Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

FITZZ wrote:

garret wrote:wow. i watched the 700 club before. like 5 times. i never knew they were this crazy. i am never watching this again.

Outstanding! now if only a few million more of his viewers would follow your example.

This dude has millions of viewers?????

although i do have to admit some of the stories in the show were heart warming. without him it probably would be a greater show.

garret wrote:although i do have to admit some of the stories in the show were heart warming. without him it probably would be a greater show.

Call me cynical,but most of the "heart warming" momments in these types of broadcast are desighned to get the viewer to "dig deep" into their souls (and pockets) to keep the show and indeed the agenda rolling.

maybe but they never got a penny out of me.

Gitzbitah wrote:You know what I love about Christianity? All the sects.


paraphrased from Tycho Brahe.

actually it was this comic... (Not Safe For Work)


just to try and lighten the mood a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, bear in mind that the KKK was a christian sect, and most people do NOT judge the entirety of christianity's actions on them.

Goliath wrote:
Also, bear in mind that the KKK was a christian sect, and most people do NOT judge the entirety of christianity's actions on them.

Again... like neo nazi skin heads. The KKK was not, nor ever has been a Christian sect. Do I really need to go over this again?

Christians don't go around lynching people because of their skin color. The KKK was and is an ideological organization, that has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

Sheesh.

GG

Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

Yet you keep dodging mine.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

Yet you keep dodging mine.

Lol I think that's called ignoring.

Norwulf wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

Yet you keep dodging mine.

Lol I think that's called ignoring.

So you admit to picking and choosing easy targets for response because you don't have a sound foundation for or understand of your beliefs. Good to know.

Not at all. I'm just teasing you because GG didn't respond to your post is all lol. It has nothing to do with my beliefs, just havin a laugh man.

Norwulf wrote:Not at all. I'm just teasing you because GG didn't respond to your post is all lol. It has nothing to do with my beliefs, just havin a laugh man.

Oh, my bad, I didn't make the separation between you and GG at all. I thought you were he. Not sure how that happened, I guess I just sort of blanked. I apologize.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

Yet you keep dodging mine.

Hmmmm I scrolled back through the entire thread....I'm not sure what your on about. If you have a particular point you would like me to adress please repeat. :-)

GG

generalgrog wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

Yet you keep dodging mine.

Hmmmm I scrolled back through the entire thread....I'm not sure what your on about. If you have a particular point you would like me to adress please repeat. :-)

GG

I was arguing against the concept of violent action denying the status of "christian", i posted a few times about it, but it was seemingly glazed over. Don't be insulted by my last post, that was a total mistake, I had read a post by norwulf thinking it was you which led me to take what he said totally wrong.

generalgrog wrote:
Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

So, basically, if you fail to do something (say, turn the other cheek) that Christianity dictates you cease to be a Christian.

There must not be very many Christians in the world.

General Grog, there was a point made two pages back which you didn't seem to quite get. Allow me to try and render it a bit more understandable (no sarcasm intended).

You say that people like this guy are not really christians because they are doing unchristian things. Therefore even if they say they are christians, like the KKK, they are not because they are doing things that you believe are fundamentally at odds with what it means to be christian.

However, these people believe they are christian. In fact, it's all too possible that they believe YOU are not a real christian, because they think what you believe is fundamentally at odds with what they would call a christian.

So now we have an impasse. Both sides believe the other is not a christian and that they are. Both can point to appropriate tracts of the bible advocating either peace or the killing of gay people. As a very conflicting book, either side can pull anything out of there to support themselves. Not only that, but they can pull out a quote to show the other side is fundamentally unchristian. Does this mean neither side is christian? No, because both sides believe and proclaim themselves to be the real christians.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world looks on, sees two guys with different viewpoints announcing completely different things, and condemning the other. However, the one thing both sides agree on is that they personally are christian. So the rest of the world goes, 'ah, so they're both christians', and then proceeds to make smarmy comments about Christianity in general which will encompass the views of both self-proclaimed christians. For the non-believer, it is impossible to separate one from the other, as what it is to be christian is completely subjective by this stage of the game.

Did that help at all?

dogma wrote:

generalgrog wrote:
Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

So, basically, if you fail to do something (say, turn the other cheek) that Christianity dictates you cease to be a Christian.

There must not be very many Christians in the world.

Wow.... so "Lets lynch the Negro....get em boys!!" is equivalent to not turning the other cheek in your eyes?

GG

generalgrog wrote:

dogma wrote:

generalgrog wrote:
Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

So, basically, if you fail to do something (say, turn the other cheek) that Christianity dictates you cease to be a Christian.

There must not be very many Christians in the world.

Wow.... so "Lets lynch the Negro....get em boys!!" is equivalent to not turning the other cheek in your eyes?

GG

Well I don't think anyone would claim those two situations are equivelent,but when your "on the outside looking in" things do look a bit odd.

KKK-" We are Christians and we can use the bible to prove we are better than other races."
Robertson & supporters-"We are Christian and we can use the bible to prove god pulverized Hatti for their sins"
GG " there not really Christians and I could use the bible to prove it."

For a person who isn't a Christian,this begins to look like no one in the "club" can agree on what the "club rules" are.

Ketara wrote:General Grog, there was a point made two pages back which you didn't seem to quite get. Allow me to try and render it a bit more understandable (no sarcasm intended).

You say that people like this guy are not really christians because they are doing unchristian things. Therefore even if they say they are christians, like the KKK, they are not because they are doing things that you believe are fundamentally at odds with what it means to be christian.

However, these people believe they are christian. In fact, it's all too possible that they believe YOU are not a real christian, because they think what you believe is fundamentally at odds with what they would call a christian.

So now we have an impasse. Both sides believe the other is not a christian and that they are. Both can point to appropriate tracts of the bible advocating either peace or the killing of gay people. As a very conflicting book, either side can pull anything out of there to support themselves. Not only that, but they can pull out a quote to show the other side is fundamentally unchristian. Does this mean neither side is christian? No, because both sides believe and proclaim themselves to be the real christians.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world looks on, sees two guys with different viewpoints announcing completely different things, and condemning the other. However, the one thing both sides agree on is that they personally are christian. So the rest of the world goes, 'ah, so they're both christians', and then proceeds to make smarmy comments about Christianity in general which will encompass the views of both self-proclaimed christians. For the non-believer, it is impossible to separate one from the other, as what it is to be christian is completely subjective by this stage of the game.

Did that help at all?

Very nice post Ketara. Although I see what you are saying and it seems similar to what Shuma and Mattyrm were trying to say earlier. I thought I had answered that. I will answer your specific point in hopes that answers Shumas question as well.

I agree with the principle that people believe different things and may both call themselves Christian. However as a Christian myself that studies the Bible regularly, although I wouldn't call myself a scholar. There is a principle of bible study called exegesis whereby you study the Bible and let the Bible interpret itself. When you follow these principles you develop a set of doctrines(teachings/beliefs) that has come to be called orthodox Christianity. For example someone who claims to be Christian cannot also claim that they worship Baal for example. This would immediately classify them as an Idol worshiper, and therefore outside of the vale of orthodox Christianity. In the same manner you have all kinds of cults that have sprang up in the 2,000 years since Christ. You also have ideological organizations like the KKK and others that distort the orthodox doctrines of Christianity to their own ends and try to put on the clothing of Christianity. These are classified as "wolves in sheeps clothing".

Christians do fall, into sin but they do so as mistakes, that's why its' called falling. Christians do not make detailed plans on how to sin and how they are going to do all kinds of terrible things. For example Adolf Hitler was a professed Catholic. Would anyone in their right mind really believe Adolf Hitler was a Christian, Just because he said he was? Of course not, he was a fasle professor. Jesus talked a lot in the Gospels about these people, these weeds that grow up amidst the wheat. The wheat representing Christians and the weeds representing hypocrites.

Indeed I think the same principle of false profession can be applied to other institutions outside of the Church. For example, someone may join a hippy protest group to try to get to know more girls, without really ever believing in their heart in the mission of the group they joined.

Now, onto Christians expressing different viewpoints. It is of course possible for Christians to disageree over certain doctrines. This is why we have Roman Catholic, Baptist, Pentacostal, Methodist, Eastern Orthodox to name but a few. Even in those denominations there are sects that disagree, like Southern Baptist, Northern Baptist, FreeWill Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Liberal Baptist, etc. The thing is, most of these organisations while disagreeing over minor things they all agree on the main things that make up Christian Orthodoxy, such as The Virgin Birth of Christ, Resurection of Christ, Christ's atonement on the Cross, etc. None of these orthodox Christian denomination's would consider the KKK a Christian organization.

I hope that explains where I'm coming from adequately.

GG

edit..also I never said Pat Robertson wasn't a Christian.(He may or may not be) However, I am deeply offended by some of the shameful things he has said over the years.

These threads have no purpose but to QQ about ignorant, slowed bastards being what they are: a DUMBASS.

My blood pressure raises just a bit more when I see these.

FITZZ wrote:

generalgrog wrote:

dogma wrote:

generalgrog wrote:
Goliaths post only goes to reinforce the reason why I have been so vehement in trying to pioint out that people that claim Christianity aren't always Christian.

So, basically, if you fail to do something (say, turn the other cheek) that Christianity dictates you cease to be a Christian.

There must not be very many Christians in the world.

Wow.... so "Lets lynch the Negro....get em boys!!" is equivalent to not turning the other cheek in your eyes?

GG

Well I don't think anyone would claim those two situations are equivelent,but when your "on the outside looking in" things do look a bit odd.

KKK-" We are Christians and we can use the bible to prove we are better than other races."
Robertson & supporters-"We are Christian and we can use the bible to prove god pulverized Hatti for their sins"
GG " there not really Christians and I could use the bible to prove it."

For a person who isn't a Christian,this begins to look like no one in the "club" can agree on what the "club rules" are.

Well my only suggestion would be to have you read the Bible for yourself and develop your own opinion on the matter. :-)


GG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karon wrote:These threads have no purpose but to QQ about ignorant, slowed bastards being what they are: a DUMBASS.

My blood pressure raises just a bit more when I see these.

Who was this directed at?

GG

generalgrog wrote:
Wow.... so "Lets lynch the Negro....get em boys!!" is equivalent to not turning the other cheek in your eyes?

GG

I normally enjoy good dissembling, but this certainly isn't an example of it.

If you really think the point of my post was the comparison of lynching and general conflict (even though one is a form of the other), then there really is no point in me going further in this argument. You won't be able to understand it because you'll allow yourself to be come too caught up in your defense of the Christian church.

In any case, I'll give it one more shot, for the fun of it.

The KKK is not a Christian organization. However, it is populated by a significant number of Christians. The Bible, and Christian teaching in general, does not forbid the use of force. What's more; disqualifying people from Christianity for violating your understanding of its teachings is a very poor way to defend your faith. Really, you should just admit that there are reprehensible Christians just as there are reprehensible Muslims, Jews, and Hindus.

This is why you don't make blanket statements, especially if you can't back up with a logical retort...

Yeah GG, you seem like a nice fella mate, im sure your hearts in the right place, but you really are onto a loser if you think that you can back up your statement here. Your idea of Christianity is in the majority, you know, nice peaceful do unto others Christianity and all that, but still, there are extremeists in all Religions, but by definition, they ARE Christians!

Bin Laden IS a Muslim right? Lots of Muslims say he isnt a "true" Muslim, but its the same thing.

It sucks for decent guys like you if you feel you are being tarred with the same brush.. but thats the way it goes. Im sure we all kinda feel the same when people say bad things about English/American people for the actions of a few.

FITZZ wrote:

garret wrote:wow. i watched the 700 club before. like 5 times. i never knew they were this crazy. i am never watching this again.

Outstanding! now if only a few million more of his viewers would follow your example.

You can find a few million people to watch any kind of drivel though. How else would American Idol be so popular?

I'm also of the opinion that Pat Robertson isn't a completely evil guy, he just says stupid things. Let's not forget that as he was making this statement that he was raising money on his show to aid the people of Haiti.

Edit:

On the subject of "true Christians:" In Protestant theology, the only real qualification for being a Christian is believing that Jesus is your savior. The idea is that once you decide on this that you will attempt to emulate his example, i.e. doing unto others as you would have them do unto you and loving your neighbor as you love yourself, and not judging people because everyone sins and no one is better than anyone else. It's why these splinter groups like Westboro Baptist get so much press, because they're such an aberration. Catholic theology there's a few more hoops to jump through for salvation, but the basic tenets once you're in the club are more or less the same.

Generally, when you behave outside of these parameters you're not, according to the community at large, a very good Christian.

Since I'm apparantly doing a rather poor job of helping people see my position, I'll just let the words of Jesus speak for me.

Matthew chapter 7:15-23 (NIV)
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The phrase "I never knew you" equates to being an unbeliever, because belief is a heart thing, not an intelectual assent to a fact.

So basically according to a few people on DAKKA

Adolf Hitler, unrepentent child molesting priests, white supremacists, Phony televangelists, Cult leaders like David Koresh, Jim Jones of Jones town fame and a slew of other people that have claimed themsleves to be Christian are indeed Christian just because they professed it, even though there lives didn't project Christianity, then you really are blind.

I'm really starting to wonder if some of you are just arguing for the fun of it now, since I find it hard to believe you can really believe some of the stuff you are saying. :-)

The bottom line.... you can believe that anyone that makes a profession of belief is a Christian if you want. The fact remains, that not all people that make such a declaration are for real. The Bible is full of warnings against false professions and I am well backed up by the Bible in making that statement.


GG

GG do you feel the same way about muslims who act in ways that are not supported by their holy text?

Ketara wrote:General Grog, there was a point made two pages back which you didn't seem to quite get. Allow me to try and render it a bit more understandable (no sarcasm intended).

You say that people like this guy are not really christians because they are doing unchristian things. Therefore even if they say they are christians, like the KKK, they are not because they are doing things that you believe are fundamentally at odds with what it means to be christian.

However, these people believe they are christian. In fact, it's all too possible that they believe YOU are not a real christian, because they think what you believe is fundamentally at odds with what they would call a christian.

So now we have an impasse. Both sides believe the other is not a christian and that they are. Both can point to appropriate tracts of the bible advocating either peace or the killing of gay people. As a very conflicting book, either side can pull anything out of there to support themselves. Not only that, but they can pull out a quote to show the other side is fundamentally unchristian. Does this mean neither side is christian? No, because both sides believe and proclaim themselves to be the real christians.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world looks on, sees two guys with different viewpoints announcing completely different things, and condemning the other. However, the one thing both sides agree on is that they personally are christian. So the rest of the world goes, 'ah, so they're both christians', and then proceeds to make smarmy comments about Christianity in general which will encompass the views of both self-proclaimed christians. For the non-believer, it is impossible to separate one from the other, as what it is to be christian is completely subjective by this stage of the game.

Did that help at all?

Kind of like the holy wars between Protostents and Catholics, or between Muslim sects? If I understand you correctly, I think that's kind of the direction this point you brought up could take.

Da Boss wrote:GG do you feel the same way about muslims who act in ways that are not supported by their holy text?

I want to start by saying that I have some Muslim friends who are really beautifull people. And they themselves would say that Bin Laden and such were not "true" muslims and more of a cult of Islam. I don't know enough about it to say so.

I really don't know much at all about the Koran. What I have seen is that the Koran is much easier to come up with "wacky" interpretations that can be backed up by the Koran itself than the Bible. By that I mean that the Bible is written in such a way that when people try to take passages out of context you can usually find other passages that bring more light to help you find the true meaning. The Koran apparantly is much harder to do this, and leaves it open to more extremism.

The Bible itself has many 100's of thousands of manuscripts that make it relatively easy to narrow down the true intent by comparing them to each other and weeding out the descrepencies. While I think the Koran has very few different manuscripts, so it would be less of an easy task to "prove", using the Koran only, that extreme views on Jihad and the treatment of women for example are Koranically wrong.

Please keep in mind that my view is based on my limited understaning of the subject.
GG

GG-

They're busting your balls, man.

This thread has gone from saying that Pat Robertson was out of line to you having to explain to these people why the KKK doesn't represent mainstream Christianity.

Either the people making these claims know that they're full of or they're too deluded to be convinced otherwise.

Don't waste your time.

No one has said KKK is mainstream christianity.

It was pointed out as an example of an extreme christian sect.

I know it's more fun to by hyper defensive and outraged but try reading what people write down in future.
GG understood that, he was putting forth his view that these people are not real christians. Others were then disagreeing with him for various reasons. I don't think anyone is being rude to GG.