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Too much OT lurking. It makes me bitter as well.

Everything. GW is another evil company from the business district of hell. Its quite lovely there apart from the toture and red shirt guys coming in and asking for some models

A very interesting topic, indeed.

I think the major issue is that the studio seems somewhat disconnected from how the games are actually played as opposed to how they're designed. In some respects, this is completely natural. The GW employees, for the most part, play against each other and thus the studio becomes its own little echo chamber. These forums and the tournaments provide some insight, though it's easy to view these players as the exception rather than the rule.

I work in a similar industry and this is REALLY easy to let happen. And, in a situation where people actually need to get out and find new players...well, that compounds the issue.

But I'm making a GIANT assumption that's shaped by my group and my constant lurking on 40k sites: namely, that the game drives the sales. That people buy the models to play, not just to paint. GW could have data otherwise (certainly, the focus in White Dwarf seems to indicate they think painting is at least as, if not more important than, the games).

I don't think people would buy lots of nearly identical models to paint unless they were formed into armies in order to play the games. GW recognises this by the emphasis on Troops in 5e, which is intended to sell more models.

People who are interested in painting want a variety of figures. Space Hulk would appeal more to this type of user because all the models are individual.

I think the problem is that people who are into über-competitive rules-intensive tournament play expect the rules to be catered to them and perfectly balanced; being a casual player I don't pay such close attention to balance and if there's ever any rules confusion we resolve it in-house, with a D6 roll if need be.

Owain wrote:I think the problem is that people who are into über-competitive rules-intensive tournament play expect the rules to be catered to them and perfectly balanced

Even by casual standards GW's rules are terribly written and presented. It has nothing to do with these near-mythical "über-competitive rules-intensive tournament" players.

Its easier to ask, 'whats right about GW?'

Then I can say nice miniatures and an OK background. I also like that they haven't outsourced core production to China, but keep factories in the UK - I actually respect them for that.

The grimdark goes too far and too cliche though conversely its resisted political correctness - which I also respect.

As for whats wrong: just about everything else.

What's wrong with GW?

People thinking GW is their best pal and confidant and not a corporation.

A few posts removed for flaming and personal attacks, Users are reminded to be polite to each other.

Orlanth wrote:The grimdark goes too far and too cliche though conversely its resisted political correctness - which I also respect.

They've done lots of things to soften in up and take away the non PC things, like getting rid of suicide bombers, making daemonettes put their boobs away, getting rid of the Fimir for reproducing via rape. That's probably the reason they want to overhaul Dark Eldar, the killing and raping stuff doesn't fit their core market. I'm suprised they even allowed it in for 3rd edition because the game has become less adult orientated since the introduction of 3rd edition. The 40k universe is only superficially grimdark, they just puts skulls on stuff, the really nasty stuff has had its teeth pulled.

Double post

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Orlanth wrote:The grimdark goes too far and too cliche though conversely its resisted political correctness - which I also respect.

They've done lots of things to soften in up and take away the non PC things, like getting rid of suicide bombers, making daemonettes put their boobs away, getting rid of the Fimir for reproducing via rape. That's probably the reason they want to overhaul Dark Eldar, the killing and raping stuff doesn't fit their core market.

No human bombs, I accept this one.
Daemonette resculpts, ok, but there was a general change in artistic vision and GW has never been much into nudity. The Asdrubaal Vect slaves , in tame poses are all you get. I have no problem with that, too many game compaznies are all tits and chainmail lingerie. In most fantasy art and miniatures design girls dress down even if they were full plate. The amount of time I see plate steel corsets and naked shoulders-upper chest, count as plate mail.... those girls wouldnt last more than a few seconds in a fight, normally those are the first areas to armour for anyone who took armnour remotely seriously.
As for the Fimir, they have been gone longer than squats.

Coming to Dark Eldar, and also Dark Elves, there were measures to tone down both races by GW management, but the studio said no. The svelt evil of these races is what they are, but with witch elves excepting there is no bias in sexual focus. I doubt they are toning down Dark Eldar, I take the face value approach that noone like the model range, after all they have not toned down Dark elves.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I'm suprised they even allowed it in for 3rd edition because the game has become less adult orientated since the introduction of 3rd edition. The 40k universe is only superficially grimdark, they just puts skulls on stuff, the really nasty stuff has had its teeth pulled.

I really dont agree. The skull skull skull has made grimdark a no brainer cliche. 'Want evil just add moar skulls.' However this is because designers and IP controllers are lacking the imagination to maintain the quality. Commissars and inquisitors are also by and large cliche mass murderers, you could have kept all the chill of the evil regime with a bit more levity built in. Because exterminatus is handed out like candy it has no mystique or horror factor in the background, its just a kiddified slaughterfest of uber kewl.
The poor handling reduces the grimdark, but I think that is accidental and is due to a reclining quality in writing up of the background. The background itself is however very politically incorrect and grim.

Put it this way the human factions default protagonists and viewpoint race are religious extremists in an unambiguously totalitarian dictatorship with fascistic overtones. To put it even more simply 'In the grim darkness of the far future the Fundamentalist Nazi party is the closest you get to a White Hat faction', its them them or a variety of somethings far worse.

Fateweaver wrote:People thinking GW is their best pal and confidant and not a corporation.

An intensely ignorant statement with no basis in reality made for the express purpose to annoy those who disagree with you. And that's the polite way of putting it...

It's not about wanting GW to be our 'best pal'. It's about GW finding a balance between its responsibility to its shareholders and it's customer base, rather than treating the customers like a necessary evil.

Jervis Johnson told me during his 2008 visit to the US that a survey they conducted in the UK indicated that two-thirds of GW customers are "craft hobbyists". As was pointed out here previously, recent articles in White Dwarf seem to acknowledge that. Gamers who are not hobbyists are the more visible though smaller group because they spend more time at the store looking for opponents. Hobbyists mostly buy their models and take them home to build and paint them. Still, both groups account for significant income for GW and marketing is clearly designed to try and cater to both.

It occurs to me that (and forgive me if it's been mentioned in this thread already, 4 pages and thousands of topics saying virtually the same things gets tiring to read) most people mention the shoddy rules and weak FAQ as a big complaint against GW. What if we just get together and collaborate an entirely vanilla standardization of rules? I'm thinking something in the spirit of INAT, but go so far as to have actual codexes and rulebooks. Obviously, there will be copyright concerns, but as I understand copyright, now becoming this thread's annoying self-proclaimed arm-chair paralegal, the rules to the system cannot be copyrighted, only the method in which they are presented. Based upon this, I don't understand why we couldn't just engineer something similar to what Paizo's Pathfinder did for D&D, but in our own image. Obviously, it doesn't do much for the power-gaming WAAC/tourament crowd, but somehow I have a feeling that most of them don't compain about the rules now anyway.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:People thinking GW is their best pal and confidant and not a corporation.

An intensely ignorant statement with no basis in reality made for the express purpose to annoy those who disagree with you. And that's the polite way of putting it...

It's not about wanting GW to be our 'best pal'. It's about GW finding a balance between its responsibility to its shareholders and it's customer base, rather than treating the customers like a necessary evil.

Every corporation does. It must just rub your nerd self the wrong way that a corporation for nerds doesn't treat it's customers like little brother. To other corporations like M$, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, IBM, Apple, yada yada yada YOU are just a necessary evil H but I don't see you in the OT section decrying your hate for Coca-Cola and the fact they don't kiss your ass or M$ and the fact they don't kiss your ass and are just a $ figure to them.

Trust me when PP gets as large as GW (if it ever does) you think they'll keep listening to the customers and what the customers want? You think they'll keep kissing your ass (and I'm willing to bet PP doesn't do that, the rabid fans of PP just think PP cares about them and listens to them).

Of all the businesses I've seen that are discussed on Dakka that appears to listen to customers and care is Battlefoam. Will it stay that way? So long as they don't become a corporate entity with share holders they probably will continue to care and listen to the customer.

I'm willing to bet there are more people in the world wanting Coca-Cola to release a grape Coke to sit alongside the Cherry coke than their are GW nerds wanting GW to listen to their input as far as what models should be made, what codeciies should be released next, which armies should be squatted but yet in all my years of being alive I have yet to see Grape Cola hit the market (and I'm willing to bet people in the real world actually write pen and paper letters to Coke suggesting it, not whining all day on the coke forum about how they can't have grape-flavored Cola).

Fateweaver wrote:
Every corporation does. It must just rub your nerd self the wrong way that a corporation for nerds doesn't treat it's customers like little brother. To other corporations like M$, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, IBM, Apple, yada yada yada YOU are just a necessary evil H but I don't see you in the OT section decrying your hate for Coca-Cola and the fact they don't kiss your ass or M$ and the fact they don't kiss your ass and are just a $ figure to them.

This is true, but it's not how it should be. Since GW stuff is luxury goods, they can do things like charge $$$ for things that should in reality only be $. That's how the real world works, and only a concerted effort against said company can change that, and SHOULD be able to change that, because it's luxury goods and not gasoline or milk. If you don't think that's how luxury goods work, you should check out the resale market for engagement rings. I applaud any attempt to try to boycott GW or otherwise show them that they're rubbing fans the wrong way. The biggest issue is that the people who are complaining are GW fans. They'll complain as long as there is easy access to people willing to listen (internet), but when the time comes and the new Space Wolves/Tyranids/Squats/Whatever codex is released, they'll go "Ohhh, shiny!", and they'll pick it up along with $$$$ worth of models, and then the beancounters at GW happily report that everyone must be as satisfied with the products as they can be, and assume that the noise anyone has hear on the Internet is just that, noise.

I'm willing to bet there are more people in the world wanting Coca-Cola to release a grape Coke to sit alongside the Cherry coke than their are GW nerds wanting GW to listen to their input as far as what models should be made, what codeciies should be released next, which armies should be squatted but yet in all my years of being alive I have yet to see Grape Cola hit the market (and I'm willing to bet people in the real world actually write pen and paper letters to Coke suggesting it, not whining all day on the coke forum about how they can't have grape-flavored Cola).

This argument is invalid and unhelpful. You should try "..percentage of marketshare in the world wanting Coca-Cola to release a grape Coke to sit alongside the Cherry coke than there is percentage of marketshare wanting GW to listen to their input...". The way you phrased it, it's about as moving as if you said "The number of people who like air are much greater than the GW nerds wanting GW to this and that." Admittedly, much less compelling that way when you think about it, but it's much more accurate. You can't count people who don't exist in the marketshare.

Also, at the risk of being awesome, coca-cola forums: http://www.topix.com/forum/com/ko
No mention of Grape Cola anywhere on the forum though.

EDIT: Finally, "boycott coca-cola" in google returns 271,000 results. "boycott 40k" returns 138,000 results. That shows that pure volume, there are more angry coke nerds out there than angry 40k nerds. Also, assume you're estimating percentage of marketshare, if there was half as many people buying 40k stuff as there were drinking beverages from the carbonated beverage industry, then they would have equal percentage of angry people. I think that Games workshop would LOVE to have that kind of a following.

EDIT 2: Clarity.

Here is a simple strategy for getting GW to change it mind on all this.

First, have a presence in GW stores, if only to dissuade new customers, just until you get kicked out. Not like too many diehards would hang out at GW's stores if we can help it.
Second, whether you are at a GW store or elsewhere, when you see anyone 14 years old or so talk them out of buying GW products. Tell them how GW will not care about them, tell them GW is greedy, tell them they'll only ever lose and serve to boost your ego. Give them the worst time of their life and chase them off. Instead propose to them another game which will be much more forgiving but will keep them in the greater hobby community, so that 5+ years from now they can be brought into the fold.
Third, never play a GW game in front of anyone of the impressionable age. Only play other non-GW games in local shops. Also play to their desire to be "older" tell them whatever non-GW game you're playing is meant for older kids and GW is meant for children.
Fourth, if they're still insistent on playing a GW game, sell them or give them the random or old figures you have but never use. Preferably to a non-Marine army. This is one less thing they will buy from GW and one less dollar GW is getting from a kid.

It comes down to gaming their statistics to gain a beneficial outcome... like below.

An example of the type of situation which must be fostered is that of Harley Davidson, for 50+ years it gained fan based support through reputation. In the 90's cost prohibativeness and a community growing disproportionately older effectively chased out younger new comers. Cheaper alternatives in the form of foriegn made motorcycles pulled in those younger potential customers. This nearly pushed Harley Davidson in to bankruptcy and forced the company to focus more intently on its establish fan base.

If you deplete the number of younger kids coming into the stores and buying GW you will trigger a knee jerk reaction in GW of turning to die hard loyal fans to support them. The reduced growth of new customer sales force them to turn to specialized sales designed to appeal to niches within the existing community.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:So what is wrong with GW?

People have this mistaken, quaint notion GW is some little game company run by and for gamers, rather than the multinational market-leading corporation that derives the overwhelming majority of its revenue and profit from the sale of physical miniatures.
____

aka_mythos wrote:An example of the type of situation which must be fostered is that of Harley Davidson, for 50+ years it gained fan based support through reputation.

Harley is a *great* analogy. Like GW, HD set up a side business to make sportier bikes - Buell. Like Specialist Games, that Buell is now dead and gone. Also, like GW, HD has a number of small competitors doing low-volume premium work (i.e. high-output V-twin engines). And like GW, HD is now a business rather than a fan project.
____

daedalus wrote:Finally, "boycott coca-cola" in google returns 271,000 results. "boycott 40k" returns 138,000 results. That shows that pure volume, there are more angry coke nerds out there than angry 40k nerds.

No, it shows you don't do a very good google search.

"boycott coke" gives 2.9 MILLION results, so you're off by more than an order of magnitude.
"boycott cocacola" adds another 2.2 MILLION results...

Clearly more Coke fiends than GW addicts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

daedalus wrote:Finally, "boycott coca-cola" in google returns 271,000 results. "boycott 40k" returns 138,000 results. That shows that pure volume, there are more angry coke nerds out there than angry 40k nerds.

No, it shows you don't do a very good google search.

"boycott coke" gives 2.9 MILLION results, so you're off by more than an order of magnitude.
"boycott cocacola" adds another 2.2 MILLION results...

Clearly more Coke fiends than GW addicts.

Interesting, the hyphen must have thrown it off, though I intentionally avoided "boycott coke" because I wanted to make sure we were talking about carbonated beverages and not white power.

It appears that more than one person misplaced their sense of humor. Off topic ranting on politics and such is already part of this thread.

Someone wisely pointed out early in this thread that this topic in some form or other seems to pop up quite often. Does anything productive ever come out of these discussions or are they just catharsis for the angry crowd? With all the strife and injustice in the world, I find this hobby to be a great escape from the pressures of reality and the last thing to be angry about.

BrassScorpion wrote:It appears that more than one person misplaced their sense of humor. Off topic ranting on politics and such is already part of this thread.

Someone wisely pointed out early in this thread that this topic in some form or other seems to pop up quite often. Does anything productive ever come out of these discussions or are they just catharsis for the angry crowd? With all the strife and injustice in the world, I find this hobby to be a great escape from the pressures of reality and the last thing to be angry about.

Honestly, as I see it, there is a particular type of people in the world who are complete curmudgeons who will manage to find disdain in any situation given the opportunity and an audience. Admittedly, I am among these cynical few. I've never actually seen anything productive come out of these threads and are almost always cookie cutter duplicates of each other.

Personally, the only issues I have with GW is the lack of support when it comes to rule sets. I don't give a care one way or the other about the cost. Would I like it to be cheaper? Absolutely. Is that going to cause me to dedicate hours of whining about? No. It's a luxury, it's not food, water, or the gas I buy to get to work; I can survive without it and only buy it when it's within my means to do so. What is going to cause me hours of whining is the fact that DH or WH have not seen an update in the matter of time that other armies have seen 2+, and the halfhearted FAQs don't count. You can engineer house rules, but those only extend to the number of people willing to accept them, which is typically not very large outside of a small group of people willing to run with experimental stuff. This is a barrier to my fullest enjoyment of the hobby, and leads to bitterness. Having that been said, I still enjoy painting, though you wouldn't know it by looking at my army, and I really enjoy assembling miniatures. I don't mind paying 45 bucks for a hellhound, much to my girlfriend's disdain, because I know that it will provide me with hours of release from the suck of work and life cutting it out of the sprues and putting it together. I just wish I could enjoy playing the game as much I do assembling the parts.

40k to me feels like I am buying a BMW that I have to assemble and paint myself, but no matter how well I do it, it says in the manual that it won't ever work as well as the bright blue and white Stanza the neighbor just built.

daedalus wrote:

"Personally, the only issues I have with GW is the lack of support when it comes to rule sets. "

QFT!!!!!!! Amen!

BrassScorpion wrote:Jervis Johnson told me during his 2008 visit to the US that a survey they conducted in the UK indicated that two-thirds of GW customers are "craft hobbyists". As was pointed out here previously, recent articles in White Dwarf seem to acknowledge that. Gamers who are not hobbyists are the more visible though smaller group because they spend more time at the store looking for opponents. Hobbyists mostly buy their models and take them home to build and paint them. Still, both groups account for significant income for GW and marketing is clearly designed to try and cater to both.

Wowsers. If this is true, then GW's focus on the non-gaming side makes perfect sense. As well as their view of the games side...if GW thinks (with data) that 2/3 of their business comes from craft hobbyists, that's where they'll put the majority of the focus. If GW believes that FAQ, tournaments, codices, etc. are for just 1/3 of their customers...well, they'll allocate resources to match that income. Simple economics.

It's easy here in our gaming forums to rant and rave that GW doesn't give us the focus we're due, but that's because here we can't possibly imagine we're in the minority (this includes me, I should note). We're in our own echo chamber.

By and large, I think GW does do a pretty good job and I'm a huge fan. Yes, I'd like things to get better for my own tastes, but should that marketing data be true, I totally understand why GW wouldn't be doing things as I'd like them to.

Rules/Codex issues.


I think that instead of them having a new edition come out, then crank out new codes for new edition..

I think they should follow the following model to help reduce clutter, promote fairness of rules, and balance between races..

When writing a new edition, sit down and modify every existing codex to a greater or lesser degree to make them all play correctly in the updated rules format. All of which should be released at the same time.

I would have to disagree with the fact that GW are tyring to muplicate teenager, because most players are either in they twenties or older. Where can you find a teenager now that can afford an armies? The answer is, there isn't any teenagers that can afford their own armies, Most or all them rely on their parents income, and with the ecomoic troubles that America and the American public faces, many families can not afford to share any money in this market at this time. Even though it seem that GW is foucing their marketing on the younger coward. GW is market plan should be toward the true players in 40K, which is the older coward. I understand that in order for a game to survive, it need new blood. The problem with that is kids are now growing faster than i have ever seen. Most of the 40k players in my store are between the age of 25-39, there isnt a single teenager in site. I tried to push the game, but once again you have to look at the ecomoic problem we are in and the fact the techonology is taking over the market. Most kid want either a PS3 or 360 and not sent the time in this game. the other problems with GW is that they are not in tune with the players market. They are so back logged with codex, rules and other gak. The company needs a new CEO and overhaul the whole company.

The reason I left GW was the price increases points and the broken and unrealistic rules. When a system has a Q&A every month and when I can't perform real world tactics like suppressive fire, split units, field works and allowing for a commander to play the army against their enemy and not their special rules. I also hate point systems as it becomes more of a game in which whoever has the best special rules then an actually military strategic battle.

The system I use now allow for me to do anything on the field. I can dig foxholes, set booby traps and use suppressive fire to channel the enemy and use weapons in a realistic manner.

Love the minis and background but it just wasn't enough to keep me dedicated to it.

Brian

TopC wrote:Rules/Codex issues.


I think that instead of them having a new edition come out, then crank out new codes for new edition..

I think they should follow the following model to help reduce clutter, promote fairness of rules, and balance between races..

When writing a new edition, sit down and modify every existing codex to a greater or lesser degree to make them all play correctly in the updated rules format. All of which should be released at the same time.

i see where your coming from but in all fairness as i said in the Grate fan push back if the game is too balanced it will become stale and bland and not enjoyable. not every thing in Life is Balanced i like the fact playing lower teir armys gives you a masive draw back for fantasy i play a pure NG armie i went up ageinst a mates VC and he is a grate tactision and stuff the dice where in his favor yeah i lost but i went down fighting (admitidly my armie did jack most of the time dam animosity) but the next time i play him i will adapt.

Im sorta new to the fourm scene on and off for the last two years so i really cant see why you lot are getting so Fethed off that a company is runing the way they want to run, i just cant see why!

The reason I left GW was the price increases points and the broken and unrealistic rules. When a system has a Q&A every month and when I can't perform real world tactics like suppressive fire, split units, field works and allowing for a commander to play the army against their enemy and not their special rules. I also hate point systems as it becomes more of a game in which whoever has the best special rules then an actually military strategic battle.

The system I use now allow for me to do anything on the field. I can dig foxholes, set booby traps and use suppressive fire to channel the enemy and use weapons in a realistic manner.

im sorry to go off topic here but when ever did it say it was realist in the rule book and the rules arnt broken at all (any one says the chaos codex is a world of hurt is gona come) im not trying to flame this but i would like to know abit more on how you came to that conclusion.

untill you guys give a ligit reson thats not the rules or the price of figs( witch imho is correct pricing for the uberness) stop crying about
it (thats the nice way i putting it)

Pete

Pete_scete wrote:

TopC wrote:Rules/Codex issues.


I think that instead of them having a new edition come out, then crank out new codes for new edition..

I think they should follow the following model to help reduce clutter, promote fairness of rules, and balance between races..

When writing a new edition, sit down and modify every existing codex to a greater or lesser degree to make them all play correctly in the updated rules format. All of which should be released at the same time.

i see where your coming from but in all fairness as i said in the Grate fan push back if the game is too balanced it will become stale and bland and not enjoyable. not every thing in Life is Balanced i like the fact playing lower teir armys gives you a masive draw back for fantasy i play a pure NG armie i went up ageinst a mates VC and he is a grate tactision and stuff the dice where in his favor yeah i lost but i went down fighting (admitidly my armie did jack most of the time dam animosity) but the next time i play him i will adapt.

Im sorta new to the fourm scene on and off for the last two years so i really cant see why you lot are getting so Fethed off that a company is runing the way they want to run, i just cant see why!

The reason I left GW was the price increases points and the broken and unrealistic rules. When a system has a Q&A every month and when I can't perform real world tactics like suppressive fire, split units, field works and allowing for a commander to play the army against their enemy and not their special rules. I also hate point systems as it becomes more of a game in which whoever has the best special rules then an actually military strategic battle.

The system I use now allow for me to do anything on the field. I can dig foxholes, set booby traps and use suppressive fire to channel the enemy and use weapons in a realistic manner.

im sorry to go off topic here but when ever did it say it was realist in the rule book and the rules arnt broken at all (any one says the chaos codex is a world of hurt is gona come) im not trying to flame this but i would like to know abit more on how you came to that conclusion.

untill you guys give a ligit reson thats not the rules or the price of figs( witch imho is correct pricing for the uberness) stop crying about
it (thats the nice way i putting it)

Pete

"If the game is too balenced it will become stale and bland and not enjoyable."

How many games (aside from GW's) do you play that you can honestly say that with a straight face?


"Im sorta new to the fourm scene on and off for the last two years so i really cant see why you lot are getting so Fethed off that a company is runing the way they want to run, i just cant see why!"

You have seen HOW many threads about this subject, again?
You can't see why?- Well. Its probibly a number of reasons, from people just like to B and M about subjects, to the other, because people are passionate about thier game and they don't like what they see that they feel is something thet they actually have control over. The other reasons are too complicated to get into on a gaming forum, but they can do with EGO and ID, and upbringing, and control issues, all the way up to trying to have some sort of semblence of control over thier surroundings, even if it is for that one 3-4 hour block of time that they are playing a fantasy or science fiction game... And they feel that it is being taken away from them, and are trying to grasp concepts that they can only think about in thier worst evil dreams and nightmares.


Are you talking about the same game the rest of this conversation is about? People are fethed because they care, Honestly.

If they didn't the conversation would be about two posts and forgotten.

Telling someone that it sucks and to just suck it up is just going to start the flames burning faster. The best bet is to let it run its course, until the next genius starts the next exact thread saying the exact same thing.


I'm seeing the conversation devolve into some sort of freak show, its sick and fun in a crazy sort of way. Kind of like watching a car wreck in slow motion.

SilverMK2 wrote:I went into a GW in Bluewater over Christmas, and heard one of the GW worker minions telling the parent of some 13 year old player that "GW paints are best, as other companies paints can melt the plastics - ditto with the glue". I left before I could say something very rude.

It is that kind of stuff that I think annoys me the most with GW. A lot of the best hobby stuff is not made by GW (paints, glue, brushes etc) and it is often cheaper too...

I would have feigned ignorance and asked him to tell me which manufacturers those might be so that I could avoid them. Then I would have asked, "So I shouldn't use Testors, Tamiya, Humbrol, Windsor/Newton, Pactra, Polly S, Vallejo, Delta Ceramcoat, Folk Art, or Apple Barrel? I mean they are all water based acrylics, shouldn't they work as well as yours, unless of course they have been putting hydrochloric acid in thier formulas?"

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

Two points here that I would like to address, advertising and the oft threatened and neutered topic of a boycott:

GW has great potential for advertising. They refuse to go outside of their own magazine for advertisment, in which they are able to advertise their newest products - essentially preaching to the converted. The purpose of advertising is to sell to the uninitiated (preach to the heathens?) This is where they fail. My example is that in the late seventies and early eighties and in fact even up through now D&D had multitudinous print media ads. They advertised in comic books and various other youth media (I had a subscription to a science magazine and there was always an ad in there for TSR products and sometimes even more than one.) so they put the message out there. Even today WotC has done an incredible job of advertising their product in everything from comics to magazines that deal with console and PC gaming. To my knowledge GW has never run a print ad anywhere, or if they have it hasn't been for very long or with widspread coverage.

In my area no one knows anything about the tabletop game. We have a bookstore that sells Black Library but no one has a clue about the miniatures game, although they are aware of the MMO WH: AoR, and some even know about Dawn of War. This could be changed though if they started putting print advertisements in other places aside from their own propaganda and throwing in a plastic miniature with a flyer in their digital product. Face it, little Timmy is going to be playing more electronic games and will not even notice the tangible worlds that we enjoy unless someone shows him.

Boycotting:

If I had a nickle for every time I see this come up I could probably go buy some Wargames Factory Zulus (yes the big "Usuthu!" set). Some say it won't work because not everyone would be on board, some say that, much like Hercules' Hydra, little two little Timmy's will pop up for every grizzled old vet that walks away. We don't have to all be on board with a boycott and the less we do for promotion of the game the fewer little Timmy's will be drawn into the hobby. Aside from just not buying their products, avoid talking about the game to anyone other than those you play with, avoid their shops; instead paint up what you have in the bottom of your closet, focus on other aspects of the hobby (terrain-building, etc.), play a different game with the models you already have, support a different outfit, try airsoft, or save up some money for other things. Every vet player that leaves or reduces their involvement has an impact on the next generation buying in to the GW product line. Think, if you influence five interested people to investigate GW's products then at least one or even two of them would get hooked (If only one then GW has seen a 100% increase in their player base (you+one)) I for one am not going to buy anything else from GW this year (maybe even ever), nor shall I introduce anyone else to the "GW hobby" either. If you want to do the same then do so, but don't go whining about how we should all boycott GW.

Just the mere fact that people are so vociferous about boycotting should give GW pause.


Lies:

GW has lied to us so many times before. Way back in 92/93 when they started going plastic they released several sets, High Elves, Goblins, Beastmen, Chaos, as well as a 30 man Imperial Halberdier regiment to which the following statement was applied, "We look forward to releasing more sets in plastic as it is cheaper and we can pass the savings on to our customers." Nearly 20 years later they are now going to price the plastic as though it were metal? This is what has been reported and I for one will not stand for it.

In the end they have really lost the potential that there was in the market here in the USA, they fail to understand that things don't work here the same as they do in the UK and Europe thereby wasting money on storefronts when better support of indy retailers would have been a much wiser move.

Um, GW *did* pass savings on with plastics.

Look at Rackham, Warmachine, Infinity, or any other premium metal minis. They cost a *lot* more than GW plastic minis.