here. A good explanation of a few other things, as well...
good points on this post.

Zoned wrote:I love all you armchair store owners. I suppose if you ran a store your plan for your staff would be:

1) Let the customers wander around.
2) Don't talk to them.
3) Don't try to help them find things.
4) Don't ask about their involvement in the hobby.
5) Don't ask them if they need hobby supplies.
6) Don't talk about new releases.
7) Don't tell them about the events the shop is running.

That's a sure fire way to keep the store in business.

Well, consdering I do run a small retail business that has nothing to do with gaming, I can honestly say, yes there are other and perhaps better ways to sell and close other than the hard sell.

There's a difference between acknowleging the customer, and follwing them around the store badgering them about stuff.

Perhaps it just might be my line of work, but you ackowelege their precense witha hello, or even a simple nod, then you judge whether they need help or not. SOmetime folks really do prefer to look in peace and quiet for a bit, and then you can tell by body laguage that their ready to be interacted with. Sometimes I ask if they need help and they say just looking, I simply tell them to yell out if they do, and do some paper work, but still keep an eye on them because they may have questions.

The hard sell can work, but it can drive away sales too. You have to know when to press and when to back off.