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I would agree with Dash on the point that that is niether your list, and its doubtful that you own it. While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

Eidolon wrote:I would agree with Dash on the point that that is niether your list, and its doubtful that you own it.

I would also agree with the point that it was not my list, seeing how I quoted someone else and provided a link to someone else's website. I don't, however, think this detracts from the inherent strength of the list. If you want to discuss specifics of the list, I can provide my input and quote/forward your question to the list creator.

Eidolon wrote:While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

This list is far from tailored to defeat mech Orks. Visit the link provided for more information and discussion regarding its construction and use. It is designed as a take all comers tournament army.

Again, the list has 84 Strength 6 shots and 9 Strenth 8 AP 2 shots going downrange. In addition it has 15 meltaguns in transports that negate the strength of opposing armies' meltaguns.

Five Fire Dragons on AV 14 that gets a cover save doesn't seem optimal odds to me (though you do have then the third squad to toss in as long as you pop one of the two wagons). If that doesn't work you end up having to play the side armor game with your other vehicles.

Certainly if you can pop the wagons that list has enough firepower to put some meaty holes in a bunch of footsloggin' Orks. As we've been saying, mobile shooty armies like DE and regular E are going to have good percentages to win versus this Ork list. That is certainly an Eldar list that could do once it was parsed down to meet the 1850 requirement (drop a Vyper from each squad, as mentioned, also looks like you could sack one of the Dragon squads to do so).

It's not really any more or less of a slam dunk then DE Raider spam vs. the Ork list in my opinion though. (I think it would stand a better chance against my regular DE list then dash's Ork list - but then I loathe having to deal with hordes of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons with DE)


Dash - a quick rundown of Eldar in that list would be -

A trio of melta and melta bomb armed squads (fire Dragons) in a fast skimmer transport. Their melta bombs probably won't help them much as they'll never really be in a position to assault you since with open tops your trukk boyz will always be able to out threat distance them. Each of their transposrts also has a BS 3 twinlinked bright lance (Str 8 counts AV over 12 as 12) guns on them. WIth only three of them he'll be hard pressed to rip open your

However, he then also has a horde of what basically amounts to Land Speeders with pairs of Assault 3 Str 6 guns on them. His firepower will be slightly limited by how much he needs to move, but he'll be able to chew open trukks like a pro.

Finally the three Dire Avengers squads in Falcons rounds out the list - giving him mobile objective grabbers as well as a nasty trio of shooting skimmer tanks and some of the best all around troops Eldar can field.

The list is all around pretty darn solid, and I have actually fought something very similar to it once in a tourney finals match (I lost, but it was close and really with all of our high damage output low damage input skimmers it really did just sort of come down to how some reserve rolls worked out)

It's biggest question is whether or not it can deal with your Wagons expediently. If it can pop the Wagons then it ought to be able to dance around you pretty easily and just shred trukks as you try to run down their fast units (much akin to how a good DE player would probably have you chasing Raiders all over the map). Falcons are pretty damn annoying to pop, and your boarding plank strategy will not feel quite as effective versus them.

It's not a slam dunk, but if the two armies fought I'd put my money on the elves. I do disagree with kadun's strategy with the list - I'd probably just split my army into two forces and obligate you to give me side or rear armor with one of those forces. The other one ought to be fast enough to mostly escape unscathed since de-meching eldar is tough, and it would allow my Str 6 shots to get to chew into the BWs pathetically weak side and rear armor which would be much easier to destroy then playing around with meltas on the AV 14 front.

I would first like to appoligise and clairify what now looks like my own obstinence, I thought you were discounting the boys a a threat all together once they were out of the trukk. I'm sorry for my confusion. So right now we have come up with 3 genres of lists that we think could give the op list a good run for it's money. They are as follows, and plaes correct me if I'm wrong;

1. A very mobile army feilding many AT weapons. There are several specific examples on this thread, mostly eldar and DE armies. Basicaly running and gunning, dropping the BW and trukks to isolate infantry.

2. Armies using extreme heavy armour, like LR spam. Capitalising on a lack of really heavy anti-tank capibilities, and also being able to kill large portions of units each turn.

3. An all hoard army. Thus making the fast CC troops less effective by tarpiting them (can I use that as a verb?)

I would also like to add that this thread has been very informative and interesting to me. Thank you to all who helped this thread.

kadun wrote:

Eidolon wrote:While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

This list is far from tailored to defeat mech Orks. Visit the link provided for more information and discussion regarding its construction and use. It is designed as a take all comers tournament army.

Again, the list has 84 Strength 6 shots and 9 Strenth 8 AP 2 shots going downrange. In addition it has 15 meltaguns in transports that negate the strength of opposing armies' meltaguns.

Negates meltaguns while running around with AV 12, which means lascannons and most large guns on vehicles can pop holes in them pretty handily. I do agree with Eidolon that a good IG list ought to eat up Stelek's Eldar list pretty functionally. I think the list would probably do okay versus Vulkan - but then I'm really dismissive towards Vulkan so I might be biased (I just think a lot of less talented players always seem to be the ones showing up with Vulkan lists, so you don't often see it played optimally). It's a very good anti-horde list with some pretty good anti-mech tech built into it. But a heavy mech list strikes me as its weakness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

despoiler52 wrote:1. A very mobile army feilding many AT weapons. There are several specific examples on this thread, mostly eldar and DE armies. Basicaly running and gunning, dropping the BW and trukks to isolate infantry.

2. Armies using extreme heavy armour, like LR spam. Capitalising on a lack of really heavy anti-tank capibilities, and also being able to kill large portions of units each turn.

3. An all hoard army. Thus making the fast CC troops less effective by tarpiting them (can I use that as a verb?)

I think that probably sums it up quite well. I might slightly question all horde - since assaulting Orks beats most other horde archetypes I can think of, but certainly with enough bodies the counter charges could seal the deal.

I also think we've just managed to roughly outline the meta game as our answer. IG, mech Space Marines, Mechdar, and Mech Ork with horde kinda lurking around on the periphery.

despoiler52 wrote:I would also like to add that this thread has been very informative and interesting to me. Thank you to all who helped this thread.

I do second this - interesting thread.

As for hoard I'm thinking of other orks, mabye nids. Basicaly anything that can shrug off 24 boys, and then counter ferociously.

Thor665 wrote:

kadun wrote:

Eidolon wrote:While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

This list is far from tailored to defeat mech Orks. Visit the link provided for more information and discussion regarding its construction and use. It is designed as a take all comers tournament army.

Again, the list has 84 Strength 6 shots and 9 Strenth 8 AP 2 shots going downrange. In addition it has 15 meltaguns in transports that negate the strength of opposing armies' meltaguns.

Negates meltaguns while running around with AV 12, which means lascannons and most large guns on vehicles can pop holes in them pretty handily. I do agree with Eidolon that a good IG list ought to eat up Stelek's Eldar list pretty functionally. I think the list would probably do okay versus Vulkan - but then I'm really dismissive towards Vulkan so I might be biased (I just think a lot of less talented players always seem to be the ones showing up with Vulkan lists, so you don't often see it played optimally). It's a very good anti-horde list with some pretty good anti-mech tech built into it. But a heavy mech list strikes me as its weakness.

Actually "lascannons and most large guns on vehicles" will be Strength 8 max vs the Serpents. I actually play what I consider a "good IG list" and I don't think I can walk Stelek's Viper list. We both have a tremendous amounts of firepower at range and lots of meltaguns in close. IMHO it will come down to generalship and luck in a good IG list vs a good Eldar list. Mech Eldar vs Mech Ork, however, I think the pointy ears have a decided advantage.

Nids seem like they might give this list issues. I could be wrong but that seems like a tough match up. Given the nature of the new codex with the rumored shooty abilities this kind of ork list might become a thing of the past

I still say Str 8 versus AV 12 pops things pretty handily. I'll admit I play DE so I might have a mind that works that way - but I'll happily take those chances all day long. You don't need melta to frag AV 12.

I think IG vs. Eldar and Eldar vs. Orks in both cases tends to come down to the quality of the list and the general. I don't see either match up as a gimme for a bad general versus a competent one. However with two equal generals I personally believe that IG have the advantage over Mechdar - certainly as much as you seem to feel Eldar have the edge over Orks (to which I would probably agree guardedly. If the generals are equally good it can still be an advantage to the Ork player if neither is too good. Orks are simpler to master the basics of then Eldar)

despoiler, I don't think horde orks can compete here. Neither math-hammer nor actual experience support it, but I'll go into a bit more detail:

The optimal ork horde is comprised of shoota boys. On foot, being able to double-tap what you're about to assault is the optimal build. When you put an ork horde on the table...they have a HUGE footprint. 30 boys next to 30 boys takes up an incredible amount of space; putting 1750 or 1850 worth of boys on your table for pitched battle takes up...pretty much the whole deployment zone. My point is that the counterattack isn't really viable. Picking one side of the board and assaulting up it really negates the ability of the rest of the horde to support what's under attack because of distance and model density on the table.

And for that single unit of trukk boyz vs. a 30 boy ork squad:

12 shots shooting: 4 hits, two wounds, two dead orks. 12 slugga boys assault 28 shoota boys. Since the slugga boys have furious charge, they strike before the orks they're assaulting.

Offense: 44 attacks. 22 hits. 11 wounds. 9.24 dead orks (10). That leaves you with 18 orks striking back.

Defense: 34 attacks. 17 STR3 hits. 5.61 wounds (6). 5 dead orks.

Statistically my nob will kill two orks and yours will kill one. Total tally for a single round of combat: You have 16 orks left and I have 6 orks left, and you've lost by 6. You're fearless and take 6 armor saves, losing 5 more. Its now 6 vs 10 for the next round of combat and we go simultaneously - you have 18 attacks and I have 15 attacks - pretty even. Think on that. 12 boys assaulted 30 boys and came out even.

Realistically, you might be using slugga boys on foot instead of shoota boys (god forbid), but tossing a second trukk boy squad into the mix to make it 24 vs 30 will end the debate, and again...there's simply too much model density and intervening terrain for the rest of the army to get into support - especially if the burna boys light up the next squad over - which will end the entire squad. In a straight head to head fight, dropping four squads of trukk boys against two 30 boy mobs and using the burna boys to eat up the next mob in line is pretty standard, and if the battlewagon can put 5-6 models under the template, multiple that by 15....chances are that the squad is done.

Having played tyranids and horde orks aplenty...I just can't take them seriously as a threat anymore. Burna boys really *are* that good against those two armies. Monstrous creatures, genestealers, horde orks...you name it - burna boys will deal with it.

Eidolon wrote:Nids seem like they might give this list issues. I could be wrong but that seems like a tough match up. Given the nature of the new codex with the rumored shooty abilities this kind of ork list might become a thing of the past

You are right here. I forget what weapon it is, but the 'nids have a weapon that can only do penetrating hits against open-topped vehicles. I've lost a few wagons in my time to this thing.

Not for long...with a nice unit or 2 of hive guard we will finally be able to open transports. Check out my list on page 1...I still think it has the capacity for serious damage, even if it's soon to be dated.

Dashofpepper wrote:despoiler, I don't think horde orks can compete here. Neither math-hammer nor actual experience support it, but I'll go into a bit more detail:

The optimal ork horde is comprised of shoota boys. On foot, being able to double-tap what you're about to assault is the optimal build. When you put an ork horde on the table...they have a HUGE footprint. 30 boys next to 30 boys takes up an incredible amount of space; putting 1750 or 1850 worth of boys on your table for pitched battle takes up...pretty much the whole deployment zone. My point is that the counterattack isn't really viable. Picking one side of the board and assaulting up it really negates the ability of the rest of the horde to support what's under attack because of distance and model density on the table.

And for that single unit of trukk boyz vs. a 30 boy ork squad:

12 shots shooting: 4 hits, two wounds, two dead orks. 12 slugga boys assault 28 shoota boys. Since the slugga boys have furious charge, they strike before the orks they're assaulting.

Offense: 44 attacks. 22 hits. 11 wounds. 9.24 dead orks (10). That leaves you with 18 orks striking back.

Defense: 34 attacks. 17 STR3 hits. 5.61 wounds (6). 5 dead orks.

Statistically my nob will kill two orks and yours will kill one. Total tally for a single round of combat: You have 16 orks left and I have 6 orks left, and you've lost by 6. You're fearless and take 6 armor saves, losing 5 more. Its now 6 vs 10 for the next round of combat and we go simultaneously - you have 18 attacks and I have 15 attacks - pretty even. Think on that. 12 boys assaulted 30 boys and came out even.

Realistically, you might be using slugga boys on foot instead of shoota boys (god forbid), but tossing a second trukk boy squad into the mix to make it 24 vs 30 will end the debate, and again...there's simply too much model density and intervening terrain for the rest of the army to get into support - especially if the burna boys light up the next squad over - which will end the entire squad. In a straight head to head fight, dropping four squads of trukk boys against two 30 boy mobs and using the burna boys to eat up the next mob in line is pretty standard, and if the battlewagon can put 5-6 models under the template, multiple that by 15....chances are that the squad is done.

Having played tyranids and horde orks aplenty...I just can't take them seriously as a threat anymore. Burna boys really *are* that good against those two armies. Monstrous creatures, genestealers, horde orks...you name it - burna boys will deal with it.

Most Ork hoard armys use a kan wall which you will usally hit first which gives the 30 deep mob behind them the actual charge. even with the boarding plank you might put down two kans per klaw but it would take every klaw in your army to kill them all and then youve lost your charge.

Grimgob wrote:

Most Ork hoard armys use a kan wall which you will usally hit first which gives the 30 deep mob behind them the actual charge. even with the boarding plank you might put down two kans per klaw but it would take every klaw in your army to kill them all and then youve lost your charge.

A kan-wall is a different army type than a green tide, which is what he was referring to. As for the Kan-wall, I'd be happy to smack my trukks and battlewagons into a kan-wall and beat up on them over my boarding planks. So I kill a bunch of kans and defuse a significant chunk of the orks, while I'm still in my trukks...and the ork response is going to be to...shoot at and assault my trukks? 6+ to hit, 6+ to glance...I'll take my chances. Even if I get dumped out of a couple of them, I'm going to get the charge next turn and I haven't lost my assault. The assault. THE Assault is the one where Ghazghkull declares the Waaaugh! and my army pours out of their transports and into the thick of it.

Anyway, I don't mean to get into theoryhammer here; there are some genuinely good things posted here, but Orks simply don't scare me.

I'm also surprised that no one has brought up a mech sisters list. Something like the following

HQ
1 Canoness w/ eviscerator, book of st. lucius
3 Celestians w/ bolters
2 Celestians w/ melta guns
1 Immolator w/ smoke, extra armor

1 Canoness w/ eviscerator, book of st. lucius
3 Celestians w/ bolters
2 Celestians w/ melta guns
1 Immolator w/ smoke, extra armor

Elite
3 Celestians w/ bolters
2 Celestians w/ melta guns
1 Immolator w/ smoke, extra armor

Troops
7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

Heavy Support
1 Exorcist w/ smoke
1 Exorcist w/ smoke
1 Exorcist w/ smoke


The exorcists will sit at range and just start dumping 3d6 str8 ap1 shots into the trucks. If you do get close with some trucks the immolators, with their tl heavy flamer's, and all the melta weapons will down the trukk's that make it through and the sisters squad will mop up an ork trukk boyz mob that isn't in it's vehicle. This one would come down to alot of positioning and maneuvering for advantage.

Hammer heads....lots and lots of hammerheads.

1. Hammerheads....lol. Wait, hammerheads? Lol.

2. Sisters of Battle - I actually just fought these this past weekend.....in a list that looks a *LOT* like that one. I got first turn, and one exorcist died on turn 1 due to a deffkopta shooting and then assaulting its rear armor. Snikrot came out on turn2 and killed a second one. Those D6 missiles though....*shudders* I'd be curious to know what would happen if I hadn't gotten first turn. As it was, I rolled up and boarding planked 3-4 of his vehicles and disembarked them on turn 2, then followed up with a mopup operation turns 3-4. His Canoness met Ghazghkull on the Waaaugh! on turn 3, and didn't live despite the faith-based invul save.

Not saying that I can mop up sisters whenever I want, but at least I've played these a few times.

Dashofpepper wrote:despoiler, I don't think horde orks can compete here. Neither math-hammer nor actual experience support it, but I'll go into a bit more detail:

The optimal ork horde is comprised of shoota boys. On foot, being able to double-tap what you're about to assault is the optimal build. When you put an ork horde on the table...they have a HUGE footprint. 30 boys next to 30 boys takes up an incredible amount of space; putting 1750 or 1850 worth of boys on your table for pitched battle takes up...pretty much the whole deployment zone. My point is that the counterattack isn't really viable. Picking one side of the board and assaulting up it really negates the ability of the rest of the horde to support what's under attack because of distance and model density on the table.

And for that single unit of trukk boyz vs. a 30 boy ork squad:

12 shots shooting: 4 hits, two wounds, two dead orks. 12 slugga boys assault 28 shoota boys. Since the slugga boys have furious charge, they strike before the orks they're assaulting.

Offense: 44 attacks. 22 hits. 11 wounds. 9.24 dead orks (10). That leaves you with 18 orks striking back.

Defense: 34 attacks. 17 STR3 hits. 5.61 wounds (6). 5 dead orks.

Statistically my nob will kill two orks and yours will kill one. Total tally for a single round of combat: You have 16 orks left and I have 6 orks left, and you've lost by 6. You're fearless and take 6 armor saves, losing 5 more. Its now 6 vs 10 for the next round of combat and we go simultaneously - you have 18 attacks and I have 15 attacks - pretty even. Think on that. 12 boys assaulted 30 boys and came out even.

Realistically, you might be using slugga boys on foot instead of shoota boys (god forbid), but tossing a second trukk boy squad into the mix to make it 24 vs 30 will end the debate, and again...there's simply too much model density and intervening terrain for the rest of the army to get into support - especially if the burna boys light up the next squad over - which will end the entire squad. In a straight head to head fight, dropping four squads of trukk boys against two 30 boy mobs and using the burna boys to eat up the next mob in line is pretty standard, and if the battlewagon can put 5-6 models under the template, multiple that by 15....chances are that the squad is done.

Having played tyranids and horde orks aplenty...I just can't take them seriously as a threat anymore. Burna boys really *are* that good against those two armies. Monstrous creatures, genestealers, horde orks...you name it - burna boys will deal with it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I'm really mad, not beacuse of your statments, but beacuse of technical malfunctions that lead me to right this 3 times. It is considerably smaller then it used to be. Mabye that's a good thing.

Many people love shootas, I don't so my list will consist of mostly sluggas, since there are 4 mobs of 30, I'd say 1 would be shootas. And looking at your army across the table I'd put the sluggas in the front for sure. I'll mathhammer latter, now to tactics. First off my boys would not be unable to support one another, if you do as you say and double up on one group then another will sweep in and wreak revenge. Thus making it 60 vs 24, or as a total 120 vs 48. All of this is rendered moot by the arrangement of this hoard.

I have at my disposale 120 boys, in 4 groups, as you said this would cover a huge footprint, your lack of ranged blast templates would make me very happy indeed. Anywho in front of this hoard there would be two units of grots (62 models), this is my "buffer". To get to my boys you must go throught this. You have three options at this point.

1. You can shoot the crap out of the grots to remove them as a threat, mabye not a great plan as I;d reach you before they were dead. Then it's a numbers game.

2. You can assault the grots themselves. This would kill a feth load of grots, few of your boys, but they would stay, and hold you back. Probalbly, if they don't then you will be shot at (alot) then charged by the boys standing behind them. If they do hold you then I will charge you with the boys anyways, won't get to shoot you, but hey, you always get what you want. Once combat is joined shooting counts for very little, as your templates can't go through a combat.

3. You could always be sneaky, and try and ram your way through. Luckily for me I have this "buffer in your way. I no way do I expect it to actually stop your rampaging trukks. When you charge through my gorts they will probably fail LD (50/50) then I'll gobble a couple grots to keep em in line. To move out of your way they will litterly envolpe your trukk. At first this seems like nothing I mean what can grots do? Want they do do is stop you from disembarking, with a solid wall of boys in front, and semi-solid mass of grots on both sides, there is a very real risk of not being able to place 12 models within 2" of the trukk. Then you are stuck and will be charged. If you do get out you will be within 1" of my grots. You must charge them, but since my grots are in front of the boys, you can't charge right through them so they are not in combat. The combat that follows will be one-sided. But that's ok, I got plenty more grots. Anyways, you will either be stuck in combat with this tarpit, in which case I charge you with the boys behind the grots. Or you kill them all in which case I shoot you, then charge you.


Your template are a very real threat, but to get at the boys you will have to get very close, (due to the screening grots, then you kill some stuff, I retaliate resulting in a huge combat all over the board. The burnas are still a big threat, they simply would not kill enogh to equalise.

There would be CC by turn 2, and I simply have way more men. I'm not saying that there is no chance, simply that it would be a close game, and one that I think my vast numbers would give me an advantage.

Well that's my two cents. Hope you enjoyed it.

Despoiler, its really hard to theoryhammer a game out...but look man....

Either your grots are close to your orks or they are not.

1. If your gretchin are providing a close screen to your orks, then I can tank shock into them and kill one or both units of them in addition to a squad of orks via the burna boys per turn.

2. If your gretchin are providing a far screen, then I can burna the crap out of your gretchin and end them in a turn without fearing much reprisal from your orks.

All in all...like I said - the model density and the easy of maneuvering around a horde army simply make me unafraid of horde orks. I don't know where you get the idea that I'll charge into gretchin, get tarpitted and then suffer a countercharge? If 12 boys charge into 30 gretchin, they're going to get surrounded and mobbed; there isn't going to be room for a subsequent wave of orks counter-charge in and hit the boys. If you're playing a close screen, see point number 1. If I kill enough to open a hole, at the end of combat you still have to move into coherency and consolidate into base contact meaning that your boys still aren't getting into combat.

I'm not sure what to tell you, but I've played against some *very* good players who use horde orks and absolutely monstrously tabled them, repeatedly. I'm not sure there is anything you could possible do to convince me that horde orks are a threat to my mechanized orks, and I'd be willing to put any amount of money onto a game to prove it. =p

I love your dedication to your style. To adress the first point (not being able to charge past my clobbered grots) lets talk to the math.

12 boys charge (you said before that you would probably double up, but what ever, I'll stick with this)
44 attacks (nob come latter) 3+ hot hit
29.333333333333333333332 hits (lets round down shall we) 2+ to wound
24.166666666666666666664, since I get no save that means that that's 24 kills.

I have 7 models left, 2 rutherds, 5 grots. If you'd like we can figure out their counter attack, but that's not the point, I also would be any amount of money on being able to move past 7 models.

As for the rest, well I seem to be unable to convince you. All I can really add is that I have played mech orks with hoard orks (at 1000 points) but the tactic was the same, I won, I can't vouche for their skill. But that is so subjective that right right now it seems irrelavant. Again, I'm simpli saying that your list+my list, will not be a massacre in either dirrection.

While your math-hammering is sound...I thought I made it clear that I wouldn't disembark to pile into your gretchin. I'd flame them until they were gone.

Dashofpepper wrote:If 12 boys charge into 30 gretchin, they're going to get surrounded and mobbed; there isn't going to be room for a subsequent wave of orks counter-charge in and hit the boys. If you're playing a close screen, see point number 1. If I kill enough to open a hole, at the end of combat you still have to move into coherency and consolidate into base contact meaning that your boys still aren't getting into combat.

The idea of charging a unit, sticking to it through your combat phase and finishing it off in your opponent's is solid. It's a good idea, and probably the best outcome for any assault unit since it keeps you safe from shooting without impeding your movement.

... buuuut if you think the grots won't just run away after one round and leave you stranded, you're grasping at straws.

Even if they don't, it wouldn't work out that way. Here's an example, going off of the estimated 24 casualties above.

Orks charge! 6", you must make contact with as many models as possible. No bunching up to increase your chances of being surrounded.



Grots pile in. 6", making contact with as many models as possible and where not possible moving to a place they'd be able to make their attacks.



Orks swing! I pull as many grots that aren't in base contact as possible in order to minimize the number of pile in moves you get to make.



Now here's the important part. Only models that are no longer engaged make pile in moves, and you only must maintain coherency if you have to move (ie, you have 2 dudes from one squad stuck at opposite ends of a combat but still in base to base, they don't have to move for coherency). The player whose turn it is moves first (that's you) and you must make base contact with as many models as possible. After this, ONLY IF there are still enemy models unengaged do they pile in and then only the ones who aren't engaged.



So, the grots are supposed to wrap around... you? Look like kind of the opposite, lol.

While your math-hammering is sound...I thought I made it clear that I wouldn't disembark to pile into your gretchin. I'd flame them until they were gone.

With the one template hefting unit in your army. You put down one unit that's more threatening than anything else on the table, it will always die first. Not exactly something you can rely on.

Dashofpepper wrote:1. Hammerheads....lol. Wait, hammerheads? Lol.

2. Sisters of Battle - I actually just fought these this past weekend.....in a list that looks a *LOT* like that one. I got first turn, and one exorcist died on turn 1 due to a deffkopta shooting and then assaulting its rear armor. Snikrot came out on turn2 and killed a second one. Those D6 missiles though....*shudders* I'd be curious to know what would happen if I hadn't gotten first turn. As it was, I rolled up and boarding planked 3-4 of his vehicles and disembarked them on turn 2, then followed up with a mopup operation turns 3-4. His Canoness met Ghazghkull on the Waaaugh! on turn 3, and didn't live despite the faith-based invul save.

Not saying that I can mop up sisters whenever I want, but at least I've played these a few times.

What was the mission type against the sister's player?
There is just so much wrong with what you just said! Not on how you played it out but by the sister's player. The only time you have exorcists in front is if you are playing against someone with loota's. Did he know you had a kopta?

You either set up like this. Which means that snikrot and kopta's can only attack rhino's. With the vehicle but's touching the line.
ro i i i ro
ro x x x ro

or like this, if in a corner.

ro rp
ro i i i
ro x x x with the corner being here.

ro = rhino
i = immolator
x = exorcist
Only time you don't do that is if it's the scenario where you each have an objective in the middle. But even with that he shouldn't be allowing a charge from a kopter on turn 1.

grankobot, have you played as or against mechanized orks before? The scenario you just outlined is pretty much impossible.

A squad of orks gets out of a trukk and deploys within 2" of the vehicle - that's generally two inches deep making a semi-circle around the front of the trukk, or lined up against the side, or however you choose to get them out. A straight line across of 12 boys isn't physically possible. a squad of boyz dumping out of a trukk moving in to assault some gretchin is going to be 3-4 across and 3-4 deep, not 12 across in a rank. With a little simple maneuvering, you can even make it so that only one rank of boys (2-3 if you like) make it into base with the gretchin, and they have a 6" consolidate to try making it into base contact as much as possible. All I'm trying to say is that I've DONE this before, many times - I've played against Horde orks. Time after time. I appreciate the input for them and your thoughts on how they might give me trouble....but out of the armies that I can play time after time and absolutely thrash....I count both horde orks and tyranids among them. =p

This is the second time now you've posted a vassal scenario using completely unlikely scenarios - the previous one was a mechanized ork force running up the middle of the board pell-mell into a Tau gunline strongpoint on a field conveniently absent of terrain, with the orks conveniently making sure to optimize range against them for units firing on them....*laughing* Maybe you should stop with the Vassal layouts.

The point is not how the dudes are lined up against eachother. The point is that though you start with 30 grots, you end with 6 or 7.

6 dudes don't surround 12.

Anyway, other posts welcome!

I'm going to see if a friend of mine will assemble that space wolves list for a friendly game with me this weekend.

I guess this is simply a time when my experiences and your experiences do not match up. You claim to destroy ork hoards with your mech orks, I claim to destroy mech orks with my ork hoard. We've both explained our points and seem to disagree. Although at this point I considre the back and forth argument over (as we will have to agree to disagree) please refrain from being overly dismisive.

Anyways enogh of that, please tell us how your game goes, if possible right a report and post the link here.

I'm curious how my tau feeding frenzy army would work against you, I'm pretty sure it would come down to who got first turn but the army is basically as follows

HQ
Shas'el
Missile Pod
AFP
Plasma Rifle
HW drone controller
x2 shield drones
HW multi-Tracker
HW Targeting Array
Bonding knife

Shas'el
Missile Pod
Plasma Rifle
CIB
HW Drone Controller
HW Targetting Array
HW Multi-Tracker
Bonding knife

Troop
Fire Warrior x6
Devilfish
SMS
Disruption Pod

Fire Warrior x6
(steals Pathfinder fish)

Elites
Fireknife x3
PR/MP
Multi-Tracker
Teamleader
(first 'el attaches)

Firestorm x2
MP/Burst Cannon
Multi-Tracker
Team Leader
(2nd 'el attaches)

Fast Attack
Piranah x4
fusion blaster
flechette dischargers
targeting array

Piranah x4
Fusion Blaster
Flechette Dischargers
Targeting Array

Pathfinders x7
Devilfish
SMS
Disruption Pod

Heavy Support
Broadside x2
Team Leader
Bonding Knife
Advanced Stabilization System
HW drone controller
Shield Drone x2

Snikrot would eat my broadsides but probably not before they took out at least 1 of your BW (I would aim for whatever had the KFF in it) and then once my piranahs have your army suitably boxed in I can take them apart piecemeal. If you choose to charge the piranahs then the squad will most likely go poof.

I think it would be a lot of fun to find out what would happen though!

You run a Tau list....along the same lines that I do. Not quite the same but similar enough.

The problem is that even if the Tau go first...and despite the KFF, you markerlight away saves and de-mobilize even most of the army in turn1 and turn2...even if its an 1850 game and your first two turns put down an entire 1,000 points of my army....the other 850 points assaulting 1850 points worth of tau are enough to do the trick.

That's how bad they are in close combat.

grankobot wrote:But if you were playing the Tau it would be like the unstoppable force meeting with the immovable object and the world as we know it would cease to be, right?

Made me laugh so hard. Also I found it extra funny beacuse I was reading black library 5 minutes ago, and that is the exact line were I stopped.