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Sanctjud wrote:
So the icon system, double specials, +1 LD for champ, uber grit doesn't make them different enough?

Icons are close - they let you set your guys up for different roles more easily, but at another cost. +1 Ld for champ - realistically is not a big deal. If you're losing combats, you're still rolling against penalties. If you're taking tests from shooting, you're getting a 1/9th better chance - but you don't have ATSKNF to recover from it as well either. Uber-grit? I don't know that one.. Unless that's what you're calling everyone having a BP/CCW and Bolter. But that (And the ability to take 2 specials) - okay, so compare to the cost for Grey Hunters instead of SM, and you're still over-priced.

But the point about game design still stands. If it's the icon system that is important in making C:CSM work, then you should be required to take one, not allowed to take one. Being allowed to take one also implies that I'm allowed to not take one. And, if I choose not to take one, my list should still be viable based on the points I spent on it. That is the clearly stated design goal.

You don't need to take Icons. There's a reason why the Icon of Chaos Glory is the preferred Icon, because it's the cheapest - if you need an Icon as a Deep Strike beacon, and a squad bonus, then that Icon does the job. Otherwise, unless you're making up for specific deficiencies, Chaos Space Marines get along fine without them.

Redbeard:

Im still not sure i understand your argument. Are you implying that since Chaos Space Marines are still technically space marines they should have the exact same point costs as Codex: Space Marines? If so how does that make sense. And it seems your forgetting every other space marine chapter that has different point costs. Are you telling me Blood Angles, Space Wolves, Black Templars and all of the other chapters should have the exact same options and points? Then things really become just different colored marines and we really dont need anything except 1 codex.

And your argument says that since they are both marines they should be able to do the same job at the same price. Yet i cant say i have ever seen an all CC based Codex: Space Marine army. The reason a CSM Lascannon in a squad costs 20 points as opposed to the 10 for SM is because they are different. Chaos is strong in CC and they like CC, thats why they were given Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CC Weapon for 15 points. By comparison Codex: Space Marines lack this option but instead are given combat squads and ATSKNF. No where does it ever say that you cannot build CSM squads like Codex: SM tac squads. Its just going to cost more due to different benefits. Which only makes sense. Codex: Space Marines are THE Space Marines, chosen by the Emprah, they should get their gear cheaper.

Another point is that a Codex does have a general design in mind when it is made. I would like to see you argue that Tau are a legit CC army. Are you going to argue that since Tau cannot make a legit competitive CC army their codex is broken when they are obviously built for ranged fighitng? CSM are CC orientated, there is no doubt of this. Why then would the point costs be the same for ranged weaponry such as a lascannon?

The codex design is not flawed, its different. Not such a horrible thing.

mrwittwer wrote:Redbeard:

Im still not sure i understand your argument. Are you implying that since Chaos Space Marines are still technically space marines they should have the exact same point costs as Codex: Space Marines? If so how does that make sense. And it seems your forgetting every other space marine chapter that has different point costs. Are you telling me Blood Angles, Space Wolves, Black Templars and all of the other chapters should have the exact same options and points? Then things really become just different colored marines and we really dont need anything except 1 codex.

Not quite. There should definitely be differences, and those differences are where point costs should be different.

For example, consider a SM and a CSM. The SM gets ATSKNF and Combat Squads/Tactics. The CSM gets +1Ld and an extra CCW. Let's just assume that these things are worth the same points. You have two different forces, that will play differently, with the same price, and that's all good.

If the chaos squad can buy an icon that gives them a +stat for +points, this is still reasonable (assuming the prices on the +stat are right), and the forces get further apart, but cost different amounts, and we're still all good.

Compare this to a predator. One predator is as good as any other, right? But the SM predator destructor costs 15 points less. How is that reasonable? You say, "well, CSM shouldn't use predator destructors, that's not their thing" - BS. It's in the codex as an option, why shouldn't they use them? And why should they cost any different than the SM version?

Consider the assault marines/raptors thing. Same strengths and weaknesses as above, except that assault marines also have BP/CCW, so comparatively, a raptor and an assault marine are more similar than a space marine and a chaos space marine. The Marine still has combat squads and tactics, and ATSKNF, while the raptor still has +1LD. Well, if the extra CCW from the CSM/SM comparison was what made them even, then surely a raptor should cost less than an assault marine. Nope, they cost more.

Differences between codexes should be represented by what the army is allowed to take, what slots they're allowed to take them in, what stats and special rules they have. Not what the cost for identical (or near-identical) units is. You don't represent scarcity by overpricing something, you do it with 0-1 limits. You don't represent abundance by underpricing a unit, you do it by allowing to be a troop, or by making it 1+. That is good design. That means that when my friend and I decide to play a three-tank battle, he doesn't also end up with a land speeder.

Codex: Space Marines are THE Space Marines, chosen by the Emprah, they should get their gear cheaper.

This argument may be true in the fluff. It doesn't make for a good game though. Would it be a fair game if Marine players always got to add 100 points to whatever size game they were playing because they were chosen by the "Emprah"? The guiding principle behind points-based games is that you can make whatever army you want, within the constraints of what the army book allows, and play a fair game against any other army at that point cost. Comparing the most-similar units between CSM and SM, this is clearly not happening.

mrwittwer wrote:Redbeard:

Im still not sure i understand your argument. Are you implying that since Chaos Space Marines are still technically space marines they should have the exact same point costs as Codex: Space Marines?

No, I believe he's saying that the exact same unit in two army lists should have the same price. And if it doesn't have the same price, then it should have some sort of obvious advantage or disadvantage to explain the disparity.

And this strikes me as perfectly reasonable.

But they aren't identical equipment because of the available options (such as possession, havoc racks). You could of course say that that should be in the price of the options, which I agree with but they aren't identical .

I agree, everyone stop playing chaos space marines at tournaments. That way I can break mine out and start playing with them, it was embarrassing going to a tournament with my plague marines and seeing 5 other chaos marine armies in a 16 person tournament.

If anything a Chaos predator should be slightly cheaper because chaos has a higher opportunity cost for using its HS slots, as it does not have the capability to take decent long-range units in other slots like Codex marines do.

No, if they are identical on the tabletop, as taken, then they should have the same price. Options are covered in the cost of the option. If I don't take my options, why should I be paying points for the ability to have taken them?

Likewise, opportunity cost has nothing to do with what I field. If I put my army on the table, and my opponent puts the same models down, but using a different codex, our point costs should be the same. The fact that I could have taken oblits or defilers is irrelevant at that time - I didn't take them, and I still want a fair game against my opponent's army.

Redbeard wrote:No, if they are identical on the tabletop, as taken, then they should have the same price. Options are covered in the cost of the option. If I don't take my options, why should I be paying points for the ability to have taken them?

Likewise, opportunity cost has nothing to do with what I field. If I put my army on the table, and my opponent puts the same models down, but using a different codex, our point costs should be the same. The fact that I could have taken oblits or defilers is irrelevant at that time - I didn't take them, and I still want a fair game against my opponent's army.

I actually agree with you. I think that the fact that Chaos players (myself included) have to pay more points for the same gear, or the other option is to get things that are different but still over-costed, is one of the big reasons why the Chaos codex does not hold up well against good players with good lists.

But they aren't identical equipment because of the available options (such as possession, havoc racks). You could of course say that that should be in the price of the options, which I agree with but they aren't identical .

But identical CSM, Marine, and Space Wolf Predators do not cost the same, and thus CSM are at a disadvantage.

There was an assertion earlier that the overall army has to be taken in consideration because, for example, Chaos can do a better assault rush list than SM, therefore a more expensive Predator is not a big deal. That argument doesn't hold water with the introduction of the SW codex; SWs can also build a 40 Marine/3 Predator assault army cheaper, and more effectively than the CSM codex using Grey Hunters and Predators. Their lack of power fists in squads is made up for by flexibility in their force org, where Fast and Elite slots are more viable.

sourclams wrote:

But they aren't identical equipment because of the available options (such as possession, havoc racks). You could of course say that that should be in the price of the options, which I agree with but they aren't identical .

But identical CSM, Marine, and Space Wolf Predators do not cost the same, and thus CSM are at a disadvantage.

There was an assertion earlier that the overall army has to be taken in consideration because, for example, Chaos can do a better assault rush list than SM, therefore a more expensive Predator is not a big deal. That argument doesn't hold water with the introduction of the SW codex; SWs can also build a 40 Marine/3 Predator assault army cheaper, and more effectively than the CSM codex using Grey Hunters and Predators. Their lack of power fists in squads is made up for by flexibility in their force org, where Fast and Elite slots are more viable.

Chaos still has exclusive tools, such as a daemon prince, which have different roles. These tools change the army and therefore you cannot simply say Space Wolves > CSM. Considering I use almost "marine units" exclusively, if they were so similar I could easily count my army as Space Wolves. However, when push comes to shove, you realize there are a ton of minor differences that still end up making it a much different army.

Hmmm... however a Wolf Lord can be a decent DP analog, and although they are more expensive they're capable of far more destruction and can be more durable as well, and are not vulnerable to psychic defense.

Night Lords wrote:
Chaos still has exclusive tools, such as a daemon prince, which have different roles. These tools change the army and therefore you cannot simply say Space Wolves > CSM. Considering I use almost "marine units" exclusively, if they were so similar I could easily count my army as Space Wolves. However, when push comes to shove, you realize there are a ton of minor differences that still end up making it a much different army.

Are the exclusive tools Daemon Prince, Plague Marines, Berzerkers, Daemons, and Defiler?

Daemon Prince -> Wolf Lord
Plague Marines -> None
Berzerkers -> Twolf Cav
Daemons -> Fen Wolves
Defiler -> None, but AC dreads (and custom dread builds in general) compensate for more AV12, and Twolf Cav provide the same close combat beat-stick

@Sourclams:
You mean:
Spawn -> TWolf Cav

sourclams wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
Chaos still has exclusive tools, such as a daemon prince, which have different roles. These tools change the army and therefore you cannot simply say Space Wolves > CSM. Considering I use almost "marine units" exclusively, if they were so similar I could easily count my army as Space Wolves. However, when push comes to shove, you realize there are a ton of minor differences that still end up making it a much different army.

Are the exclusive tools Daemon Prince, Plague Marines, Berzerkers, Daemons, and Defiler?

Daemon Prince -> Wolf Lord
Plague Marines -> None
Berzerkers -> Twolf Cav
Daemons -> Fen Wolves
Defiler -> None, but AC dreads (and custom dread builds in general) compensate for more AV12, and Twolf Cav provide the same close combat beat-stick

Are you actually trying to suggest that SWs is CSM 4.5? It's getting a little ridiculous now.

Well, my DP *is* a cavalry model... he could easily be a Wolf Lord on a wolf. Wolfy wolf wolf.

Considering I now use my Word Bearers army exclusively as Space Wolves 4.5, and have no incentive to look back, I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Any build that I really wanted to make with Chaos (save PM FNP-spam) I can do with greater points efficiency using SW, and I get to utilize more FOC slots and have more "fun" with it in general.

A mirror-image CSM vs SM army simply wont work as a comparison. There is a reason CSM has different options than SM. Nobody complains that the eldar variant of a lascannon cost more than the SM version, it's all just down to the variety of lists. Guard pay more for MLs too than marines do, but it's just what it is. The parameters do include army choices and options that differ from the other guys army. Don't like CSM vehicle points costs? give em up and give up your sorceror and demon prince for a stupid chaplain or something while you're at it, because they didn't have the option to take those.

Guitardian:

What are you talking about? The fact that Bright Lances are more costly than Lascannons is the most popular complaint about them, right ahead of the complaint that they're not as effective...

On Topic:

I think that the problem here is that sourclams, at least, finds Space Wolves to be more effective at the configuration he wants to play, and only errs in over-generalizing this to mean Space Wolves are better than Chaos Space Marines in general. His findings don't disagree with the facts, that Space Wolves, Codex Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines don't duplicate their optimal configurations.

I found through playing my dual Blood Angel/Chaos Space Marine army that they played better as Codex Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines, and of those two the configuration worked best using the Chaos Space Marine rules. That's partly why I now have a Codex Space Marine army and a Chaos Space Marine army, because an army playable as either didn't take full advantage of the unique strengths of either.

So I'm lead to the conclusion that people considering Chaos Space Marines "Second Tier" want their Chaos Space Marines to play like Space Wolves or Codex Space Marines, which they won't because they aren't. That's leaving aside the scrubs who don't have the skill to branch out beyond Dual-Lash, and think their one-trick-pony was the only competitive configuration in the Codex.

Part of this seems to stem from an aesthetic choice, something I'm pretty familiar with because that's how I chose my army when I got back into 40k. People want their army configuration and optimal tactics to fit the fluff they imagine for their army. And if they mis-configure their army to live up to some preconceived notion of how it should perform competitively, rather than how it does, then of course an army that isn't mis-configured when written like that will seem more competitive.

Where you err is in thinking that there is some configuration that I "want to play". I simply want to play a competitive configuration. If 50 Lesser Daemons deep striking off of Bike Icons was competitive, I'd play it. It's not; I don't.

With the exception of Lash+Oblits, which according to the internet is now a totally lame one-trick pony and only Internetards choose it over the easter eggs of awesomeness that is the rest of the Chaos Codex, Vanilla Marines or Wolves can do the build 'type' better.

Mech Gunline? Marines and Wolves
AV12 Monster Mash? Marines, and soon BA, although Chaos will come in a close 3rd
Terminators? Is Termicide allowed? Oh, no, because that's somehow lame and gimmicky? Then yeah, Marines
Foot gunline? Wolves
Fast assault? Wolves, and soon BA
HeroHammer? Wolves again, and soon BA
Lash+Oblits? Chaos

I have seen nothing in this thread that somehow opens up more options within a very generic and limited codex, which has been the complaint over current Chaos since... oh, it came out. As more armies get more options, the generic and limited codex only gets moreso.

"But you're not using Chaos with the [Optimal Configuration; proper synergy; out-of-the-box-non-cookie-cutter non-gimmick-reliance]!"

Yeah, okay, I squeezed everything I could out of the Chaos codex. Its average yield and maximum potential isn't nearly what Marines or Wolves are capable of. If you disagree, quantify your argument in a way that promotes debate. The vocal crowd that has been touting the strength of the Chaos codex for the last few months provide nothing in the way of competitive lists or meta shifts (props to you 40kenthusiast for at least trying) and merely sling around theoretical voodoo regarding how good Thousand Sons and Possessed coulda/shoulda been. Okay, great, you made them work, except that the overall trend is that clearly they don't and players don't take them.

Nurglitch wrote:

So I'm lead to the conclusion that people considering Chaos Space Marines "Second Tier" want their Chaos Space Marines to play like Space Wolves or Codex Space Marines, which they won't because they aren't. That's leaving aside the scrubs who don't have the skill to branch out beyond Dual-Lash, and think their one-trick-pony was the only competitive configuration in the Codex.

Yea that's definitely not how I play my army. I really don't like playing Space Marines, they're so static and dull.
I don't use lascannons (pretty much at all, except for the rare oblit shot), my dreads are not shooty or are defilers, I use DP's exclusively, etc.
I don't want to use drop pods (although DSing from the warp like a DP would be pretty cool/fluffy) or razorbacks or ever landraiders.

Part of this seems to stem from an aesthetic choice, something I'm pretty familiar with because that's how I chose my army when I got back into 40k. People want their army configuration and optimal tactics to fit the fluff they imagine for their army. And if they mis-configure their army to live up to some preconceived notion of how it should perform competitively, rather than how it does, then of course an army that isn't mis-configured when written like that will seem more competitive.

I could care less about fluff. It was just a coincidence that in 3.5 some fluff generally = ownage (IW, WB, Slaneesh Termies/Prince).
If I want fluff I can just make my own or find something that fits my playstyle (right now it's fallen angels)



This thread has been derailed hard by people complaining about Eldar (who still generally decimate CSM 1v1, Eldrad anyone?)
or by people who post tailored lists claiming that they can beat Leafblower (while getting owned by everything else, especially fzorgle)

My Black Legion friend did the same thing with his CSM - they are now chaos space wolves, with some converted models and everything.

He's able to build a character that has wargear that does what he wants it to do, and gave him fun conversion and design opportunities. Daemon Princes now can't even take 2x ccw! No customization, no flavor. People take daemon princes because that's the best option in the list.

SW is CSM 4.5 because they've given back nearly everything we lost. Unique psychic defense [cancel on 4+ instead of the ld test - chaos used to reduce enemy ld], customizable characters that are beasts in cc. Unit buffs (wolf banner), veteran skills (counterattack, acute senses), customizable unit (wolf guard).

CSM just have units that suck horribly. Possessed CAN be useful but they're so random that you're never sure if they WILL be. If they even rolled for their ability before deployment that would be a godsend, because you could plan around it. Now you deploy them in their rhino only to find they get scout, and COULD have outflanked. And Chaos Spawn? What were they thinking? With how combat resolution works, and having NO save whatsoever, they're just horrible. A dreadnought can charge and do 2 wounds, killing 2. From instant death, 2 more will die as the unit takes SIX more wounds. That'd be bad enough if they could form units of 10, but they come 3 to a unit. So actually EACH unit in the combat takes 6 wounds, meaning you can nearly wipe out any number of chaos spawn units just by rolling 2 2's to wound.

"Well don't send them against a dreadnought". They're uncontrollable! If the dread is closer, they'll charge right at it, unable to hurt it at all.

The truly chaotic elements of the codex are the ones that are the worst. Chosen don't reflect their elite status at ALL, being +1 ld CSM that can infiltrate, and pay too much for weapon options. Daemons are flavorless, boring, and while they can give you more S4 attacks, I sure wish they were rending, power weapons, or poisoned instead. Greater Daemons are the same - no fluff or flavor, and instead are just a statline on paper. You want them for when you want a S6 T6 THING to go kill the enemy. It's not a tervigon that you want buffing your units, or a Mawloc that you want burrowing out of harm's way, or even a particularly strong beatstick that you want to instant-kill enemy characters - it's not cool enough to do anything remotely like any of those things, it's just generic S6 T6 hit smack beat.

Cultists are gone, as are mutants. The cheap screen of worshipers that the CSM are notorious for exploiting and abusing in their fluff are gone.


The codex is more 2nd tier now because the only reliable units are the generic ones, and when you compare generic to generic from the new codexes, you find CSM's versions are underpowered and overcosted - and it's doubly unfortunate that they're both at the same time!

So that's what the comparison is really about. Sure you can bring in 1ksons, plaguemarines, obliterators - and in SOME cases you'd find those units work SLIGHTLY better. But the armies you're facing aren't always willing to fit into the molds you want them to for the perfect comparison, so we compare instead what we're more likely to see in actual lists. And when you do that, CSM don't come out on top.

+1 to sourclams, spellbound and the OP.

I sadly have to agree to most of the points made from this side. Well, I may be biased as I disliked the current codex:CSM right from the start and have changed my army composition to codex:Space Puppies while using my old models, but then again this is not so much because I like the overall structure and customizability of the latter better (which I admittedly do), but because I do fail to see the alternative builds in codes:CSM.

As has already been stated in a variety of ways, one can't do the mirror match with units originating from codex:SM since most (wait, all!) choices which are present in multiple codici:XXX-Marines are either overpriced in codex:CSM, suffer from the lack of effective upgrades (note: Overpriced icons that fail to give their respective bonuses to the unit once their bearer is dead do count as that) and/or USRs, or plain both. I feel that there is a certain consensus regarding this specific matter.

What I do not get is to which specific (and effective!) unit type(s) or synergy those people. which are stating that codex:CSM is not meant to be played as a pure SM list are defaulting to when choosing an army list. I only get the imression that more and more units are mentioned that are unique in that they are only incorporated into the codex:CSM but which bring . Units which were in part, btw, dismissed as utter crap the day the codex was released (possessed, Cybots, spawn).

I don't want to go into detail, but I for one pretty much fail to see where those units that are unique to Chaos complement the generic (but overcosted) SM part of the list to an extend where it is possible to choose a force that is in itself consistent in terms of playing to a specific game mechanic or theme and that is more efficient in doing so than a comparable list drawn from another marine codex.

There have to be some, at least one of the aforementioned lists that really can get toe to toe with those proclaimed lists that constitute a 'tier 1'. If there are not, then clearly codex:CSM is no longer tier one (if it ever was to begin with) book, as it won't suffice to say that one could take a comparable, but weaker CSM version of a given list and just use 'superior tactics', pray to the dice gods or LTP.

So, what has the codex to offer in addition to SM stuff? I am talking completely Chaos units plus units which differ noticeable from theyr SM brethren that they play very differently:

- Greater Deamon
- Lesser Deamons
- Spawn
- Defiler
- Dreads that kill their teammates (variation of basic dread)
- Oblits
- Lash (other powers negligible at least)
- Termicide (variation of basic terminators)
- Cult troops

Again, I fail to see the profit.
Greater daemons are a loss in a meta that heavily steers towards full (cheap) mech for everyone (no infantry to lock and hide in cc in) and in which everyone has to plan for taking out 6+ TMC with 6 wounds each.
Lesser daemons are basically cheap wounds w/o a save to bolster an assault. The thing is, they are not equipped to go well with the meta (no meltabombs ;-)) and even IF there were the big cc fests from 3rd edition with lots of infantry on the board to get to gripes with, 5th ed combat resolution means that they won't kill much thanks to no special weapons in cc, but give the enemy softer targets to gain a wound advantage on and thus swing a cc from lose to win for your enemy because you brougth MORE models... that's not exactly a 'pro' argument.
Same problem, even worse with my personaly entitled worst unit of 40k ever, the spawn.
Defiler, in and of itself really a fine unit. I don't want to argue the size of the model etc, but note that they present the only av 12 targets besides crazy 'naughts. So to repeat, in a meta where everyone has to tailor his list against IG av 12 spam for 55 points a pop, a dozen of that kind... it's nigh undoable to keep a defiler alive. The unit is fine, the army list around it is not. Simply no synergy units at all.
Dreads. Well, if they were reliably, they could pose a threat. If in addition we had mutated hull av 12 rhinos filled with cc goodness all around... I guess then there would be a case to go full mech. As it stands, the Defilers are first to go, threatening rhinos in turn 2, dreads when there is spare AT. Target priority the easy way.
Oblits. Again a fine unit. Compared to the imperial piefest maybe even overpriced today regarding their fire output, but at least useable. Suffers from the defiler-prob: A cool unit in the only really threatening long-range oriented FOC chart of the list where each lascannon hit more likely than not costs you 75 points... ugh.
Lash. Really worthwhile in 4th ed, but haven't seen a juice lashable target in month, really. Full mech all around. Could be worthwhile again with more infantry-oriented lists like SW or new Nids. Wait, they all have special psychic defense...
Termicide, clearly a unit build that doesn't play to the supposed strength of terminators (survivability and hth punch) which in itself shows that this style of unit build only exists to mitigate a glaring weakness in the chaos list as a whole: AT (or the delivery thereof).
Cult troops, last but not least, are the only 'unit type' I can think of that really is a worth its salt. I see a common consensus in that not all cult troops are equal, esp. thousand sons and noise marines are not exactly worth it. I for one would go so far as to generaly question the useablility of zerkers (mech meta, cost, lack of special ccw, need to charge combined with the slowest movement rate in the game and so on, ablility to die horribly to real horde units as soon as its either the charge condition is not met (likely) and/or the zerkers are reduced to less than max number via shooting or other ccs (very likely, even 8 zerkers start to look bad against a mob of 30 orks)) but I am at least willing to debate. And plague marines are hands down great.
Possessed. I forgot possessed. Oh, was this on purpose?

To sum up, I'd argue that there are many chaosy-units that are downright awful (spawn, possessed, dreadnaught, lesser daemons to a lesser (muhaha) extent). There are few units / unit build styles that are okay or even good as is but are either left standing alone in the open as priority targets w/o possibilities for target saturation or to enhance durability (AV12 Defilers, oblits with t4 and no available transports), are only viable because the list as a whole lacks so much in the category those units fill which in general leads to still way too few options to fill the role in question efficient (oblits again, termicide), fill a role that does not need to be filled (thousand sons, noise marines, defilers again to a lesser extend) or a combination of all three. There are even fewer units that are really great and an advantage to have compared to imperial marine codices, but simply can't win you the game alone if you are fighting with so many drawback in other parts of the list (plague marines, oblits over and over).

Moreover, the list lacks possiblilities in terms of unit deployment to counter certain builds (no pods, 1 single unit that may outflank and is not exactly uber at that, no characters to modify reserve rols or deployment that anybody else seems to have).
The list blatantly lacks psychic defenses.
The list greatly lacks special characters (not in number, that is, but in terms of support ablilities, army list varioations that come with a character or ANYTHING interesting, really. In practice we have only choppy characters, more choppy characters, uber choppy characters etc. The problem with this is that tere can be only one who is best at this profession, so you are basically stuck with abaddon for high point cost hqs, kharn for low cost choppyness, thats it. If one would erase all other named HQs from the already dull book that is codex:CSM there would hardly be any audience to notice).

All of the above combined leave me no choice but to rate the playability of the chaos dex as 2nd tier at best. Seriously, when the one and only LashOblits powerbuild fails, what else is there to draw on in the book?

Mind you, as a long-term (9 years) 40k player that has quite seen some editions/codices come and pass and who is not so arrogant as to call himself a really good player, though at least a mediocre one, it is my perception that there is no shame to loose to a master of the art. So there will always be room for the 'learn to play better tactics, you suck'-oppinion in this thread, but mind you that argument does not always count. It is okay for me to loose to a better player. But it does cost me nerves when I face an opponent who is clearly a worse player than I am und just pulls an internet IG air cav / piefest from his case and I know from turn one and even if I knew his list in advance and would tailor fit mine a certain degree to face him, no matter how hard I trie to block line of sigth, arrange multicharges, bend and twist the rules, I just won't stand a chance. Recently, with all the new dexes, the aforementioned situation arises way too often in my local gaming environment for me to not notice, so I switched to SW. Of course, when I build a generic list and play the same IG piefest over and over again, I still get my ass handed to me 95% of the time, but I at least have the strong feeling that the codex I am using could offer generic solutions to the problem at hand if only I wanted to invest in wolf scouts, lots of pods, 10+ razorbacks or the like and still perform okay against other lists which are not IG. With codex:CSM my conviction is I don't even have that option. Prove me wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*Wall of text crits for 9000*

You guys and poo pooing possessed, spawn, lessers, and dreads...
/sigh.
There is only one thing wrong with possessed, spawn, and lessers: Cost. Other than that, they function well enough. But I'm prob. the only one on this boat.

Whatever the case, there is an overall agreement and strong points of view; it was quite an eye opener. I guess I'm more of a: I'll take whatever I have and try to make it work..."...so pretty much a handicap.

Sanctjud wrote:You guys and poo pooing possessed, spawn, lessers, and dreads...
/sigh.
There is only one thing wrong with possessed, spawn, and lessers: Cost. Other than that, they function well enough. But I'm prob. the only one on this boat.

Whatever the case, there is an overall agreement and strong points of view; it was quite an eye opener. I guess I'm more of a: I'll take whatever I have and try to make it work..."...so pretty much a handicap.

Granted, I like dreads because I play by the real rules, but you are one of the people who brings down the level of tactical discourse in Dakka. Even if Spawn cost 5 points, it wouldn't change the fact that they pretty much kill themselves any time they assault something. As far as the cost of Possessed and Lesser Daemons goes, I'll give you a hint: if something costs too much, it means that when you purchase it you are weakening the rest of your army by the number of points that the unit is overcosted. This means it's dumb to take them.

Exactly. If there is one issue with a unit, and that issue is the point cost, then that translates to issues with efficiency, effectiveness relative to other units, and overall balance. If a unit "costs too much for its effect" then that is the very definition of a weak/bad unit!

How many selections would be more balanced if they simply cost fewer points? Basically every sub-optimal unit in every codex.

I'm sorry if I bring "down the level of tactical discourse in Dakka."

I try to work with units I have access in the CSM army and get the most out of them. Instead of always telling others to copy this list and run with it with Chaos, I'm telling players who are actually interested in the Chaotic choices that they are viable.

And they are in my experiences, and I've written much about them, but either they fall on deaf ears or just not what some are looking for.

Looking at a unit and making it work, dispite their pitfalls...I say it's just a different angle that maybe you are afraid of exploring...who knows.

I used to just 'follow the crowd' and poo poo the above units as well, but then I forced myself to use them and my opinions have changed.

I'll give you a hint:

No need to get snooty, I've been as polite as I can be. I'm sorry if your point is not sinking in that the Tactics board is only about how to rape my opponents' army.

if something costs too much, it means that when you purchase it you are weakening the rest of your army by the number of points that the unit is overcosted. This means it's dumb to take them.

So basically you are saying everything but Daemon Princes and 1/2 the cults are dumb...which would support the notion that the CSM are second tier...wait...it starts to sound more like 3rd tier if only 1 HQ choice (DP) and 2 types of troops (zerkers/plagues) are not considered overcosted.

I will respond when I have more time. I'm not convinced, (though surely that's no surprise this is the internet, we don't convince here), that CSM are not as good as SM/SW.

I think part of it is the move to mech. Chaos space marines are awesome troopers that deal well with other troopers. However, they're really expensive if you're sending them tank hunting. The other new codecies have multiple ways of getting cheap melta, the best part of Chaos lies in their basic troops.

It was alright in 4th because of the entangle rule. If a 10 man squad got out and shot down a rhino, the squad inside the rhino were entangled and couldn't retaliate. Next turn the chaos marines charge. In this edition, having 10 marines get out just to kill a rhino sucks.

So I would propose...give combi-meltas to every rhino. For a measly 10 points you get a melta weapon on a cheap transport AND increase the toughness of the rhino vs. glancing hits. That way, if you need to commit a melta weapon to popping a transport, your rhinos can do it. This way you don't need to commit a 10 man squad, 3 obliterators, or whatever else is expensive to doing the anti-tank role.

Another idea would be using the icons with deep striking termies with combi-meltas. I've used this strategy successfully before, and I don't see why it couldn't work now.

lash/oblits is played out. Since mech is directly countering that build, it's time to play accordingly.

sourclams wrote:AV12 Monster Mash? Marines, and soon BA, although Chaos will come in a close 3rd

This is the only thing I disagree with. Chaos can do a Monster Mash much better than anyone. They get 3x Dreads as elites, 3x Defilers as heavies (which are fleet), and then 2x Flying Demon Princes, and a Greater Demon. The Lash of Submission works really well in this build because it allows you to help speed the fellaz into assault faster, and then the GD shows up in reserve. With a Rhino carting an Icon, he get get quite a bit of distance on his summoning turn.

Conversely, the Marine AV12 spam list is much slower, albeit has a few more weapons. I think you find that a dread spam marine list doesn't really give you anything that having razorbacks and combat squadded heavy weapons does, actually.