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I hear you Shep. I would be lieing if I didn't feel slightly the same way.

I am going to try and do a battle report against CaptKaruthors IG list.

It will be this list:

HQ:

Command squad w/ 2 meltas, AC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

TROOPS:

PCS w/ 2 meltas, Flamer
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC, PW, commissar with PW
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man vet squad with 3 meltas
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

6 man special weapons team w/ 2 meltas, flamer

ELITES:

6 man PBS
Mounted in chimmy w/ HF

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2 Hydras

Manticore w/ HF

Eradicator w/ Hull HF, 2 plasmacannons

FAST ATTACK:

Vendetta

Vendetta

Banewolf w/ HF



Versus this list:

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Scything Talons, Life Leech, Paroxym, Hive Commander, Ancient Enemy, Armored Shell = 260

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

2 Zoenthropes w/ Pod = 160

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

20 Termagaunts = 100

Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands. Toxin Sacs, Cluister Spines, Catalyst = 195

9 Genestealers = 126

9 Genestealers = 126

-Heavy Support-

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Total = 1847

Using Primer Scenario, if CK is willing to do a Batrep.

Shep wrote:
Lets all pray that librarian furioso dreads start just shredding mech gunlines with impunity using shockwave and that the storm harbingers armor 13 starts making the autocannon and missile launcher relics of the old days.... even owning thousands of dollars of IG, I am begging someone at GW to wreck my gunline list with a popular codex, one that isn't just another gunline. If we can just get IG and space marines/wolves to actually spend a reasonable amount of points for effective shooting, rather than 10 point autocannons/MLs then maybe that can open up some breathing room for a ground and pound nid army.

I'm pretty sure its going that way, or at least will accelerate in that direction if allying INQ Mystics/ good phood is removed with their new book. That would be the proverbial nail in the coffin for gunline guard keeping up with Shockwave.

Oh and spirit leech INAT didn't help much either....

Shep wrote:Lets all pray that librarian furioso dreads start just shredding mech gunlines with impunity using shockwave and that the storm harbingers armor 13 starts making the autocannon and missile launcher relics of the old days.... even owning thousands of dollars of IG, I am begging someone at GW to wreck my gunline list with a popular codex, one that isn't just another gunline. If we can just get IG and space marines/wolves to actually spend a reasonable amount of points for effective shooting, rather than 10 point autocannons/MLs then maybe that can open up some breathing room for a ground and pound nid army.

Until then, see you in planetstrike...

Since semi-mech gunlines are better, that might not be quite what you're looking for. Besides, autocannons are pretty bad against the 'Nids, unless you bring Harpies or have Hive Guard out of cover for some reason.

I think viable heavy venom cannons will remain atop the Tyranid wish list for quite some time, even if BA are ironically more of a metagame changer than Tyranids ended up being.

Then again, we could get 6th ed. in 2012...the edition in which they attempt to tweak mech but instead give it too much of a nerf.

I'm ready to batrep this when you are.

Mahu wrote:I hear you Shep. I would be lieing if I didn't feel slightly the same way.

I am going to try and do a battle report against CaptKaruthors IG list.

It will be this list:

HQ:

Command squad w/ 2 meltas, AC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

TROOPS:

PCS w/ 2 meltas, Flamer
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC, PW, commissar with PW
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man vet squad with 3 meltas
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

6 man special weapons team w/ 2 meltas, flamer

ELITES:

6 man PBS
Mounted in chimmy w/ HF

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2 Hydras

Manticore w/ HF

Eradicator w/ Hull HF, 2 plasmacannons

FAST ATTACK:

Vendetta

Vendetta

Banewolf w/ HF



Versus this list:

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Scything Talons, Life Leech, Paroxym, Hive Commander, Ancient Enemy, Armored Shell = 260

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

2 Zoenthropes w/ Pod = 160

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

20 Termagaunts = 100

Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands. Toxin Sacs, Cluister Spines, Catalyst = 195

9 Genestealers = 126

9 Genestealers = 126

-Heavy Support-

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Total = 1847

Using Primer Scenario, if CK is willing to do a Batrep.

gorgon wrote:I think viable heavy venom cannons will remain atop the Tyranid wish list for quite some time, even if BA are ironically more of a metagame changer than Tyranids ended up being.

Then again, we could get 6th ed. in 2012...the edition in which they attempt to tweak mech but instead give it too much of a nerf.

Would it already be the end of the world by2012, what's the point to play wargame then?

Fetterkey wrote:Since semi-mech gunlines are better, that might not be quite what you're looking for. Besides, autocannons are pretty bad against the 'Nids, unless you bring Harpies or have Hive Guard out of cover for some reason.

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

And as to the semi-mech thing... I agree, my space wolves gunlines have foot long fang units and my IG armies have HWS. But they aren't the problem. Nids COULD throw stranglethorn cannons at those units while moving forward, or outflank/infiltrate some genestealers to threaten them. What is shutting down my nids is the fact that they have one slot with ranged anti-armor, and one slot with 265 point combination ranged/CC. Could I get a meltagun on my podding warriors? How about something in fast attack that isn't a single -1 on damage table lascannon for 170 points? Until I can get 'real' fire support spread over at least three different FOC slots... then this army is an aggro deep striker army unless you just want to give up games against any gunline.


As far as what would make a ground and pound nid army work, they just need more long range (at least 36" assault) consistent tank kill.

Robin chickened out on the venom cannon, its really sad that I'd actually prefer the two shot strength 10 glancing hit only gun that we used to have. Give me 3 of those in heavy, three in fast attack and a couple units of hive guard and I'll deploy across from a gunline... until then, I'll just reserve and pod in. HVC should have just straight up been two strength 9 shots with no -1. Regular VCs should have been autocannons. If you think that would make nids a gunline, then you haven't seen what some of these space wolf and IG armies can do.

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

Why are you taking cover saves when they have a 3+ save? How is Fire on my Target hurting you at that point?

CaptKaruthors wrote:

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

Why are you taking cover saves when they have a 3+ save? How is Fire on my Target hurting you at that point?

Hive Guard are 4+ saves, not 3+. Each twin-linked BS3 autocannon averages about 1/2 of a wound on a Hive Guard in cover; each autocannon HWS under Fire on my Target will often kill a HG.

Ah. I was told they were a 3+. Live an learn I guess.

That's my mistake, I may have confused the stat line of Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard. It would help if I read the codex, but I wonder how I could have gotten the two mixed up.

Shep wrote:Robin chickened out on the venom cannon, its really sad that I'd actually prefer the two shot strength 10 glancing hit only gun that we used to have. Give me 3 of those in heavy, three in fast attack and a couple units of hive guard and I'll deploy across from a gunline... until then, I'll just reserve and pod in. HVC should have just straight up been two strength 9 shots with no -1. Regular VCs should have been autocannons. If you think that would make nids a gunline, then you haven't seen what some of these space wolf and IG armies can do.

Agreed. Although, honestly, they should have just given up on clinging to the old idea that the VC is not good at destroying non-OT vehicles. After all, take the last codex's VC on a Fex, get rid of the rule about glances, and you have a Rupture Cannon. So obviously there's nothing inherently wrong with having a 2 shot S10 AP4 long range gun with no negative modifiers on vehicles, it just can't be the VC specifically. Go figure.

The Rupture Cannon is what the Heavy VC should be, and it should be available on both the C-fex and T-fex. The only difference should be that the T-fex is like the old souped-up godfex with the uber stat line, and the C-fex is the smaller version. But both should be able to load up on the HVC (by which I mean Rupture Cannon), Devourers, etc.

For that matter, about every Bio-Titan is covered in guns with a ridiculous number of S10 AP3 shots. The T-fex could have had a smaller version of this gun. A Biocannon with 4 S10 AP3 shots on a T-fex would go a long way toward making it worth its points. And honestly, I don't think it would make it broken or OP even at the current point value. It just wouldn't be so overpriced. The only reason the T-fex could even be remotely considered for a competitive build is just that there aren't any good alternatives.

I still think it's possible the HVC was a multi-blast weapon in earlier drafts. Fits the 2nd ed fluff/profile better -- a running theme in 40k these days -- and would have hit more reliably, although I also agree 100% the penetration penalty is a bad legacy issue. It's very curious that the weapon would go to a blast like the 2nd ed version but lose the multiple shots that it's always had, whether blasts or regular shooting. I guess one theory is that they were creating "design room" for the Tfex and the rupture cannon, but that doesn't make a ton of sense given that they don't have a Tfex kit to push.

It's frustrating. Everything is lined up for HVC Carnifexes to provide solid antitank support from the HS slots...except that the weapon itself isn't any good. And shouldn't look good to anyone who's played the game even a little. Huge miss by Cruddace there.

What if at the end GW FAQ says Hive commander gives +1 to reserve roll even when HT is in reserve , will that make a difference to fate of this codex?

I think it would improve the chances of an all reserve Tyranid list working quite well.

Something else to mention is that Heavy Venom Cannons don't suffer from their -1 to Damage rolls when directed at open-topped vehicles. Doesn't make it any better against a Leman Russ or Land Raider, but that gives it something against Battlewagons, skimmers, and so on.

ED209 wrote:What if at the end GW FAQ says Hive commander gives +1 to reserve roll even when HT is in reserve , will that make a difference to fate of this codex?

Not only would it greatly power up the reserve game of tyranids, but it would set a precedent that would force INAT to retro-actively reverse the astropath off-table ruling...

This would buff up the all-air-cav IG list, which would inject one more 'non-gunline' list into the metagame. One more list that a pure gunline like MaxOD or IG wouldn't enjoy facing.

Granted the IG gunline could use that same astropath to reserve out. But it isn't designed to function well from reserve. With tons of hydras and HWS, and infantry squads with heavy weapons in chimeras, its firepower is greatly diminished.

Any time you buff full off-table reserves... you hurt armies that have a devastating "top of turn one" volley.

Right now, its those armies that are really winning our 'full-flex' games in my club.

Ok then, that's another worm can. now I think the major problem with this codex is in the root, which can not be repaired by a FAQ, however I can live with a non competitive codex, no one will say nids are cheesy any more.

Played another game against IG yesterday, it was pretty rough. I was running:

Swarmlord
2 Tyrant Guard with Lashwhips
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes
3 Warriors, Boneswords, Poison, FC, Rending Claws
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon, Poison, FC, Catalyst, Cluster Spines
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers

I was up against a somewhat non-standard IG list. Had some typical units, but was lacking in a lot of the long-ranged AT of standard builds. It was (roughly):

CCS with Creed, Bodyguard, Company Standard
Psyker Battle Squad (9) in Chimera
PCS with Commissar and a Priest, with fighty dudes (I think) in Chimera
2 Platoon Squads with Grenade Launcher
HWS with 2 Missile Launchers, 1 Autocannon
Veteran Squad with 3 Flamers, Demolitions
Veteran Squad with 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma pistol on Sarge, Grenadiers
Veteran Squad with 3 Meltaguns, Plasma pistol on Sarge, Grenadiers
Veteran Squad with 2 Plasma, 1 Melta, Plasma pistol on Sarge, Grenadiers
Veteran Squad with Sgt. Bastonne, 3 Sniper Rifles, Lascannon Team, Cammo Cloaks
(note that all the Vet squads were on foot, something I'm not used to seeing much)
Banewolf (I think...the one with the Chem cannon)
LRBT, no frills
Medusa
Manticore

Well, multiple S8+ pie plates, so that's trouble, but on the other hand, very little long-range anti-MC guns (1 LC, 1 AC, 2 ML, 3 Sniper Rifles). It could be much worse. A big goal will be to burn down the plasma gun squads with Dakkafexes before they can do ridiculous damage.

I won't go through a play-by-play, but the following occurred:

Mission is Capture and Control, Pitched Battle.

He won the roll to go first. Ouch.

Zoeys died at top of 1. Couple to failed saves against 8+, last to a pair of random failed saves against other wounds.

The Tervigon couldn't roll for crap turn 1 and took 4 wounds. After that he kept up Catalyst on himself, which protected himself from taking any more wounds from the IG, but a Perils on turn 2 and turn 4 finished him off. Weak.

The Swarmlord massively butchered a random Platoon unit then got gunned down by tons of Plasma and Melta. He at least managed to hang on while he had a Guard in cover (so he could take cover saves, at least according to the INAT FAQ). Once the Guard bit it he died hard though. Not quite worth the 410 points for him and his retinue.

The Hive Guard brutalized pretty much everything they shot at. Generally, so did the Dakkafexes. Very happy with the performance of both of them. Hive Guard were basically the MVPs.

The Warriors got pulped by a Battlecannon when they failed 2 cover saves (one had previously failed a cover save against a Manticore missile). This happened around the same time the Tervigon killed itself, leaving me with no Synapse. The Warriors trying to stay in cover meant they never got close enough to do anything. They accomplished nothing this game. Probably should have left the Devourers on them, just gave them Claws for helping to pop vehicles.

Once I lost the Synapse, the IB tests killed me. On a very clutch turn (bottom of 5) when I had an opportunity to kill off the only Troop unit left by his objective, one Fex failed its test and had to charge the remnants of the PBS (which accomplished nothing for trying to win) and a unit of Hive Guard had to shoot at Bastonne's unit sitting there with 3+ cover, managing to kill a dude. If the game had ended on 5 it would have been a draw (or a win for me if I had enough control of my army to shoot down a unit of Guardsmen out of cover). On 6 another Hive Guard unit went wild and had to shoot uselessly at a LRBT instead of the Troops. He just managed (by exactly enough wounds with the last possible shot) to kill the last of my Termagants going to ground by my objective. Game ended on 6, win for the IG.

In the end, it was somewhat of a close game, but it was an uphill struggle for Nids the entire game. I had huge chunks of my army that were basically just fire magnets, and once my Synapse was all dead I just lost control of my army, and a game that could have still been a win turned into barely hanging on against being tabled. And that was against a Guard army that was not particularly meched up, had no Vendettas, and was generally lean on long-range heavy weapons. The player fully admitted that his army was primarily geared for close-range fighting against Marines, because that's all he ever seemed to play against.

I've got some ideas to help a few things, and a little more theorizing to do, but in the end I just can't get past the Guard. The fact that they're so vicious at wrecking the Synapse (which the army is more reliant on than it used to be, now that things like Fexes will go out of control) is an extra nail I hadn't even considered thus far.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

gorgon wrote:It's frustrating. Everything is lined up for HVC Carnifexes to provide solid antitank support from the HS slots...except that the weapon itself isn't any good. And shouldn't look good to anyone who's played the game even a little. Huge miss by Cruddace there.

Agreed. Also frustrating is the complete lack of variety that is present throughout the Guard. Want an artillery? We've got your choice of Basilisk, Medusa, Colossus, Griffon, Medusa with BB shells, or a mixture. Russes? We've got about 8 different variants, plus the options for different sponsons and front weapon. Plus the Manticore. Plus the Hydra. Plus the Deathstrike Missile (ha!). The Nid codex has so few options in so many slots. Heavy weapon? Well there's the mediocre HVC and the rupture cannon on the T-fex. Anything else and you better hope your target is within 24" (or closer). And the myriad of the other weapons are all so similar it almost doesn't make sense they're distinct weapons. The same T-fex has two other unique weapons, but beyond that, all the weapons look so similar. Why would I need distinct weapons for S6 AP- 6 shots, S5 AP5 6 Shots, a different S6 AP- 6 Shots, S6 AP- 2 shots, S5 AP5 3 shots, and S5 AP4 4 shots? Make some of these guns unique, do something special. And the range issue is brutal across the board...god forbid someone is farther than 18" away. Then I have a S5 AP- large blast, S4 AP5 large, S6 AP5 large, S6 AP4 small, and S4 AP4 large. Why so many different weapons that are so close to doing the same thing? Why not one that ignores cover (the Biovore's perhaps), one that causes pinning, one that makes them move as if in difficult terrain, get rid of a couple, and eliminate some redundancy?

There are just too many little things in the book that don't feel like anyone gave it half a minute's thought. The big problem is that when trying to build an army out of that book, despite all the options, I just don't really feel like I actually have all that many choices.

sirisaacnuton wrote:stuff

do you think if you drop the 3 Dakkafex and Warriors, add on 2 Trygon, a Tervigon, one more Tyrant Guard will make things different?

Lets face it the new Dex sucks - Ive got 12000 points of freshly painted bugs and Im disgusted with the new Dex. Ive stopped buying bugs and will continue to go with my Gunline Mech Spammed IG and Ultras until I get inspired again. The author to the new Bug Dex needs to go find something else to do. His or her game theory sucks.

I've tried them with various things in place of the Dakkafexes. I just keep coming back to them because they're fairly strong. Tested 2 Trygon 1 Mawloc in their place, and had my on-table portion wrecked while waiting for them to show (guys with +1 to reserves got shot down before it came into play). Also tested with a pair of T-fexes, I've said plenty about my opinions of their shortcomings.

As far as the Warriors vs. Tervigon issue...I really want 2 Tervigons. But I need to be able to handle some of the hard-ass fighty units. The Warriors and/or Swarmlord are pretty potent against Nobz and TWC. Massed Devourer spam and piles of Poison+FC Termagants are strong for countering Terminators when they get out of the LR. Not much stands up to Bloodcrushers, I mostly just hope enough forced saves will whittle them down (but I roll over and die to 24 Bloodcrushers with Kairos no matter what, I think).

So I keep coming around to wanting one of the following:
2 Tervigons...strong for objectives, but hardly any offense

Swarmlord...brutal against some things, but really needs 2 or 3 Guard and is just a huge pile of points

Kitted out Warriors with Tyranid Prime...also brutal against some things, but T4 no EW just isn't cutting it

I'm almost wondering about trying to answer my issues with hard units by having giant piles of Termagants or Hormagaunts (Poison+FC of course). Big piles of Termagants backed by Tervigons could give me an edge in some places, and attaching something like a Prime to one big unit could help protect some Synapse from long-range fire. I just feel like I'll be lacking too much in hitting power. Maybe something like this:

2 Tervigons (both Troops)
2x 15-20 Termagant units
15-20 Hormagaunts (Poison/FC)
Tyranid Prime with something for the HQ
2x 3 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes (or an additional 3 Hive Guard)
Trygon
Trygon Alpha
Mawloc

Not sure about the points there, but I just wonder how that would stack up. It seems like it could be good, I just worry about putting too much reliance on T3 6+ critters (even if they have FNP).

I've contemplated a Mawloc or Deathleaper to have something that can try to pop up and contest a late objective if necessary. Problem with the Mawloc is not being able to protect it early on, plus potential issues with scattering away from the objective. The Deathleaper can just be kept far enough back that it can't be shot (or can keep appearing and disappearing), then appear right on an objective. However, big issue there is 140 points not doing much of anything for most of the game, plus the loss of an Elite slot. (He would basically just replace an entire 3-man unit of Hive Guard, something that seems like it will almost always out-perform him.)

I'm going to try to give one more shot to an all-out in-your-face blitz. Trygons and/or Mawlocs, Ravenors, Mycetic Spores, maybe Ymgarl Stealers, maybe some Gargoyles or Hormagaunts. It seems strong against some stuff, and takes away the prospect of getting entirely shot down by Guard in the first couple turns. But I don't know if it's strong enough. Particulary, I don't know if it can do enough in to win a game that may end after turn 5, if my stuff shows up turn 2 and doesn't start doing much until turn 3. But I'll give it another shot.

So, nobody has said it, and I doubt anyone really cares, but the new Tyranid codex is a whole lot more fun to play against than the IG one, win or lose.

Win or lose huh I wont argue the point with you in that regard.

Personally I think its pathetic that Bugs ranged AT is terrible, their CC options for anti-tank arent much better due to the nerfing of rending AND their CC power against infantry is also nerfed because they dont get any form of Frag Grenade unless they're a Carnifex - which is initiative 1 anyway (face slap).

The redeeming qualities of the dex Ive found are:

Tyranid Prime,
Toxin Sac Genestealers,
Adrenal Warriors with Claws,
Gargoyles with adrenal glands

Biggest dissapointments - no frag grenades, Rupture Cannon not being Heavy 3, Ravenors not being able to Adrenal or toxin sacs, Lictor still not fixed, All MC's about 10% too much points wise.

There might be a competitive list in there somewhere that has game against IG or space marines

sirisaacnuton wrote:mini-batrep

Ok, no offense to the IG player that you played against, but his list was untuned, and from the pretty extensive testing I've been doing with nids in my group, your nid list was VERY tuned. I should qualify that by saying that it is tuned for a ground pounder list. This batrep has pretty much cemented my opinion that in this day and age, the only armies that can deploy on table are ridiculous gunlines, or land raider based assault speartips. Thanks for sharing that game result. I definitely believe in dakkafexes, and hive guard are one of the most points efficient shooters around. It's unfortunate that we don't have winged versions in fast attack . hell I'd even take units of 1-5 so i can field 15.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Lets face it the new Dex sucks - Ive got 12000 points of freshly painted bugs and Im disgusted with the new Dex. Ive stopped buying bugs and will continue to go with my Gunline Mech Spammed IG and Ultras until I get inspired again. The author to the new Bug Dex needs to go find something else to do. His or her game theory sucks.

Well, that author happened to be the one that wrote the IG dex as well, he just couldn't beat his first book with his second one. Call it a sophmore slump.

Also, I have actually had success with the all spore army. If you are like me that doesn't make it all better, because if I wanted to play a demon-like army, I'd just play demons... but in my testing I have found that a 10 drop pod dakkafex/zoanthrope/shooty warrior army can wreck 2 armor 12 vehicles and shake 2 more armor 12 vehicles on turn 2. If your scatters weren't wacky, and you purposely crashed a flank and built a decent wall of spore pods, you can start rolling the flank and take over a table half. That can win you annihilation games, and can win you seize ground games, if you got to place the objectives the way you wanted.

It really sucks that its the only list archetype I have found that can compete at the highest level of cut-throat competition, but if you lined up that spore pod list against my gunline IG army at a tourney, i would DEFINITELY need to put my game face on. Its actually a lot like the space wolf list that I lost a crucial game 4 match against in my last GT. Only it's actually better than that. So I know for a fact it can take down maxOD or IG.

So if you have the zoanthropes and the dakkafexes like I bet you do, then get a dozen warriors knocked together and buy some mega-bloks. The silver lining for nids, is that they have so many fun non-tourney units for expansion missions, that a guy like you with a big collection can have a lot of fun. For instance, I can't really think of a more overpowered pairing of units for planetstrike attackers than raveners and trygons. Defending a planestrike would be all kinds of devastating with hive guard in reserve, showing up from all sides of the table and popping everything armored with side and rear shots or just hanging out in bastions pumping out devastating salvoes. Tervigons powering up massive termagant tarpits would lock the game down and present a really fun challenge for people to try and get around them to score your objectives. A full lictor and genestealer list would just wreck shop big time in a cities of death mission, and I can't wait to see the details of the three tyranid specific missions in the battle missions book.

And I'm still holding out hope for some of these "johnny's" here on dakka to find something i didn't and post their results. A note to any "johnny". Before posting the list, please test it against one or more of these gunlines.

CCS 4x melta chimera
CCS 4x melta chimera
PCS 4x flamer chimera
infantry squad autocannon flamer chimera
infantry squad autocannon flamer chimera
HWS 3x autocannon
HWS 3x autocannon
HWS 3x autocannon
HWS 3x autocannon
veteran squad autocannon 3x melta chimera
vendetta with heavy bolters
vendetta with heavy bolters
vendetta with heavy bolters
2x hydras
2x hydras
2x hydras

or

rune priest with living lightning and jaws and chooser of the slain
3x wolf guard 3x combi-meltas razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
3x wolf guard 3x combi-meltas razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
3x wolf guard 3x combi-meltas razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles

or

master of the forge with conversion beamer
dreadnought with two twin-linked autocannons
dreadnought with two twin-linked autocannons
dreadnought with two twin-linked autocannons
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
predator with heavy bolter sponsons
predator with heavy bolter sponsons
predator with heavy bolter sponsons

note: other than the IG list, credit needs to go to Stelek for the majority of the list design concepts in the second two gunlines. Also, I'll note that these aren't lists I'd ever take to a tourney, as they are boring, predictable, undynamic and can and will make grown men cry. What they do for sure is just CRUSH armies that can't repel firepower, or can't deep strike in front of them.

While boring and unpredictable I hesitate to call them undynamic. They can all respond fairly well to changes on the battlefield due to all the transport options.

Shep wrote:

sirisaacnuton wrote:mini-batrep

Ok, no offense to the IG player that you played against, but his list was untuned, and from the pretty extensive testing I've been doing with nids in my group, your nid list was VERY tuned. I should qualify that by saying that it is tuned for a ground pounder list. This batrep has pretty much cemented my opinion that in this day and age, the only armies that can deploy on table are ridiculous gunlines, or land raider based assault speartips. Thanks for sharing that game result. I definitely believe in dakkafexes, and hive guard are one of the most points efficient shooters around. It's unfortunate that we don't have winged versions in fast attack . hell I'd even take units of 1-5 so i can field 15.

I agree. I felt like it was definitely the best I could hope for from an IG list...certainly not as stacked against Nids as other Guard I've seen...and I still lost and almost got tabled. Like I said, it was close, and a couple rolls going differently could have squeaked out a win, but it still doesn't bode well for the Nids when a match-up like that still goes to IG.

I do love the Hive Guard even more after this game. It was the first time I've fired them at infantry...they can certainly make a unit disappear when wearing 4+ or worse. Very nasty against guys who are standing behind other guys for cover. Makes me wish they could go like Necron Destroyers and be 1-5 per slot. I'd totally play them.

Shep wrote:
Also, I have actually had success with the all spore army. If you are like me that doesn't make it all better, because if I wanted to play a demon-like army, I'd just play demons... but in my testing I have found that a 10 drop pod dakkafex/zoanthrope/shooty warrior army can wreck 2 armor 12 vehicles and shake 2 more armor 12 vehicles on turn 2. If your scatters weren't wacky, and you purposely crashed a flank and built a decent wall of spore pods, you can start rolling the flank and take over a table half. That can win you annihilation games, and can win you seize ground games, if you got to place the objectives the way you wanted.

I have to agree with you here. I already have a Daemon army, one of the things I was most looking forward to with the Nids was an army I can always deploy and start with the entire thing reliably.

What kind of shooty warriors are we talking about? I've put guns on them to go with the Bonesword/Poison/FC so they have a threat besides combat, but haven't tested enough to make a case either way. Devourer spam or pay the points to up to Deathspitters? Also, 1 VC or BS? I tried one VC for a bit, as one extra thing that could maybe pop a Rhino/Razorback/Trukk/Chimera (in side armor), but was never overly impressed with it. Haven't played with the BS.

One thing I keep wanting to try is Raveners. Anyone messed with these? Every time I want to test them, I end up wanting to give them Poison and FC, and being disappointed they can't take it, then being disgusted by the fact that if any unit in the entire codex should be able to take Adrenal and Toxin it's the Raveners, and they can't. Then I just end up going with something else instead. But it seems like even without Adrenal/Toxin they could still be something fairly decent to just start on the table, thanks to their huge threat range. But are they too fragile for their points? Or do they even hit hard enough for their points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kaiservonhugal wrote:Personally I think its pathetic that Bugs ranged AT is terrible, their CC options for anti-tank arent much better due to the nerfing of rending AND their CC power against infantry is also nerfed because they dont get any form of Frag Grenade unless they're a Carnifex - which is initiative 1 anyway (face slap).

The redeeming qualities of the dex Ive found are:

Tyranid Prime,
Toxin Sac Genestealers,
Adrenal Warriors with Claws,
Gargoyles with adrenal glands

There might be a competitive list in there somewhere that has game against IG or space marines

Those are all very strong. I would add dual Bonesword Warriors and Tervigons to the list, and definitely Hive Guard.

The problem is, almost none of those can do jack about a bunch of dude in dedicated transports shooting. Only Hiveguard can touch them at range, and if you can't break open the transports from range, then your Primes/Warriors/Gargs/Stealers get to run in, blow up dedicated transports, and then get gunned down. Stealers are bolter fodder, Gargs even more so, and Warriors are not overly hard to clean up, particularly if the squad whose ride you just wrecked has a PFist.

It was frustrating with my Daemons when I kept running into situations where I could outplay my opponent and generally have a stronger list, but would just lose to a pair of Landraiders. Well, it's much more frustrating when I lose to Chimeras and Razorbacks. And even more so losing to vehicles so far away and so shooty I can't even try to wreck them. Very lame.

Shep wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Since semi-mech gunlines are better, that might not be quite what you're looking for. Besides, autocannons are pretty bad against the 'Nids, unless you bring Harpies or have Hive Guard out of cover for some reason.

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

Ouch. Is it possible to hide them behind Tfexes? I don't know what your TFex conversions are like, but it seems like it might be possible to make one big enough that Hive Guard could grab total concealment and force the IG to burn all those autocannon shots on 2+ armor (and perhaps FNP) instead of 4+ cover with negative rerolls. As long as the TFexes don't bite it to AP1/2, it seems like you'd be able to tank a hell of a lot of firepower, especially with Regeneration-- if the opponent has enough las, though, they might be able to burn right through the TFex and get to the Hive Guard. This also depends on whether you go the Venomthrope route or not, of course. 3 Vendettas get almost enough hits and wounds to drop a TFex in one turn if you don't have cover (5.6 wounding hits on average, random other fire can probably make up the difference), so the Venomthropes might be important here-- of course, the TFex would have to screen them too, or the enemy just fires something over for ID goodness.

Overall, I've been skeptical of Hive Guard since the initial rumors didn't pan out, but they seem to be the only real way to get truly reliable shooting power out of the Elites slot-- Zoanthropes have to take Psychic tests (read: get shut down half the time by Wolves and almost half by psyhoods unless you burn a slot on Death Leaper), generally have to reserve and suicide-pod in, die very easily to CC, and are worse than meltaguns anyway.

Problem with the Venomthropes trying to protect stuff from IG is that I can't imagine T-fex tall enough to screen a Venomthrope from a Vendetta...things are so high up.

Give the Hive Guard a shot. They are one of the few things that really shine in there. Shame they're not 36" range, though that would get a lot of cheese calls. I just really wish they could drop pod. Not for a suicide strike, just for nestling themselves somewhere in/behind cover but in effective range of what needs shooting. Because with a 4+ they need cover, and then they get limited by how fast they can advance and where they can deploy effectively, and the 24" range starts keeping them away from juicy targets sometimes.

I want to try this at 2000 points:

2 Primes with Deathspitter and Swords
60 Genestealers with Adrenal Glands
60 Hormagaunts
9 Hive Guard


Typically the guants would screen and the stealers would deliver the kill cut - against AV14, I reverse it, sacrificing stealers and then letting the Gaunts chew up the insides.

The Primes escort the Guard and are centrally located in the Swarm.