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This is definitely going to need a faq, probably really an errata but knowing GW they will faq it.

There is a reasonable interpretation that this is a psychic power akin to the eldar warlocks powers, since they all operate automatically with no tests. But that would require a faq/ errata since its not RAW.

Another reason that the "doom" needs some faqing is that it doesnt actually get an invulnerable save, per the RAW. It tells us to see pg 44 when it mentions warp field....and on pg 44 we just see that this other type of unit called zoanthrope gets a 3+ invuln save. But not the Doom, since its not a zoanthrope. The warp field part RAI is clear, but the rest of it gets murky.

How this ones going to end up is anyones guess.



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CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference).
The Eldar FAQ has as much sway over the Nid Codex as the SW one did (i.e. none). Also, plenty of "abilities" affect units in transports. One such "ability" is the "Gets Hot!" rule. Another is the "Soulless" rule found on Pariahs and Cullexus Assassins.
The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.
Here is a humble guess. The two abilities are different? Because the PoM doesn't need to be in a certain range? The list goes on I assure you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sliggoth wrote:This is definitely going to need a faq, probably really an errata but knowing GW they will faq it.
Hah, gotta love how we already know how GW are gonna mess up.
Another reason that the "doom" needs some faqing is that it doesnt actually get an invulnerable save, per the RAW. It tells us to see pg 44 when it mentions warp field....and on pg 44 we just see that this other type of unit called zoanthrope gets a 3+ invuln save. But not the Doom, since its not a zoanthrope. The warp field part RAI is clear, but the rest of it gets murky.

Yup, I pointed it out (at least I think I was the first one to point it out, apologies to whoever did if I was not) a while back

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/01/31 04:55:17


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"No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical"

Actually, there's at least one. Spirit Sight, from an Eldar Warlock. If you have a unit of Wraithguard in a transport, and that transport is within 6" of a warlock, they don't have to test for wraithsight paralysis.

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

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CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference). The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.


So you would have a problem with any ability as long as it is the only one in the game, then? Would you say that Daemonhunters force weapons do not really kill outright because no other ability does this? What about Mawlocks inflicting hits on units they arrive underneath of? I'm pretty sure nothing else in the game can do that.
   
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Brother Ramses wrote:So then RAW versus RAW:

Doom of Malan'tai Spirit Leech Ability states:

"...every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6"...."

What is the first thing you would then do to determine if a Rhino with a tactical squad is within that 6" radius?

Well per the BRB, you measure to the hull of a vehicle to determine the range to the unit.

But the rule just said non-vehicle units within 6" and yet I am measuring range to a vehicle. Am I not breaking the very DoM rule?

The rule specifies a non-vehicle enemy unit. If I am measuring to the hull of a VEHICLE to determine the range to the unit, how is it possibly a non-vehicle enemy unit and therefore subject to Spirit Leech?

So those that point out that Spirit Leech is an area affect condition and not a psychic power or shooting attack. I agree. It is as some of you said, an aura or condition affecting non-vehicle units within 6"

However, say my above rhino transport moves into difficult terrain, do I roll 2d6 for the 10 man squad in it to determine how far the rhino moves? Since vehicles treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, would I roll 10 dice for the squad and any 1's are removed as casualties? This is just a condition or "aura" of moving in difficult/dangerous terrain.

So while the in-game mechanics exhibit through several examples that the unit is treated as a vehicle when embarked what makes the DoM suddenly special? It isn't RAW since the rule does say non-vehicle enemy units and the tactical squad inside said transport is treated as part of the vehicle until they disembark, the vehicle is destroyed, or they shoot from a firing point.


Question. If you have guard vets (BS4) inside a transport vehicle that come within 6" of Dante, do you play them as having BS3 or BS4? The mechanic for DoM works the exact same way, and I know that I play them at BS3 when within 6 as per Dante's rule. . .


So, just to sum up the last half page of posts, there are tons of auras that affect units inside a transport, this one just happens to do damage. . . it's RAW, it makes the Doom good, just gotta get used to it. I play it purposefully against raw in friendly games because a) it ticks people off and b) I'm tired of arguing it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/31 08:59:32


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And yet at what time does the bs upgrade affect them? When the rules specifically changes their condition from a vehicle unit to a separate non-vehicle unit via a fireport, when they disembark, or when the vehicle is destroyed. Until then it doesn't have any affect.

Does this affect the vehicle gunners as well? DoM makes no mention of the vehicle crew.
   
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Brother Ramses wrote:And yet at what time does the bs upgrade affect them? When the rules specifically changes their condition from a vehicle unit to a separate non-vehicle unit via a fireport, when they disembark, or when the vehicle is destroyed. Until then it doesn't have any affect.

Does this affect the vehicle gunners as well? DoM makes no mention of the vehicle crew.



Nooo.... it affects them as soon as they enter the range of the aura. It just happens to not matter until they try to shoot. Them walking up to the fireport does not magically make the aura affect them. It's on all the time, as soon as they are in range.

Just because it doesn't have a significant effect doesn't mean that it isn't active, and it doesn't say, "while they are shooting" or "when they disembark", it says, "when they are within 6 inches".


Also, it doesn't affect vehicle gunners, but that was never under debate anyway.

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I have a question that I think has not being answered which in my opinion would make this ability to be used on troops inside of a vehicle unable to function. What happens when the unit fails its leadership save and has to fall back while in the vehicle?

Vehicles are not affected by any form of leadership so it would not fall back and it would remain stationary.

The unit inside however has to fall back if they have failed (p45, "Fall Back!") but they cannot disembark because you only do that in the movement phase.

So what should happen now that they have failed there leader ship test? Do units forced to Fall Back that are inside transports dismount and then fall back? (which you cannot technically do int eh shooting phase) Or are they simply destroyed as the transport model is a friendly unit that stops them from moving?

Im curious to see what other people will come up with.

Im in the mind since you cannot complete the ability due to not being able to make the unit fall back it should not be able to be used on a unit in a vehicle. Just my two cents.

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It's unclarified and a rather large grey area. It doesn't mean that these abilities don't work though, otherwise you would never be able to fire a plasma gun from a chimera for fear of "gets hot" rolls.

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Lukus83 wrote:It's unclarified and a rather large grey area. It doesn't mean that these abilities don't work though, otherwise you would never be able to fire a plasma gun from a chimera for fear of "gets hot" rolls.


I don't understand how being in a vehicle would stop a gets hot from wounding the firer of the weapon. Its a pretty straight forward rule if your asking me. What im asking however is not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/31 10:50:47


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Golga wrote:I have a question that I think has not being answered which in my opinion would make this ability to be used on troops inside of a vehicle unable to function. What happens when the unit fails its leadership save and has to fall back while in the vehicle?

Vehicles are not affected by any form of leadership so it would not fall back and it would remain stationary.

The unit inside however has to fall back if they have failed (p45, "Fall Back!") but they cannot disembark because you only do that in the movement phase.

So what should happen now that they have failed there leader ship test? Do units forced to Fall Back that are inside transports dismount and then fall back? (which you cannot technically do int eh shooting phase) Or are they simply destroyed as the transport model is a friendly unit that stops them from moving?

Im curious to see what other people will come up with.

Im in the mind since you cannot complete the ability due to not being able to make the unit fall back it should not be able to be used on a unit in a vehicle. Just my two cents.



It never says disembarkation only happens in the movement phase. It says VOLUNTARY disembarkation is only in the movement phase, but a unit may be forced to disembark if the vehicle is destroyed. Another instance this might occur is a fallback move.

What do you think happen if a 5 man unit loses 2 models to gets hot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Golga wrote:
Lukus83 wrote:It's unclarified and a rather large grey area. It doesn't mean that these abilities don't work though, otherwise you would never be able to fire a plasma gun from a chimera for fear of "gets hot" rolls.


I don't understand how being in a vehicle would stop a gets hot from wounding the firer of the weapon. Its a pretty straight forward rule if your asking me. What im asking however is not.


Because, just like DoM, losing 25% squad to gets hot causes a morale check, which if failed ends up with the very problem you posed...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/31 10:56:09


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Not if the get's hot rolls result in a morale check due to casualties. It's happened to me before. So according to your opinion you wouldn't be able to use them...

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Kurgash wrote:Are Nid players really that desperate for a handout from under the table, looking for as much twisting of a rule to get a slight edge? This is the 7th guy ask this question TODAY, from Dakka and FLGS.

No. Unit in transport, unit is not actively on the table aside firing weapons from inside. Cannot affect inside the vehicle, you affect the vehicle. End of story. Let's PLEASE put this to rest.

Then please explain how a psychic hood outside a transport can stop a psyker inside a transport from using his ability. I mean he is not on the table to trigger the hoods effect right? Or is he on the table to trigger the hoods effect but not the Dooms effect. And no it's not about Nid players being desperate it's about being consistant with your rules ands not all emo whining about how something might adversely affect you precious favorite army.
   
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[
Another reason that the "doom" needs some faqing is that it doesnt actually get an invulnerable save, per the RAW. It tells us to see pg 44 when it mentions warp field....and on pg 44 we just see that this other type of unit called zoanthrope gets a 3+ invuln save. But not the Doom, since its not a zoanthrope. The warp field part RAI is clear, but the rest of it gets murky.



If you are stating that Doom is not a Zoanthrope.....then what is he then? That brings another question what is the Deathleaper? Is not a Lichtor..........then his rules are gimp then.

Doom and Deatherleaper are a special character name , one is a type of zoanthrope and the other is Lichtor

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Gwar! wrote:
CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference).
The Eldar FAQ has as much sway over the Nid Codex as the SW one did (i.e. none). Also, plenty of "abilities" affect units in transports. One such "ability" is the "Gets Hot!" rule. Another is the "Soulless" rule found on Pariahs and Cullexus Assassins.
The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.
Here is a humble guess. The two abilities are different? Because the PoM doesn't need to be in a certain range? The list goes on I assure you.


It doesn't matter that there different of course there not gonna do the same thing but why in all hell would you not put on the ability that it can affect units in vehicals if you did on another pages before. Having had other codexes FAQ'd to say they can't when the codex doesn't list they can it only makes sense that he can't affect units in vehicals since it is not listed.

Next gets hot is a weapons rule not an Ability like a spell or power. Also the LD reducers of the two listed examples follow things like Pedros +1 attack which is granted regardless of where you are.

By your logic my Jaws of the world wolf can hit units in vehicals it can't hit the vehical but the guys inside are fethed.

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Let's say the Tyranid unit was within effective range of a DE WWP. Would the DE units held in reserve be affected?

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It's pretty safe to say the Tyranid Codex has highlighted a few rules gaps. There are a few logic holes that need to be filled and some clarification on exactly what happens to a unit embarked in a transport with relationship to other Codex rules.

I predict a blanket rule that states units inside vehicles are immune to these other effects unless specifically stated in the Codex. It still won't answer the LD test for embarked units, which GW will leave a gray area until W40K 6th Edition.
   
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The Green Git wrote:It's pretty safe to say the Tyranid Codex has highlighted a few rules gaps. There are a few logic holes that need to be filled and some clarification on exactly what happens to a unit embarked in a transport with relationship to other Codex rules.

I predict a blanket rule that states units inside vehicles are immune to these other effects unless specifically stated in the Codex. It still won't answer the LD test for embarked units, which GW will leave a gray area until W40K 6th Edition.


"A few"? Something of an understatement. But your prediction about a blanket statement makes sense though.

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Gwar! wrote:
CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference).
The Eldar FAQ has as much sway over the Nid Codex as the SW one did (i.e. none).


Careful Gwar!, this is only a partial truth. Codex FAQs may affect USRs (or similar 'global' rule mechanic) which in turn affect all armies. Which is exactly what happened with the SW FAQ (until GW issued a reversal). So a better way to say this would be, GW Codex FAQs may have an indirect effect over others.

With regards to the Doom, I would not stop a player from including my embarked units in it's area of effect. I see no reason why I shouldn't be made to check. So what if my unit is embarked in a transport. How difficult is it really to make the check and remove the models from an embarked unit? For those folks hung up on where to measure to determine if a unit is affected, I'd measure to the hull.

-Yad
   
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CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference). The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.

Ok the next time you try to psychic hood JOWW when the priest is in his transport remind me how NO OTHER ABILITY in the game affects units from outside a vehicle.
   
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Yad wrote:
With regards to the Doom, I would not stop a player from including my embarked units in it's area of effect. I see no reason why I shouldn't be made to check. So what if my unit is embarked in a transport.
-Yad


I do!

It costs frickin' 90 points. "Hi I totally screw all of your units even while they're inside something designed both fluff and rules wise to protect them."

If it cost 200 points, I'd believe that. But it doesn't, it's incredibly cheap.

But hey, if you want it to target units in vehicles, then it's not getting a 3+ invulnerable save. It's a Tyranid creature known as The Doom of Malan'Tai, not a Zoanthrope [that's a separate entry, see it?]. Warp Field gives Zoanthropes a 3+ invulnerable save. I mean hey I'm just going by RAW here....

Also, The Swarmlord can't gain wounds from Leech Life, and can't use Psychic Scream - both powers mention "The Hive Tyrant", and no Hive Tyrant is using them. They're being used by The Swarmlord.

Unfortunately that also means that if you have the Swarmlord and no Hive Tyrants, then Paroxysm becomes permanent, because there's no Hive Tyrant's turn for it to expire on lol.

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In order to use the effect of the doom in the first place, mustn't you measure to a vehicles hull in order for it to work on it's passengers?

The power explicitly states that it cannot affect a vehicle, hence making the usage on a vehicle or it's embarked troops illegal?


Just a thought.



I hope this gets both an errata and a FAQ just in case, 'cos if this gets through..
i don't dare think of all the situation that could derive a new and awkward effect from using doom as an example.
   
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arachnid wrote:In order to use the effect of the doom in the first place, mustn't you measure to a vehicles hull in order for it to work on it's passengers?

The power explicitly states that it cannot affect a vehicle, hence making the usage on a vehicle or it's embarked troops illegal?
Errm... That makes no sense? Just because how you measure the range is altered, does not alter the fact it is affecting the non-vehicle unit inside.

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So Gwar!, how does this line of thought affect Necron abilities such as Nightmare Shroud or Etheric Tempest? I don't have my codex in front of me, but I believe those abilities affect all units within a specified range.
   
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Spellbound wrote:
Yad wrote:
With regards to the Doom, I would not stop a player from including my embarked units in it's area of effect. I see no reason why I shouldn't be made to check. So what if my unit is embarked in a transport.
-Yad


I do!

It costs frickin' 90 points. "Hi I totally screw all of your units even while they're inside something designed both fluff and rules wise to protect them."

If it cost 200 points, I'd believe that. But it doesn't, it's incredibly cheap.

But hey, if you want it to target units in vehicles, then it's not getting a 3+ invulnerable save. It's a Tyranid creature known as The Doom of Malan'Tai, not a Zoanthrope [that's a separate entry, see it?]. Warp Field gives Zoanthropes a 3+ invulnerable save. I mean hey I'm just going by RAW here....

Also, The Swarmlord can't gain wounds from Leech Life, and can't use Psychic Scream - both powers mention "The Hive Tyrant", and no Hive Tyrant is using them. They're being used by The Swarmlord.

Unfortunately that also means that if you have the Swarmlord and no Hive Tyrants, then Paroxysm becomes permanent, because there's no Hive Tyrant's turn for it to expire on lol.


Fine, then your regimental advisors can't fire a str 9 ap 3 ordnance barrage! I mean, c'mon, it can't be intended, he only costs frickin' 30pts!!!!!!!lawl!! If he cost 100 pts, I would believe that!

If your rules interpretations are based on points value and not on what the rule says, then you aren't arguing RAW

Also, if Doom doesn't work, then your psychic hood can't affect my psychic choir inside their chimera!!! yay enjoy your LD2!

Also, if Doom doesn't work, Dante can't reduce my vets inside a chimera to BS3!

Also, if Doom doesn't work, then I don't have to take any more pesky gets hot rolls inside my chimeras anymore!!! Weeeeeee!






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Marshal_Gus wrote:So Gwar!, how does this line of thought affect Necron abilities such as Nightmare Shroud or Etheric Tempest? I don't have my codex in front of me, but I believe those abilities affect all units within a specified range.


Etheric Tempest and Nightmare Shroud affect units with a model within 6". Although a transported unit might be in range, none of it's models would be within range. Specific, but true by a literal interpretation of the rules.

   
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apwill4765 wrote:

Fine, then your regimental advisors can't fire a str 9 ap 3 ordnance barrage! I mean, c'mon, it can't be intended, he only costs frickin' 30pts!!!!!!!lawl!! If he cost 100 pts, I would believe that!

If your rules interpretations are based on points value and not on what the rule says, then you aren't arguing RAW

Also, if Doom doesn't work, then your psychic hood can't affect my psychic choir inside their chimera!!! yay enjoy your LD2!

Also, if Doom doesn't work, Dante can't reduce my vets inside a chimera to BS3!

Also, if Doom doesn't work, then I don't have to take any more pesky gets hot rolls inside my chimeras anymore!!! Weeeeeee!


Actually he's part of a unit of guys that costs more that you must buy, so he's really more points than that. Also, the shot is incredibly inaccurate and, yeah, a single S9 AP3 blast isn't very scary at all, especially if I'm in area terrain, have a KFF, have a 2+ save, or am in any kind of tank.

And as a matter of course, I don't give a DAMN what raw says half the time - hence, chaos terminators in our local stores fire to 24" cuz that's what makes sense and it's supposed to be.

I don't much care about your psychic choir, because I'm in a vehicle myself and I play chaos, who has no psychic defense.

Dante's a scrub, he can be as ineffective as you like - maybe people will start taking good units for a change.

Yes, you would have to take gets hot. No ability is affecting him, he's firing a weapon. That's as outlandish as saying you don't have to roll to hit, or that you can't fire, because the unit's not there.

Hey ya know what, I'm ok if in the end they say it's able to use it. I'm just going to go STRICTLY raw at that point and say he doesn't get a 3+ invulnerable save, too. I mean it's only fair right? He's not in fact a "zoanthrope".

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Spellbound wrote:
apwill4765 wrote:

Fine, then your regimental advisors can't fire a str 9 ap 3 ordnance barrage! I mean, c'mon, it can't be intended, he only costs frickin' 30pts!!!!!!!lawl!! If he cost 100 pts, I would believe that!

If your rules interpretations are based on points value and not on what the rule says, then you aren't arguing RAW

Also, if Doom doesn't work, then your psychic hood can't affect my psychic choir inside their chimera!!! yay enjoy your LD2!

Also, if Doom doesn't work, Dante can't reduce my vets inside a chimera to BS3!

Also, if Doom doesn't work, then I don't have to take any more pesky gets hot rolls inside my chimeras anymore!!! Weeeeeee!


Actually he's part of a unit of guys that costs more that you must buy, so he's really more points than that. Also, the shot is incredibly inaccurate and, yeah, a single S9 AP3 blast isn't very scary at all, especially if I'm in area terrain, have a KFF, have a 2+ save, or am in any kind of tank.

And as a matter of course, I don't give a DAMN what raw says half the time - hence, chaos terminators in our local stores fire to 24" cuz that's what makes sense and it's supposed to be.

I don't much care about your psychic choir, because I'm in a vehicle myself and I play chaos, who has no psychic defense.

Dante's a scrub, he can be as ineffective as you like - maybe people will start taking good units for a change.

Yes, you would have to take gets hot. No ability is affecting him, he's firing a weapon. That's as outlandish as saying you don't have to roll to hit, or that you can't fire, because the unit's not there.

Hey ya know what, I'm ok if in the end they say it's able to use it. I'm just going to go STRICTLY raw at that point and say he doesn't get a 3+ invulnerable save, too. I mean it's only fair right? He's not in fact a "zoanthrope".



Oh wow. Because it doesn't personally affect YOUR army you don't care if the correct rules interpretation is used. Nice. . .



One of the arguments against DoM is that if he forces a LD test on an embarked unit because of 25% casualties, and they fail, they can't fall back because you can't disembark in the shooting phase.

So, by this logic, Get's Hot won't work either, because it can also force a LD test due to 25% casualties.


Also, if you don't even care what the rules say, why are you on a forum that argues the rules? Just keep on playing Spellbound 40k and don't worry about even buying any codexes; what difference does it make anyway?

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