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Archimus I really enjoyed your posts!

Although, the nids do take more than biomass, in the form of the entire atmosphere (usuable or not) and anything on the ground that can be moved by normal means (including presumably numerous elements/compounds both useless and potentially dangerous). Surely they waste what they dont need, but how much energy is wasted by not cracking open a planet (which they can do, but at an unknown expense) to suck out the molten chewy core of presumably iron? The earths core contains plenty of energy, but its not usable I would think other than as a heat source.

And yeah, I agree the 'nids evolved a bit too big to be ultimately successful in the LONG run, as they dont practice sustainable methods and are stuck as hunter/gathers instead of farmers.

However the C'tan, supposed masters of the physical world, have the same flaw. They eat stars to survive. In the LONG run, they will run out of stars to sustain themselves. Both the C'tan and the 'nids suffer from the same LONG LONG term flaw. However, the same can be said for any species, thanks to entropy. Given enough time, supposedly any system will lose too much energy. The only difference between them is the speed and efficiency of the system. I would rate C'tan and Nids as very fast, but less efficient systems. Humans and other 'regular' creatures I would rate as slow but more efficient. Orks, as the only creature with built in population control, are probably the most efficient creatures in the galaxy, though they are not very quick.

The only other factor in all of this is the Warp. I dont know enough about the fluff if the warp is infinite, or depends on real world emotions to sustain itself. If, after all life in the entire universe was extinguished, would intelligent beings still thrive in the warp? Anyone know the hard info on the Long, LONG term stability of the warp beings (not just the chaos gods)?

Actually, upon mention of the warp, I had a thought:

Tyranid DO interact with the warp, yes? If so, then any calculations that deal with time in transit are going to be inherantly flawed, as time in transit will be fluid and inconsistant. Furthermore, the bugs have rippers: the Tyranid equivelent to the hive's stomach. Tyranids don't have to break down everything, they just have to break down the rippers, the RIPPERS have to break down the other bugs, and if the rippers, themselves, are moderately squishy, it shouldn't take quite so much energy.

Are tyranids inefficient? Any tertiary predator is. Are they more inefficient than they would need to be for an interstellar, nomadic insect colony? Not so much...

As for 'nids being as efficient as a nomadic insect colony, im not sure. The same species of insect will fight itself as it reproduces and branches out its colonies, and only the strongest colonies will survive, which serves to keep the population down and at the same time ensure the survival of the fittest.

However, as far as I know, the various nid fleets dont compete with each other, straight out killing weak hive fleets to keep the overall population down--they instead reproduce with reckless abandon. Hence, nids dont have a built in population control like most insects do, making them less efficient for long term survival but much faster at short term survival. An effective tradeoff if you ask me, considering exactly how long it takes things to happen on a galactic scale.

I love this thread! Fluff moves directly on to drugs and fanfiction, then a little rage, then biology!

The thing is, what happens to the planets after the Nids have gone through, do they have any bacteria or anything that can restart the planetary eco-system, could one of the other races revive the planet (Panspermia)? Or is it some weird thing where the barren earth still has nutrients under the soil (I don't think the nids would eat the planet down to the mantel)? Or is it just some barren planet doomed to being an empty rock forever?

If they can be replenished then the NIds wouldn't just be eating the entire galaxy and would insted be going aound and around eating and re-eating every planet.

just a thought.

Also I noticed you guys are bringing up the case of Calgar punching an Avatar. But what about the part where he fights an entire Waaagh single handedly for a day and night? That seems way more farfetched than a 1 on 1 with an Avatar. The whole coolness factor of things like this are destroyed for me because they have a serious case of "Fanboyism"

All planets start out as balls of bare rock (well, molten at the beginning.) In the same way that life evolved on Earth, it can re-evolve on a planet which has been scoured by the Tyranids. It would take billions of years though.

However, it seems unlikely that the Tyranids would scour a planet of all life. The effort required to scavenge every atom of atmosphere, water and bacteria is surely counter-productive. Unless you assume the Tyranids are a bio-engineered weapon which is designed to do that.

The other question is why the Tyranids behave the way they do if they are intelligent. Assuming they are intelligent and can control their own evolution by genetic engineering, what compulsion could have been designed into them which they are unable to design out again.

Amplified wrote:
A couple of borrowing Trygons destroyed 600 Defilers in a couple of hours?! They disrupted and isolated a Great Company of the most single most experienced, disciplined, cohesive Chaos Legion, FAMED for their speciality at siege warfare, by BURROWING A COUPLE OF TRYGONS INTO THEIR FORTRESSES?! WHICH DIDN'T THEN IMMEDIATELY DIE FROM BEING CHARGED BY 600 DEFILERS WHO GET 3200 ATTACKS ON THE CHARGE?!?!?!

'Iron within. Iron without'.
''Nids below!'
'D'oh!'

Snikkyd wrote:

Also I noticed you guys are bringing up the case of Calgar punching an Avatar. But what about the part where he fights an entire Waaagh single handedly for a day and night? That seems way more farfetched than a 1 on 1 with an Avatar. The whole coolness factor of things like this are destroyed for me because they have a serious case of "Fanboyism"

I dunno, I kinda figure it goes like this;

1. If there's something named for any race anywhere, somewhere there is a Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine that is more badass than it.

2. That being said, there's only so many Space Marines.

So yeah, Calgar is very nearly the most uber fighter in the universe, and he can stand off a Waagh! (in a small space, it should b enoted) for a day and a night, by himself. What he CAN'T do is take on all over the other eighteen Waaghs that are going on that day in other places. So I'm willing to give the Space Marines "best individual fighters" props, fluffwise; there's only a million or so of them, if they weren't the hardest bastards in the galaxy the Imperium would be gone by now.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:

Also I noticed you guys are bringing up the case of Calgar punching an Avatar. But what about the part where he fights an entire Waaagh single handedly for a day and night? That seems way more farfetched than a 1 on 1 with an Avatar. The whole coolness factor of things like this are destroyed for me because they have a serious case of "Fanboyism"

I dunno, I kinda figure it goes like this;

1. If there's something named for any race anywhere, somewhere there is a Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine that is more badass than it.

2. That being said, there's only so many Space Marines.

So yeah, Calgar is very nearly the most uber fighter in the universe, and he can stand off a Waagh! (in a small space, it should b enoted) for a day and a night, by himself. What he CAN'T do is take on all over the other eighteen Waaghs that are going on that day in other places. So I'm willing to give the Space Marines "best individual fighters" props, fluffwise; there's only a million or so of them, if they weren't the hardest bastards in the galaxy the Imperium would be gone by now.

Well maybe he could, since he's supposed to be the most powerful SM, but you'd think he'd be too slow, with power fists and all.

I agree though, the SM are super powerful but theres only 1 million of them, so it doesn't really matter, it evens out.

In terms of why tyranids behave the way they do, there have been references to a single malign intellect behind the hive mind. Some postulated the 4th C'tan, the trickster I believe he is called. He was the Ctan that got Ctan to start eating each other. The Nids could be his pet project.

Or, it could be a being similar to the emperor of this galaxy, a being so psychically powerful he was able to thrall his children the tyranids. This leads to a shared vision of a great crusade to wipe out all other threatening life forms, to establish dominance of one race. The emperor delved into genetic engineering, perhaps the intellect behind the hive mind is an evolved emperor level being with the same ideas. The real difference between this potential tyranid emperor and the imperial emperor is that the tyranid emperor only doles out sentience to very few of his creatures, namely beings like hive tyrants. The tyranids emperor also doesnt stop at wiping out opposing sentient life, it nips all potential life in the bud by leaving lush planets looking like our moon. Under this theory, the tyranid emperor, after conquering the universe, would cast off the now useless tyranid assault forces (who are already used to jumping in a disolving pool upon command), and presumably consolidate his winnings.

I like your thinking.

The only reason it doesn't talk about them owning Chaos and Necrons is because it would never happen.

Chaos- just as elusive and threatening as the nids IMO. Shadow in the Warp woujld make it harder for the psykers, but that isn't the only thing they've got.

Necrons- nids probably don't even know they exist because they spend eternity sleeping, and they really aren't even alive so the nids can't really detect them very well.

and use all the genetic code from all the Noming to create a new race of sentient beings where there is no war or strife

wait a minute

Thats heresy!

crazykiwi wrote:and use all the genetic code from all the Noming to create a new race of sentient beings where there is no war or strife

wait a minute

Thats heresy!

Exactly, brother. Now, these two kind gentlemen would like you to follow them. Their master would like to have a word with you...

I've always found the nid fluff tiresome. Evolution doesn't work the way they describe it at all. And eating genetic code from other organisms? Argh. Makes so little sense.

Da Boss wrote:I've always found the nid fluff tiresome. Evolution doesn't work the way they describe it at all.

Never play Spore.

My computer wouldn't run it, even if I wanted to .

DevianID wrote:As for 'nids being as efficient as a nomadic insect colony, im not sure. The same species of insect will fight itself as it reproduces and branches out its colonies, and only the strongest colonies will survive, which serves to keep the population down and at the same time ensure the survival of the fittest.

However, as far as I know, the various nid fleets dont compete with each other, straight out killing weak hive fleets to keep the overall population down--they instead reproduce with reckless abandon. Hence, nids dont have a built in population control like most insects do, making them less efficient for long term survival but much faster at short term survival. An effective tradeoff if you ask me, considering exactly how long it takes things to happen on a galactic scale.

There is fluff showing 'nid hive fleets fighting. The winner eats the loser, and then there is one big, double killy hive fleet.

Why are you talking about the evolution of Nids.

Isn't it a little OT? Just wondering.

Snikkyd wrote:Why are you talking about the evolution of Nids.

Isn't it a little OT? Just wondering.

No...

Da Boss wrote:I've always found the nid fluff tiresome. Evolution doesn't work the way they describe it at all. And eating genetic code from other organisms? Argh. Makes so little sense.

dude this is warhammer 40K, the game that never lets realism or practicality get in the way of being GRIMDARK and over the top. Think about it. This is a universe where humans fly spaceships through what is essentially Catholic Hell filled with EVIL SPESS DEMONS to fight magical space elves and fungal Incredible Hulk clones who also happen to be soccer hooligans. It doesnt have to be realistic, or make sense. Think about it from GW's perspective: what is more grimdark, Tyranids who behave like normal creatures and follow normal laws of evolution, or BIO-ENGINEERED SUPER EVOLVED MONSTROSITIES THAT OMNOMNOM ENTIRE PLANETS, LEAVING ONLY GRIMDARKNESS IN THEIR WAKE?

exactly.

Corvus wrote:
...and fungal Incredible Hulk clones who also happen to be soccer hooligans.... or BIO-ENGINEERED SUPER EVOLVED MONSTROSITIES THAT OMNOMNOM ENTIRE PLANETS, LEAVING ONLY GRIMDARKNESS IN THEIR WAKE?

I thank thee, Sir, for having helped me regain D4 Sanity Points.

Da Boss wrote:My computer wouldn't run it, even if I wanted to .

That is epic said. Not that you can't play spore (That game is dreadful, and I consider it offensive for its portrayal of evolution), but you need yourself a competent machine.

EDIT: I mean, does that even run a web browser? My netbook can run spore! (barely)

A-P wrote:

Corvus wrote:
...and fungal Incredible Hulk clones who also happen to be soccer hooligans.... or BIO-ENGINEERED SUPER EVOLVED MONSTROSITIES THAT OMNOMNOM ENTIRE PLANETS, LEAVING ONLY GRIMDARKNESS IN THEIR WAKE?

I thank thee, Sir, for having helped me regain D4 Sanity Points.

I do what I can

Da Boss wrote:I've always found the nid fluff tiresome. Evolution doesn't work the way they describe it at all. And eating genetic code from other organisms? Argh. Makes so little sense.

They would evolve up to a point were they could gain an understanding of Genetic modification, similar to us, but if they already had this communistic hive mind society, then they could pin point the specific genes for what they want (through testing). This would allow them to successfully create norn queens or other creatures that can correctly ustilize the specific genes and create faster hormagaunts or better armoured carnifexes. The problem is, how did they develop the hive mind control? that is what we have to know.

dossome wrote:

Da Boss wrote:I've always found the nid fluff tiresome. Evolution doesn't work the way they describe it at all. And eating genetic code from other organisms? Argh. Makes so little sense.

They would evolve up to a point were they could gain an understanding of Genetic modification, similar to us, but if they already had this communistic hive mind society, then they could pin point the specific genes for what they want (through testing). This would allow them to successfully create norn queens or other creatures that can correctly ustilize the specific genes and create faster hormagaunts or better armoured carnifexes. The problem is, how did they develop the hive mind control? that is what we have to know.

A wizard did it.

In all seriousness, the hive mind exists in ant colonies and such, so structures like that can clearly evolve naturally. The psychic nonsense and the warp and all that just make it more efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:And eating genetic code from other organisms? Argh. Makes so little sense.

I'm fairly certain that I've heard something about that happening in nature too. And, in fact,there ARE animals that manipulate their own genetic code.

Nature is totally badass.

Yes, it can be done. We do it all the time in labs. Taking a gene from the DNA of an underwater specie of bacteria to create a new race of crops that`s resistant to cold and pressure is old stuff. Granted, we dont do it with our stomach, but its not undoable for an organism to develop tools to do the same biologically.

Bacteria exchange genetic material. Plants can exchange genetic material. There was a recent report of some creature, a sea slug or something, which could eat plant chromosomes and grow its own chlorophyll. I don't remember the exact details.

From a science viewpoint the question is why Tyranids, which are from a different galaxy, would have genetic material in the form of DNA or RNA which would be compatible with our galaxy's creatures.

Anyway, the Tyranids clearly do have a hive mind in the sense of a directing intelligence. Ants are not intelligent, they just are able to direct the behaviour of the colony as a whole, which is a bit different.

I'm sticking with my bio terror weapon theory.

It seems reasonable.