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apwill4765 wrote:

Look at the sequence again, I have placed them in order from first to last for your convenience. The model's final placement is not determined until after scatter is rolled. The rest works itself out.


EDIT: Also, impassable terrain (i.e. enemy models) are on the table. Or aren't they?

Deep strike sequence per RaW, pg 95:
"First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table...."
That's before scatter dice are rolled or anything else. So yeah, I get the sequence.

I don't classify models as terrain except where movement is concerned as that's spelled out in the book so in my mind terrain is part of the table; however, using logic, one may come to the conclusion that since models move, they're not part of the table.

Makes me long for the old days in fantasy when there was that one spell that let you drop a piece of terrain on an enemy unit; now THAT was fun!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:What is terrain?
Is it allowed to include paint, for example?
Is it not part of the gaming surface that is defined?

Way to have fun with it!

We both know what they mean when they talk about the table and my models go home with me so they're not part of the table.

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Okay so step one you place the MAwloc.

Already at step one there is a problem, since you are placing him. The two rules even use the same word "place".

You then tell us in point 3, that despite having already instructed us to place the model, that we have not placed it yet. This is quite overtly self-contradictory, and must be rejected.

When is anywhere not anywhere? When conditions/rules exist that limit the scope of anywhere which is listed in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook. The very same section that deep strike happens to take place.

Just for the record, LOS does affect close combat. LOS would dictate if you could shoot said unit you wish to charge and since there are rules that you can only assault that which you shoot, the unit you wish to assault would have also had to been in your LOS if you had shot at them.

Look, rules interacting with other rules.

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Okay so step one you place the MAwloc.

Already at step one there is a problem, since you are placing him. The two rules even use the same word "place".

You then tell us in point 3, that despite having already instructed us to place the model, that we have not placed it yet. This is quite overtly self-contradictory, and must be rejected.

No.... the model's final location is not determined until after scatter, at which point you roll on the mishap table. The initial placement is allowed "ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE".

Anywhere, means, anywhere

Dracos wrote:Okay so step one you place the MAwloc.

Already at step one there is a problem, since you are placing him. The two rules even use the same word "place".

But since terrain is disallowed, so is paint, flock, debris, felt, or anything that is not the table.

There is a problem with THIS reading.
Anywhere during DS = more specific than impassible terrain during placement.

apwill4765 wrote:

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Okay so step one you place the MAwloc.

Already at step one there is a problem, since you are placing him. The two rules even use the same word "place".

You then tell us in point 3, that despite having already instructed us to place the model, that we have not placed it yet. This is quite overtly self-contradictory, and must be rejected.

No.... the model's final location is not determined until after scatter, at which point you roll on the mishap table. The initial placement is allowed "ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE".

Anywhere, means, anywhere

Except on another model or within 1" of a model.

Brother Ramses wrote:When is anywhere not anywhere? When conditions/rules exist that limit the scope of anywhere which is listed in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook. The very same section that deep strike happens to take place.

Just for the record, LOS does affect close combat. LOS would dictate if you could shoot said unit you wish to charge and since there are rules that you can only assault that which you shoot, the unit you wish to assault would have also had to been in your LOS if you had shot at them.

Look, rules interacting with other rules.

That's a joke right? So, units without ranged weapons can never assault? Good to know, pesky- genestealers. You don't need LOS for assault, and assault is not affected AT ALL by LOS. As you said, SHOOTING is affected by line of sight.

And no, the scope is limited earlier and specifically discarded by deepstriking rules later on! the doesn't say "anywhere you can normally move". It says anywhere, and there's just no way around that.

Brother Ramses wrote:When is anywhere not anywhere? When conditions/rules exist that limit the scope of anywhere which is listed in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook. The very same section that deep strike happens to take place.

Just for the record, LOS does affect close combat. LOS would dictate if you could shoot said unit you wish to charge and since there are rules that you can only assault that which you shoot, the unit you wish to assault would have also had to been in your LOS if you had shot at them.

Look, rules interacting with other rules.

Actually that's only IF you shoot at them; you don't have to shoot to assault; however if the unit does shoot, and wants to assault, it must assault the unit it shot at.

I didn't see anything that says you have to have LOS to assault...though that would make sense because how could you assault something you can't see?

Brother Ramses wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Okay so step one you place the MAwloc.

Already at step one there is a problem, since you are placing him. The two rules even use the same word "place".

You then tell us in point 3, that despite having already instructed us to place the model, that we have not placed it yet. This is quite overtly self-contradictory, and must be rejected.

No.... the model's final location is not determined until after scatter, at which point you roll on the mishap table. The initial placement is allowed "ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE".

Anywhere, means, anywhere

Except on another model or within 1" of a model.

Nope, sorry. It doesn't say that. It says "anywhere", and then "on the table", and then a period. I know you want it to really bad, but it doesn't.

apwill4765 wrote:

Anywhere, means, anywhere

Thanks for setting this up for me.... and on the table means, on the table...

I owe you 1 beer.

Edit, there really needs to be a beer smiley.... uhhhh, this is the closest thing I could find.

I am not saying that a unit that can't shoot can't assault or that a unit has to shoot to assault. I was only pointing out that rules in different sections interact unlike Apwill who thinks section rules are irrelevant to other rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:I am not saying that a unit that can't shoot can't assault or that a unit has to shoot to assault. I was only pointing out that rules in different sections interact unlike Apwill who thinks section rules are irrelevant to other rules.

How do they interact? The assault section says "units may only assault units that they shot at" (paraphrased). This is stated in the assault section, making it relevant to assaults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Anywhere, means, anywhere

Thanks for setting this up for me.... and on the table means, on the table...

I owe you 1 beer.

Edit, there really needs to be a beer smiley.... uhhhh, this is the closest thing I could find.

A trophy will do =D as I'm pretty sure this will be FAQ'ed my way. But yea, your models are on the table aren't they?

apwill4765 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Okay so step one you place the MAwloc.

Already at step one there is a problem, since you are placing him. The two rules even use the same word "place".

You then tell us in point 3, that despite having already instructed us to place the model, that we have not placed it yet. This is quite overtly self-contradictory, and must be rejected.

No.... the model's final location is not determined until after scatter, at which point you roll on the mishap table. The initial placement is allowed "ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE".

Anywhere, means, anywhere

Except on another model or within 1" of a model.

Nope, sorry. It doesn't say that. It says "anywhere", and then "on the table", and then a period. I know you want it to really bad, but it doesn't.

How about following the path of the rule instead of bogging down on the Deep Strike section.

1. Deep Strike section tells you to follow Reserve Rules to determine arrival of deep striking units.
2. Reserves rule tells you how to deep strike and when, during the Movement phase.
3. Movement phase instructs you that you cannot move to touch an enemy model or move within 1" of them unless it is the Assault phase.

That sequence is from the book, not me just blowing smoke here. As much as you want to stop at ANYWHERE in the Deep Strike section, you still have to continue to the Reserves rule and then the Movement phase which specifically defines ANYWHERE.

apwill4765 wrote:

A trophy will do =D as I'm pretty sure this will be FAQ'ed my way. But yea, your models are on the table aren't they?

There's always two sides to every discussion and both are equally valid until one is proven wrong.

My model is on the table; however, if you place your model on mine, your model is not sharing the table space, it's sitting on my model. That's like saying that me standing next to Bill Gates makes me a rich guy (I wish).

Anywho, it's been fun, folks; I'm off ta bed. Have a good evening.

I don't feel like arguing it out here, but I will say that at my stores, and at the tournaments I run, I do not allow deepstriking units to be placed on top of impassable terrain, and count models as impassable. So Mawlocs cannot be placed on top of enemy units.

Brother Ramses wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Okay so step one you place the MAwloc.

Already at step one there is a problem, since you are placing him. The two rules even use the same word "place".

You then tell us in point 3, that despite having already instructed us to place the model, that we have not placed it yet. This is quite overtly self-contradictory, and must be rejected.

No.... the model's final location is not determined until after scatter, at which point you roll on the mishap table. The initial placement is allowed "ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE".

Anywhere, means, anywhere

Except on another model or within 1" of a model.

Nope, sorry. It doesn't say that. It says "anywhere", and then "on the table", and then a period. I know you want it to really bad, but it doesn't.

How about following the path of the rule instead of bogging down on the Deep Strike section.

1. Deep Strike section tells you to follow Reserve Rules to determine arrival of deep striking units.
2. Reserves rule tells you how to deep strike and when, during the Movement phase.
3. Movement phase instructs you that you cannot move to touch an enemy model or move within 1" of them unless it is the Assault phase.

That sequence is from the book, not me just blowing smoke here. As much as you want to stop at ANYWHERE in the Deep Strike section, you still have to continue to the Reserves rule and then the Movement phase which specifically defines ANYWHERE.

Yea, why get bogged down by the deepstrike section of the rules when we are talking about deepstriking? /boggle.

The deepstrike rules say refer to reserve rules for determining the ARRIVAL of these units. This only applies to rolling for whether they come in on a certain term (4+ turn 2, 3+ turn 3 etc). After that, you follow the deepstrike rules for deepstriking. Crazy thought, I know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

A trophy will do =D as I'm pretty sure this will be FAQ'ed my way. But yea, your models are on the table aren't they?

There's always two sides to every discussion and both are equally valid until one is proven wrong.

My model is on the table; however, if you place your model on mine, your model is not sharing the table space, it's sitting on my model. That's like saying that me standing next to Bill Gates makes me a rich guy (I wish).

Anywho, it's been fun, folks; I'm off ta bed. Have a good evening.

So if your models are on the bottom floor of ruins, and my models deepstrike on the next floor up, directly above, my models aren't on the table? odd..

mikhaila wrote:I don't feel like arguing it out here, but I will say that at my stores, and at the tournaments I run, I do not allow deepstriking units to be placed on top of impassable terrain, and count models as impassable. So Mawlocs cannot be placed on top of enemy units.

good show. I believe raw agrees with you. I have not seen a single cogent reason to dismiss the rule found on p.14.

mikhaila wrote:I don't feel like arguing it out here, but I will say that at my stores, and at the tournaments I run, I do not allow deepstriking units to be placed on top of impassable terrain, and count models as impassable. So Mawlocs cannot be placed on top of enemy units.

Why do the Mawlocs even have this rule then? Just in case they accidentally deepstrike onto a unit? That is the silliest thing I've ever heard of, and it would happen so infrequently that the mawloc is worthless once he gets on the table. Just take a trygon for the 95/100 times he WONT land enemy units.

When someone says terrain is not "on the table" I wonder where their models move.

apwill4765 wrote:

So if your models are on the bottom floor of ruins, and my models deepstrike on the next floor up, directly above, my models aren't on the table? odd..

You know you can't deep strike into a building and you can only deep strike onto the ground floor of ruins (page 95).

Now quit sucking me back into the discussion; the wife's making exaggerated yawning noises signaling my 2nd bedtime warning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

apwill4765 wrote:

mikhaila wrote:I don't feel like arguing it out here, but I will say that at my stores, and at the tournaments I run, I do not allow deepstriking units to be placed on top of impassable terrain, and count models as impassable. So Mawlocs cannot be placed on top of enemy units.

Why do the Mawlocs even have this rule then? Just in case they accidentally deepstrike onto a unit? That is the silliest thing I've ever heard of, and it would happen so infrequently that the mawloc is worthless once he gets on the table. Just take a trygon for the 95/100 times he WONT land enemy units.

Place it next to a unit, you've still got a 1 in 6 chance for a "hit" and odds are favorable at hitting the unit anyway.

agnosto wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

So if your models are on the bottom floor of ruins, and my models deepstrike on the next floor up, directly above, my models aren't on the table? odd..

You know you can't deep strike into a building and you can only deep strike onto the ground floor of ruins (page 95).

Now quit sucking me back into the discussion; the wife's making exaggerated yawning noises signaling my 2nd bedtime warning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

apwill4765 wrote:

mikhaila wrote:I don't feel like arguing it out here, but I will say that at my stores, and at the tournaments I run, I do not allow deepstriking units to be placed on top of impassable terrain, and count models as impassable. So Mawlocs cannot be placed on top of enemy units.

Why do the Mawlocs even have this rule then? Just in case they accidentally deepstrike onto a unit? That is the silliest thing I've ever heard of, and it would happen so infrequently that the mawloc is worthless once he gets on the table. Just take a trygon for the 95/100 times he WONT land enemy units.

Place it next to a unit, you've still got a 1 in 6 chance for a "hit" and odds are favorable at hitting the unit anyway.

EDIT: whoah, something really screwed up this post.

kirsanth wrote:When someone says terrain is not "on the table" I wonder where their models move.

It's an easy use of logic to arrive at the conclusion of terrain being part of the table and models being treated as terrain. Who said terrain is not on the table? I said that puting your model on my model does not mean that your model is on the table as my model is not a piece of terrain it's just treated as terrain in reference to movement.

Now, if I had a unit that was a roving hillock or something we'd have to talk about it.

apwill4765 wrote:Please see my above argument. What does ANYWHERE mean insaniak? That is specifically where the deepstrike rules say a model may be placed.

We both know what 'anywhere' means.

The problem is, as I pointed out before, that there are two conflicting rules... which forces you to obey them both.

Does it have to say "anywhere, including clear, difficult, dangerous, and impassable"?

No... but it does need to specifically mention impassable terrain in order to over-ride the pre-existing rule forbidding placement into it.


If you had an open table, with no scenery on it, you would just follow the Deep Strike rules by themselves. In other words, you would place your model anywhere on the table.

Because different terrain types have different rules, we are forced to modify the Deep Strike rule when those terrain types are brought into play.

So the Deep Strike rule says that the model can be placed anywhere. However, if you attempt to place the model into Impassable terrain, any rule regarding placing models in impassable terrain automatically kicks in... because the situation currently in progress specifically involves impassable terrain.

The rule applying to that specific piece of terrain takes precedence over a rule applying to the entire board. Because it is more specific, and because it doesn't specifically over-ride the terrain rule. The best it can do without specifically over-riding the other rule is exist in tandem with it... and that means you have to follow them both.

And when you have to follow two rules, with one that allows something and one that denies that same thing, the only way to break neither is to not do that particular thing. In this case, that means no Deep Striking into impassable terrain.


To be honest, I think I've explained this about as many different ways as I can, so I'm going to bow out at this point. You are, of course, still welcome to disagree, but I see no way of getting around the impassable terrain rule in this particular instance.

Actually, the Mawloc doesn't have to scatter at all if you sneak in a Lictor/Lictor Brood/Deathleaper with Pheromone Trail within 6" from your intended target

Lictors start in reserve but can be placed anywhere on the battlefield so long as they are 1" away from an enemy model. They cannot use the positioning within 6" in the turn they arrive, but every turn after that. So technically as long as the Lictor is alive, the Mawloc can use Burrow to repeat a targetted Terror From the Deep attack in two to four turns if the game or the Lictor last that long.

I know this doesn't address the issue being discussed directly, but it's a point to consider in the discussion IMHO.

Cheers!

insaniak wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:Please see my above argument. What does ANYWHERE mean insaniak? That is specifically where the deepstrike rules say a model may be placed.

We both know what 'anywhere' means.

The problem is, as I pointed out before, that there are two conflicting rules... which forces you to obey them both.

Does it have to say "anywhere, including clear, difficult, dangerous, and impassable"?

No... but it does need to specifically mention impassable terrain in order to over-ride the pre-existing rule forbidding placement into it.


If you had an open table, with no scenery on it, you would just follow the Deep Strike rules by themselves. In other words, you would place your model anywhere on the table.

Because different terrain types have different rules, we are forced to modify the Deep Strike rule when those terrain types are brought into play.

So the Deep Strike rule says that the model can be placed anywhere. However, if you attempt to place the model into Impassable terrain, any rule regarding placing models in impassable terrain automatically kicks in... because the situation currently in progress specifically involves impassable terrain.

The rule applying to that specific piece of terrain takes precedence over a rule applying to the entire board. Because it is more specific, and because it doesn't specifically over-ride the terrain rule. The best it can do without specifically over-riding the other rule is exist in tandem with it... and that means you have to follow them both.

And when you have to follow two rules, with one that allows something and one that denies that same thing, the only way to break neither is to not do that particular thing. In this case, that means no Deep Striking into impassable terrain.


To be honest, I think I've explained this about as many different ways as I can, so I'm going to bow out at this point. You are, of course, still welcome to disagree, but I see no way of getting around the impassable terrain rule in this particular instance.

Yea, I'm done arguing too. But the rule for placing in impassable terrain during DEEPSTRIKE specifically references DEEPSTRIKE rules, not the other way around. you essentially said specific overrides general, and then used a general rule to override a specific one. Anywhere is very clear.

You would be right if it said "place the unit on the table". Then it would have to follow placement rules for impassable terrain. But it SPECIFICALLY says that the unit may be placed "anywhere", which overrides the more general placement rules.

OK, now I'm done arguing lol.

Specific overrides general anywhere is a general term, not in impassible terrain is a specific term. You are looking at where you can place the model so the when of at all times compared to when DSing is irrelevant it is the words concerning where that matter.

This has been covered. By RaW you can place your model within 1" of the enemy (no rule forbidding) but not on top of them or in any impassible terrain. This is prohibited by the rule on pg 14 and not overriden by a more specific rule in this instance.

If I was asked what the actual rules are then it is obvious you can place the Mawloc where ever you want including on top of that unit of Terminators and that is certainly how I'd play it and I imagine will be the most common ruling in any Tournaments.

FlingitNow wrote:Specific overrides general anywhere is a general term, not in impassible terrain is a specific term. You are looking at where you can place the model so the when of at all times compared to when DSing is irrelevant it is the words concerning where that matter.

This has been covered. By RaW you can place your model within 1" of the enemy (no rule forbidding) but not on top of them or in any impassible terrain. This is prohibited by the rule on pg 14 and not overriden by a more specific rule in this instance.

If I was asked what the actual rules are then it is obvious you can place the Mawloc where ever you want including on top of that unit of Terminators and that is certainly how I'd play it and I imagine will be the most common ruling in any Tournaments.

You are wrong. By R.A.W. the model can be placed anywhere. Your argument is fine, but it isn't R.A.W. Stop dragging me back in and wait for the FAQ.

apwill4765 wrote:Stop dragging me back in and wait for the FAQ.

Gwar! wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:Stop dragging me back in and wait for the FAQ.

Ooop, sorry, I mean, wait for GW to confirm GWAR!'s FAQ

"model can be placed anywhere" - general rule stating anywhere is OK

"model may not be placed in impassable terrain" - specific rule stating you may not do something.

"Anywhere" cannot override the specific prohibition, unless it mentions it. You CANNOT, RAW, place on top of another model during DS.

If you want to know what specific means, look at the Stubborn USR, or at the debates on WBB vs SA - WBB is not more specific than SA, even though WBB is specific to one race and SA applies to all races.