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Sorry? Why the sudden hate? It's not an assault, so why should it be bound by the usual assault rules?

What's the issue with letting the Dreadnought be boarded? There's no reason to think it can't.

If it's not an assault or shooting attack then what is it? If it is an assault then surely the dreadnaught can hit the nob on the plank.

G

Frankly being able to assault at all without being considered in B2B even if just for the duration of the exchange of blows is broken just because of this nightmare situation.

It's a mjor hell gap, but I can't see a way out of it that doesn't bring up base contact.

'oh you have to be in b2b to assault': nope magic ork cheese

'oh in assault you have to be able to actually move into contact with enemy model, i.e. a clear path to the foe to assault/attack': nope- magic ork cheese. If there's a foot tall wall 1" thick and solid in between the ork here and the walker/regular vehicle the magicv cheese wallop lets them assault.

Apparently the plank is actually a transdimensional gateway which open a tunnel for the nob to punch things through.

Like I said-- absolutely cheese-- which necessitates the choking and the stomping and the rending of limbs and bathing in the blood of ino....well.. *cough* it makes for meanness.

The second they pull that on me though I'm going right to the book of Gwar and I'm going to utilize absolutely every LAST SINGLE OBSCURE RULE REFERENCE they never thought could exist.

...As my signature states-- they get the Scientologist treatment.

Ummm, wow. The rule appears extremely clear. However, the counter seems fairly obvious...

Don't let a vehicle with a boarding plank roll up next to your Dreadnought.

If you're not stomping the armor 10 fast trukks or able to avoid a freakin' Battlewagon lumbering its way across the table at your own Dreadnought, not sure what else to say.

Green Blow Fly wrote:If it's not an assault or shooting attack then what is it? If it is an assault then surely the dreadnaught can hit the nob on the plank.

G

A special ability, like the Grabba Klaw. You make your attacks. That's all. It's not assault or a shooting attack.



@Dragon: Cheese stays out of YMDC, because if we want to play the making up rules game, I declare that not allowing me to win on a 2+ infinite re-rolls is legal. BTW, what's the source of that quote? Which rule was in question?

The rule states the ork counts as charging, so it's an assault and the dreadnaught can hit it.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The rule states the ork counts as charging, so it's an assault and the dreadnaught can hit it.

G

As much as I know you hate RaW, there is no such thing as charging, so the ork actually only counts as Disembarked and the Dread cannot hit back.

Actually the rules clearly describe the charge. It's simple and easy too.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Actually the rules clearly describe the charge. It's simple and easy too.

G

No, it doesn't. The rule simply says "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging". It, nor the Rulebook, defines what charging is.

I mean I hate it, but it IS RAW. I can even see how it's fluffy and basically okay for play. I know HOW to play at the moment folks I'm just saying I like it about as much as chowing down on garbage can sludge.

If they would just make an exception that states if you engage something with WS it can get a hit back I'd be okay. I'm not even saying back on JUST the nob/hitting model either, a few licks on the unit would be just as fine.

Likewise, I think it would be neat if the plank could be used on monstrous creatures as well. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander, right?

Unfortunately, these are things which just aren't going to happen unitl another Ork codex... and that... seems very, very far away.

That's not even talking about morale tests for the unit in vehicles.. jesus.

So for the moment, blatant inadequacies and warp tunnely punches are the order of the day.

I think this thread is about done. I'm surprised insaniak hasn't canned it already.

Quick --->someone start talking about Nids and the DoM.

Green Blow Fly wrote:If it's not an assault or shooting attack then what is it? If it is an assault then surely the dreadnaught can hit the nob on the plank.

G

The Dreadnought has models in base to base so it would have to attack that base to base unit. Regardless of what you think about boarding planks and walkers, there's no ambiguity in this case.

Is the model on the plank in contact with the target?

G

sigh.... no it's not. Thus the warp-tunnel-fist.

All the sane limitatations prohibiting such an attack are based upon factors involving bases and actual model presence---- factors pointless when all the vehicle has to do to initiate the miraculous rocket fist is be within 2".

But it's not a warp tunnel by any stretch.

G

According to Independent National Warhammer 40,000 Tournament FAQ v.3.1 it states;

ORK.93C.01 – Q: If a Boarding Plank is used to attack a Walker does the Walker get to strike back?
A: No [RAW].

it may not be law, but it is a pretty good indicator.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Is the model on the plank in contact with the target?

G

No, however it is given special permission to attack.

What you fail to see is that the Dreadnought is NOT given any special permission to attack. Is it in BtB? No. This means it cannot attack unless it is given special permission to do so. Has it been given special permission to do so? I'll leave you to answer that.

This has been explained many times now, and you accuse others of trolling?

The best way to explain this was the language swap done on page 1.

The [horse] [runs] exactly as if [its legs were on fire]

The noun of the single embarked ork is replaced with horse, the verb attack is replace by runs, and the ?adverb disembarked and assaulted is replaced with legs on fire.

Normally, ones legs being on fire has consequences, just like assaulting a dred has consequences. But the ?adverb? (my language lessons were so long ago!) only modifies the verb. Thus, the only thing that happens in regards to disembarking and charging in this case is to have the ork attack.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Technically it breaks the existing rules and would be in bad form to do in a game.

How?

It doesn't, GBF doesnt have any rules to back that assertion up and has been asked many times to explain it, to no success.

I wouldnt hold out much hope.

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So I registered just now specifically to point out to everyone saying that the boarding plank does not work on dreadnoughts or that dreadnoughts should get a counterattack are wrong. RAW are pretty clear here. Vehicles get hit; dreadnoughts are vehicles. It may not make complete sense, but you have to roll with the punches, not bitch about how they were illegal.

That said, it is the lamest and dumbest rule ever, and I have faith in GW that they will fix this inadequacy immediately. Just about every rule in WH40k is to serve either gameplay or the reality of the game. The concept of a boarding plank is fine. Truck rolls up to a tank, they lower a 2x4, a nob walks out, wails on the tank a bit, and runs back. Seems like a lot of work to happen in any short bit of time, but fine.

The problem is, in the time it would take for an I2/I1(w/PK) ork to lower a 2x4 onto MY head (and certainly the head of the dreadnought I will one day be in control of) I would deliver him my own 40 lb. box of rape. The piece of wargear in question is a "Boarding Plank." It is not a driveby rail, and nothing about it's name or description indicates that the vehicle need be moving. For the sake of reality, the vehicle would have to be quite stationary for a boarding plank to be used. But hey, that's a lame point, so I'll move on.

When attacking a vehicle, you just hit it, because it cannot dodge your attacks. The exception is that if it moved, you might miss. Makes sense. Infantry (and walkers) have a WS, which means they are always hard to hit, because they have skill in melee combat, so there's no such thing as a free hit, because they actively avoid attacks. If my deadnought is paying enough attention to backstep/parry your attack, why can he not riposte? Presumably you're standing on a plank no more than inches (to scale) from my DCCW. If the ork is, at any point, close enough to deal CC damage to a dreadnought, then, logically, the dreadnought would be close enough to use his. The only fluff argument that could possibly be made is that the dreadnought must not be paying attention.

So it seems that this argument boils down to whether or not the pilots (or whatever you might call them; inhabitants/residents, prisoners, etc) of dreadnoughts are attentive in combat. I think the answer is a definite yes. Realistically, in any situation, getting within spitting distance of a dreadnought is a bad idea. I could see some form of driveby attack being effective to avoid counterattack (though I think a dreadnought would still just hulk smash the trukk). However, a boarding plank would be useless in a driveby (except perhaps as a weapon). As the boarding plank exists, it would make sense that the user of the boarding plank would only have time for one attack if a walker's retaliation is impossible, and multiple if it is. I could see a fix in that. Hell, make the attacks simultanous if you want. As it stands, if your trukk gets within 2" of my dreadnought, odds are he's dining in hell tonight. That's just not fair, since that wargear is basically "magic thing - pick a vehicle within 2" and kill it. Then spit in your opponents face as you claim orks are balanced"

Don't get me wrong, I love orks. They're just a lot cooler than most of the other races. The only problem is that it seems that the rules changes recently have converted them from a numerous melee powerhouse to a "jack of all trades, and heck, while we're at it, master of all trades too" race. I'd play them if I didn't already get enough gak for playing crons (that's right, I dual lith at 1500. cry more.)

IMO Free, unanswered attacks are fine if they cost points. A full array of vehicle-popping attacks utilized against a vehicle that is supposed to be a melee powerhouse is a bit far. In my opinion, the least you could do is make the plank only work on a 4+ or something against dreadnoughts, because at least half of the time the dreadnought would just crunch the plank in half if they tried to lower one onto it.
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PS. Hello dakka²

I don't get the arguments about it being unrealistic to boarding plank a dreadnought - it's not like this is reality, but even aside from that... Nowhere does it say that the Ork vehicle in question drives up, parks next to the dreadnought and busts out a boarding plank.

Hitting an Ork leaning out of a fast moving Trukk would probably be pretty hard, that is if you even notice him. Anyway, plank attacks don't hit automatically so there essentially already is a "only works on a 4+" in place.

Also, Orks are balanced and Necrons are generally considered one of the worst armies in 5th editions

Oh and welcome to Dakka =]

I've already explained why the dreadnaught gets to hit. This is one case where I don't agree with the INAT FAQ and it is far from an official document.

G

This is just another Opinion, i know im not a Raw Master, but..... if we all step back and take a look at the situation at hand. Yes not words or rules, but imagine a fluff'd out picture. We all See this Attack as something different, and in all honosty the upgrade is just allowing you to do something "interesting" which is what i think Orks are all about, i mean seriously, Wierdboys are just Hilarious, as are Shokk attack Guns.

But the story i would like to express, the Vision i see of this "Grand" Cheese, this Amazing Warp tunnel and all around fun of the "Plank" is this (this happened to me in a fight, and i got angry, but its ok, cause i eventually got that darn trukk) This is a very abusable abilite to take down vehicles, but i dygress.

I see the trukk speeding up, and the nob inside getting ready by the makeshift ramshackled metal plates held in place by Grots, Glue, and some other stuff we dun wanna know about, a few Grots inside begin to lower a makeshift pip with some planks nailed to it, as the ork leans out holding this thing as if his life depended on it (and it does) as he lets his other power klaw'd hand hangs loose in the open air as he readys his attack on the unsespecting vehicle.

Now, that bit o fluff makes sence to the rule, what dosn't is that there are no "negative" effects to this rule. Almost everything orkish has some negativity to it right? Wierd boys can kill themselves, Stormboyz can crash and burn, Shokk guns can shoot the gunner into an enemy. So Deffrolla's Bikers, and Planks have no downside? Sooo the game i played had the guy running 6 trukks, with 6 boy squads with 6 nobs, with 6 power klawz, and they jumped all over the place and popped vehicles cause as long as they are in 2" they can no problem.

Now, looking at that, and back into the fluff and the sitting back, we get back to the nob, who is speeding toward the vehicle. So he misses? nothing bad happens right? he just wiffed it, no biggie! We can all see this easy enough, if he hits, the Trukk speed + power klaw = Ouchie! we can all see that too, the problem now is that he isn't preying on some random Rhino! oh no! he is going after the big bad dreadnaught, the thing that makes eldar cry at night, Hormogaunts run for their Tyrants, and Orks get their Nobbies! So what happens when our Dashing Ork Nob swings at the Dreadnaught? well unlike a rhino, this thing moves, and fights back, and is generally SKILLED at it! So the ork swings, and misses? uh oh, if it was truly orkish, he would probably get knocked out of the trukk and be standing infront of the doom machine that knocked him out, if he hits the thing, then the Dreadnaught suffers Trukk speed + Powerklaw = Ouch equasion.

Sooooo that afor mentioned game, He popped 3 rhinos, 1 Razorback, and 2 Dreadnaughts, both Venerable, and i didn't even scratch the trukk, since he moved it 6" forward, and 6" back for the 12" roll, where i now need "6"s to hit. And sometimes he just LoS'd me behind a wall and hit me from 2" away though i couldn't see to shoot. Ugh.

That dosn't scream Orky... Is it what GW intended? who cares! we are the players, we discussed it as the players we are (i know! blasphamey!) and decided if he rolled 1's with his nobs the next game, his nob would fall out on its face and be locked into combat with the dread. But only on Dreads since Vehicles can't do nothing anyhow!



Now. Sitting back and rumaging threw that rubbish i just posted, i admit i hate boarding planks, Deffrollas, and nob bikers, and i know that threw Raw Ork players can Easily Abuse their lists. We may not like it, we may not agree with it........and i actually enjoy reading everyone's take on it. this is just one solution we used, it made me feel better (cause he did roll a few 1's and nob is out!) and he felt better cause he didn't make a fellow gamer feel bad :(

Nightrave wrote:Sitting back and rumaging threw that rubbish i just posted, i admit i hate boarding planks, Deffrollas, and nob bikers, and i know that threw Raw Ork players can Easily Abuse their lists.

How does playing by the rules in the rulebook = abuse?

And GBF has no RAW legs to stand on, at all.
The ork doesn't count as disembarked or assaulting or charging or in base contact... he doesn't count as anything. THE ORK gets to make ITS attacks AS IF it were disembarked and charging. That's all that the rule says happens, so that's all that happens.

You get the attacks, dread does not, even in cc.

Sooooo that afor mentioned game, He popped 3 rhinos, 1 Razorback, and 2 Dreadnaughts, both Venerable, and i didn't even scratch the trukk, since he moved it 6" forward, and 6" back for the 12" roll, where i now need "6"s to hit. And sometimes he just LoS'd me behind a wall and hit me from 2" away though i couldn't see to shoot. Ugh.

How the hell do you not kill an AV10, open topped trukk before it kills half your army? I mean, do you realize how incredibly insanely lucky it'd have to be to accomplish all of this? Either that, or you didn't have a single ranged weapon in the entire army.

I mean, BOLTERS can kill trukks for crying out loud >_<

Btw, if you move 6" forward and then 6" back, it only counts as moving 6", you only measure how far it went from its starting position when it comes to determining this stuff.

@number9dream & Nightrave: I'm pretty sure that moving 6" forward and 6" back is specifically mentioned as not moving at all in the area where the rulebook also mentions fast vehicles getting their invulnerable save.

@The rest: The question you are all asking is, "is this boarding plank too OP?" and the answer is no. What happend in the tourny is what should have happend if for no other reason then to teach the other player to pay attention, there is no reason that a AV10 vehicle should get within 2" of a dread esspecially if the vehicle in question is < 12" away!

Now to answer Dashes question: I think that if the Dread was capable of assault the previous turn then the Nob has to roll against his WS. If the Dread is in CC with another unit or any other situation where it would not be able to fight in CC then it's an automatic hit for the Nob. This is brutailly OP but the use of a boarding plank in this fashion is increadibly risky since popping those ork trucks is kind of easy, in addition to the casualties the infantry WILL sustain distracting the walker. Also, in the event that the Nob does miss then the Truck is toast the next turn as long as the Dread isn't tied up in CC.

The idea of treating a Dread as a stationary vehicle is a contridiction to fluff. If it's standing it's ground it would be more ready for an assault then if it were running, this is quite the opposite of a vehicle which would need to be driving to avoid being hit.

You are correct, my bad. (funny thing is I actually looked the rule up to be sure but still wrote the wrong thing in my reply ;]). It's right after the Vehicles and Assaults table.

Poor Bjorn the super-dread always dies a pathetic death when my boarding planks show up.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I've already explained why the dreadnaught gets to hit. This is one case where I don't agree with the INAT FAQ and it is far from an official document.

G

No, you have explained why you *think* the dreadnought shoudl get to hit, unfortunately the rules entirely disagree with you.

You are *entirely* unable to show permission for the Dread to hit, as it is not in BtB with the Ork and thereffore cannot hit.