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Frazzled wrote:

No they are more of a fire and forget weapon. If you've ever seen a weiner dog run, once you recover from the hysterical laughter, you'll definitely forget. It takes them awhile, I mean come on the Shanker's legs are 6 inches long and he's the big one...

So, maybe a giant slingshot or modified potato cannon could be used as a deployment method for Battle weiner dogs...

Schools are also an excellent choice. In Texas most schools double as hurricane or tornado shelters are are designed to be very tough. The elementary that GC goes to (two weeks and counting then its the Big Leagues for GC!!!) is masonry and stone and built as a tornado shelter. Glass is shatter resistant metal reinforced glass. Doors are lockable, metal and few. Has a full kitchen and water, and really cool art supplies and a library (for no reason in particular). Practically defendable with a small group as well.

Orlanth wrote:

AndrewC wrote:
PS want an ideal place to stay, google Fort George, Scotland and have a look at the satellite plan. Okay you need a few bodies to secure it, but once you have......

Hmm, no. Those are good field defences for the gunpowder age, so a GMPG on the battlements will have perforating fire because it is a much lower firing position. However because it is based around massed fieldsd of fire it will require a hefty garrison. Scotland has some very nice castles to use, but I would rule out any design post 15th century.

I was actually meaning in the initial stages there's a fair few rooms to check, but after that, its a doddle.

Why would you rule out any design post 15th century?

Andrew

Anyone here espouse the 'keep moving' doctrine of zombie survival. Zombieland is based on that principle (another highly recmmended film).

Personally I think its doomed and only lasts as long as the next unlucky encounter in unfmailiar territory or as far as scavenged resources last.

Orlanth wrote:

You mean we rig up TV's on the battlements and screen episodes of Friends on continuous loop. How cruel, but will it deter zombies?

..I think we may have just stumbled upon the root cause of the zombie issue perhaps.

Orlanth wrote:Anyone here espouse the 'keep moving' doctrine of zombie survival. Zombieland is based on that principle (another highly recmmended film).

Personally I think its doomed and only lasts as long as the next unlucky encounter in unfmailiar territory or as far as scavenged resources last.

I think eventually everyone goes to keep moving which devolves into caveman level unless the zombie plague gets zapped. Meanwhile the farmers start farming again and humanity resets to about 2500BC. Either zombie games wind down in just a few months or its 2500BC time.

Frazzled wrote:Schools are also an excellent choice. In Texas most schools double as hurricane or tornado shelters are are designed to be very tough. The elementary that GC goes to (two weeks and counting then its the Big Leagues for GC!!!) is masonry and stone and built as a tornado shelter. Glass is shatter resistant metal reinforced glass. Doors are lockable, metal and few. Has a full kitchen and water, and really cool art supplies and a library (for no reason in particular). Practically defendable with a small group as well.

Yeah but you'd be stuck eating cafeteria food....a fate worse than zombification.

agnosto wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Schools are also an excellent choice. In Texas most schools double as hurricane or tornado shelters are are designed to be very tough. The elementary that GC goes to (two weeks and counting then its the Big Leagues for GC!!!) is masonry and stone and built as a tornado shelter. Glass is shatter resistant metal reinforced glass. Doors are lockable, metal and few. Has a full kitchen and water, and really cool art supplies and a library (for no reason in particular). Practically defendable with a small group as well.

Yeah but you'd be stuck eating cafeteria food....a fate worse than zombification.

Nah thats why you go to the elementary. We're talking pizza, burgers, lots of sweets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mistress of minis wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

No they are more of a fire and forget weapon. If you've ever seen a weiner dog run, once you recover from the hysterical laughter, you'll definitely forget. It takes them awhile, I mean come on the Shanker's legs are 6 inches long and he's the big one...

So, maybe a giant slingshot or modified potato cannon could be used as a deployment method for Battle weiner dogs...

I like you're thinking there. You could even set up a tripwire system that launches a weiner dog ala bouncing betty style. Nice.

Library=Books, which burn well for fire

Also don't forget to grab some super soakers as they'll likely have some turpentine around the place for it.


Local school is like that here, but with archery stuff
Grab a few bows maybe a knife or two and of course the arrows and it will take a long time for you to fully run out of ammo. Not to mention it has a wood work section and metal working section as well. Them combined with a lot of time, a good imagination and a need to kill everything around would make some pretty interesting weapons (you should be getting the mental image of the bulky iron man suit from the movie bursting out of a school and trampling over zombies laughing manically). Like off the top of my head, fixing up something like a sword, but with some batteries (big of course) as a pack to heat up the blade to the level where it stops the wounds from bleeding, then of course the handle needs insulation.

Basically be imaginative to the level of near Mcguyver-ness (Unless you killed 20 zombies with a sniper rifle made out of pencil, paper clip and two rubber bands you're only close ), get a secure place then be a total jerk to all the zombies until the end of your life. Not like there's anything else to do

I'd suggest bringing along a loaded revolver, with "plan B" engraved on the side. The bullets aren't for the zombies.

agnosto wrote:A little OT but the conversation between Mistress and IG piqued my curiosity. I had no idea that it was so easy to get a federal firearms license (FFA). Heck, I might just get one so I can buy a SAW or an old M-60 (even though I'd have to take out a second mortgage for ammo).

Getting the FFL and getting a machine gun are seperate processes Sorta like getting a drivers license compared to the most difficult car registration imaginable. The breaking point for alot of people, is the clause that lets ATF pretty much walk into your house/buisness anytime they want- no warrant required. It doesnt happen often but its in their ability.

agnosto wrote:As for weight, depending on what load you're using, they're not all that heavy. I've carried 50 or more shells with me on camping/hunting trips. Besides, a shotgun should be your close-in back-up weapon.

The average shot shells, you get about 8-10 rounds per lb of weight. Add in a 12 lb gun that can fire 300 rpm out of 32 rd drums.....a decent combat load is gonna take a weight lifter, or military level fitness thats used to humpin a pretty solid ruck. On the up side, if you had enough mags you could lighten your load by around 30 lbs per minute

agnosto wrote:Back on topic. Frazz is right, plenty of firearms down here and ammo for most weapons is not a problem because every 3rd house you walk into would have ammo...
Heck, down south even the zombies will be packing.

Lets make zombies with LAZER BEAMS in thier frikkin heads!!! Add in a wireless cam and it could be like a zombie FPS game!

Imagine the Mythbusters episodes post Z-day.....

Ayah I carry 50 in my skeet bag for well skeet and that just makes you look like Daniel Boone with a possibles bag. A couple of clips of .308 and your set.

Of course if they really are shambly zombies I could carry about 10,000 rounds of .22 LR and keep the shotgun for people, who would be much more fo a threat.

AndrewC wrote:Why would you rule out any design post 15th century?

The nature of warfare changed after large gunpowder cannons became more common in the 15th century, meaning that older castle designs could no longer adequately protect those inside. Thus, new designs of castle sprung up to provide protection from a mostly cannon/musket based attack, rather than from attack by catapult, wall stormings etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle#Innovation_and_scientific_design

Any 50lbs just to arm yourself for the possible destruction of about 50 zombies? I'd rather carry 50 rounds of regular ammunition and then all the rest of the gear I would need to go further. Or better yet, stock my castle with as much ammo as I could find and not have to use it because the zombies can't get past the walls

Mistress of minis wrote:Imagine the Mythbusters episodes post Z-day.....

Tonight on Mythbusters.. Can you create a zombie killing cannon with a air compressor and some metal pipes and what random junk can kill them so you know what to ram down the barrel

SilverMK2 wrote:
The nature of warfare changed after large gunpowder cannons became more common in the 15th century, meaning that older castle designs could no longer adequately protect those inside. Thus, new designs of castle sprung up to provide protection from a mostly cannon/musket based attack, rather than from attack by catapult, wall stormings etc.

No, he seemed to infer that he would rule out any castle designed built after the 15th century for defense against zombies (or have I misread )

As far as I can see they still have the same defensive properties against 'foot'.

Andrew

A lot of post C15 castles have slightly lower walls, often where older towers were pulled down in order to form platforms large enough to mount cannons.

There is also the fact that many more modern castles are not actually designed for defense, as such, compared to the older styles - they are designed for comfort and looks, rather than being able to be heavily defended sites.

And to reply to an earlier comment about Dover castle - it might be a good place to hole up, but will be far more likely to be in control of whatever is left of government, since it has all sorts of relatively new tech in there, and is in very good condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Castle#The_secret_wartime_tunnels

SilverMK2 wrote:A lot of post C15 castles have slightly lower walls, often where older towers were pulled down in order to form platforms large enough to mount cannons.

There is also the fact that many more modern castles are not actually designed for defense, as such, compared to the older styles - they are designed for comfort and looks, rather than being able to be heavily defended sites.

True, but I would have thought that they were still high enough to fend off the zombie hordes

And looking at the pictures for Fort George, and having visited, I know where I want to go.

Andrew

Well, they are certainly better than houses, but I would suggest more wall = better

There are about 70m people here in the UK at the moment, and we are one of the most densely populated nations around too - that makes for a lot of potential zombies, and not much room to hide.

Although, as I have mentioned, I have my doubts on how many there would actually be with the traditional bite/infected/coma/zombie cycle of about 16-14 hours, for the reasons explained earlier.

However, with the "space probe radiation" style "anyone who dies comes back a zombie within minutes of death" zombies, we could be up poo river without any trousers.

AndrewC wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:A lot of post C15 castles have slightly lower walls, often where older towers were pulled down in order to form platforms large enough to mount cannons.

There is also the fact that many more modern castles are not actually designed for defense, as such, compared to the older styles - they are designed for comfort and looks, rather than being able to be heavily defended sites.

True, but I would have thought that they were still high enough to fend off the zombie hordes

And looking at the pictures for Fort George, and having visited, I know where I want to go.

Andrew

Partly, the reason is because old castles from the Uk were manpower efficient. Medieval castles in the Uk had a different doctrine from those in most of Europe, alpine forts excepted. Continetnal castles wre there to defend against large sale siege, and support large offensive garrisons, some in ther Uk were (Tower of London, Dover) but most such as the bastion castles of Edward 1 were there to secure hostile territory and offer low garrison number points for secure perpetual control, relief garrisons could then be centralised. Most British castles on all sides of the borders were built that way, relatively small, low garrison counts and very efficient.

Castles had sniper garrsions plus a few men at arms/knights for chokepoints, realtively high walls small towers high multiple viewpoints. Manpower was only concentrated around the gates and then only when needed.

Now when you get the the renaissance fire volume of powder and shot are what matters, its all becomes very mathmetical. Walls are at the correct angle, not just to deflect shot but also to bring maximum numbers of musketry and cannon to bear. Its very manpoweer intensive.

Take Fort George to example, the walls are angled to create crossfires, now this would be excellent if you had machine gunners and lots of ammo, but you also have problems.

1. Renaissance forts require an active garrison, contantly ready to fire, the large building behind the walls are mostly magazines, you would be expected to get through a huge volume of ammo in a defence. defenders of earlier castles sat individually with bows and waited for odd opportunities. This translates into active wall defence to repel zombies, wheras the garrison in a medieval castle can and should very likely sit tight and do nothing most of the time.

2. Sloped walls are climbable, even if with a little difficulty.

3. Renaissance forts had lower walls to allow for penetrating shot shoot from a high wall shot goes through the target into the ground, shoot from low level and shot pases through one into a another. This will make for efficient automatic fire, that is true, but it also means that to gain 'height' renaissance forts requires deep excavated dry moats. LOS to those is poor and as zombies accumulate they will become zombie traps. Zombies around a medieval castle would eventuially drift away, especially if the garrison is quiet.

4. The main reason. Look at the angles of fire. An archer tower in a mediaval castle has a 360 degree view and will cover 180 arc of wall. Musket emplacements in a renassaince fortress will have 60 degree fire arcs at best, often far less, they are supposed to only see to the front for their own protection adn for good musketry drill, renaissance garrisons were much larger and the idea is that if you can see the defenders they have a crossfire on you from two walls. This means even if you have machine guns and lots of ammo you will need to set up defenders on every stetch of wall to account for full coverage and must keep active garrsion at all times because the walls are lower. Meanwhile three or four riflemen in the highest wall towers will provide full active cover for an earlier castle even a large one like Caernarvon, and you could get away with a watch as few as one or two men mean the gate or even ignore the zombies entirely. Given three silenced sniper rifles and careful use of arrowslits you could mount a silent defence against wandering zombies without them knowing where they are drawing fire from.

Fort George is a great example of a renaissance fortress, but lt will be best used for stopping the post nuclear biker hordes, not zombies.

I'm sorry but all this castle talk took a fun thread and made it unfun. Thanks.

Orlanth wrote:
Take Fort George to example, the walls are angled to create crossfires, now this would be excellent if you had machine gunners and lots of ammo, but you also have problems.

1. Renaissance forts require an active garrison, contrnstly firing, rather than in sniper position with a bow and waiting for opportunities. This translates into active wall defence to repel zombies, wheras the garrison in a medival castle can and should very likely sit tight and do nothing most of the time.

2. Sloped walls are climbable, even if with a little difficulty.

What you say makes sense, but we're coming at cross purposes here. Are we trying to actively kill all zombies or create a self sustaining bastion?

The walls at this particular fort still have high, almost vertical walls in 30' range. The slopes you are referring to are at the top, and are currently unreachable to the zombies. (presumably to allow grenades to roll back on the attackers! not an issue in this case) With the notion of acrobatic zombies now discounted they still can't get in because the walls are still sufficiently tall/vertical enough that they can't climb them. So if they can't get in, why waste ammo?

You're doing generic, I'm on specific.

Andrew

However since Fort George is home to the 3rd Black Watch, complete with their armoury, the problem isn't how the zombies get in, it's how do I get in?

Then..

The zombies have Trebuchets that launch cars what do your old frail castles do now?

n0t_u wrote:Then..

The zombies have Trebuchets that launch cars what do your old frail castles do now?

Let the French be your guide. They know what to with besiegers!

n0t_u wrote:Then..

The zombies have Trebuchets that launch cars what do your old frail castles do now?

Ask if they have the relevant paperwork to allow them to scrap cars in that matter , and while they try to figure out the relevant legislative paperwork , which is hard enought when your alive , nip round with a pair of scissors and cut the ropes

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:


What you say makes sense, but we're coming at cross purposes here. Are we trying to actively kill all zombies or create a self sustaining bastion?

The walls at this particular fort still have high, almost vertical walls in 30' range. The slopes you are referring to are at the top, and are currently unreachable to the zombies. (presumably to allow grenades to roll back on the attackers! not an issue in this case) With the notion of acrobatic zombies now discounted they still can't get in because the walls are still sufficiently tall/vertical enough that they can't climb them. So if they can't get in, why waste ammo?

You're doing generic, I'm on specific.

30' is still a minimum defensive wall. So to have your low to the ground firing positions you need negative height. Now your zombies will get in there and fester, and come out when you are trying to do supply runs etc etc. Think of it as a countersunk trench filled with zombies ready to jump you if you come out.

The walls will be oriented opposite to earlier walls, old castles had a glasis at the bottom to deflect rams and boulders, renaissance forts had glasis at the top because thats the only part seen from level view.

Put is this way, medieval men could build renaissance style forts they didnt because in a pre-powder age it wasnt necessary usually. Zombies are a 'pre-powder' opponent.

Got medieval?

AndrewC wrote:
However since Fort George is home to the 3rd Black Watch, complete with their armoury, the problem isn't how the zombies get in, it's how do I get in?

Black Watch would probably be taking in survivors, initial run survivors will include bite victims, you and the survivoprs from the Watch will need to clear it out first. old castles are rarelty active garrisons, Tower of London being the only exception, so its a matter of walking in. The National Trust aren't going to be able to stop you.

Orlanth wrote:Black Watch would probably be taking in survivors, initial run survivors will include bite victims, you and the survivoprs from the Watch will need to clear it out first. old castles are rarelty active garrisons, Tower of London being the only exception, so its a matter of walking in. The National Trust aren't going to be able to stop you.

Sorry, this is one of the exceptions, see those nice clear fields, thats their firing ranges.

Andrew

So, I say we take the island idea mentioned earlier- and take it to the next evolution.

An aircraft carrier! If the previous crew got zombiefied, cleaning them out might be too much effort- but if they killed eachother off already, you have a huge amount of infrastructure. Sure, the nuclear plant is only going to last 20 years, maybe longer with light use. But thats plenty of time to wait out the zombies. Theres desalinators for water, long term food stores for a few thousand people. Although the owner/operator manual might take a while to get through.

I suppose any of the nuclear destroyers would work too, you jsut wouldnt have the acreage on the deck to make a nice garden

Mistress of minis wrote:So, I say we take the island idea mentioned earlier- and take it to the next evolution.

An aircraft carrier! If the previous crew got zombiefied, cleaning them out might be too much effort- but if they killed eachother off already, you have a huge amount of infrastructure. Sure, the nuclear plant is only going to last 20 years, maybe longer with light use. But thats plenty of time to wait out the zombies. Theres desalinators for water, long term food stores for a few thousand people. Although the owner/operator manual might take a while to get through.

I suppose any of the nuclear destroyers would work too, you jsut wouldnt have the acreage on the deck to make a nice garden

A bold plan, to be sure. On the other hand, anyone can figure out how to man a castle in a few days. How many people know how to operate a nuclear vessel of any size? For that matter, how many people does it take to operate a nuclear carrier? This 11 man castle sounds like the ideal place to be in a zombie outbreak simply for its ease of use and low population requirements.

I do like the idea of a large boat as a source of salvation, but I wonder how long it would take to organize or train a crew.

Ever seen a boat that has been at sea for 20 years without any real dry-dock upkeep?

Even the best maintained machines break down eventually. I know how to get clean water for a handful of people with nothing more than a sheet of plastic and a cup of dirty water, but nothing that will clear enough water for a few thousand people packed on an aircraft carrier.

Another problem comes with supplies, overcrowding, food, etc.

With a castle there is the possibility of growing food within the walls, but nothing like that on a ship. You also have great defense against both human and zombie attackers. On a ship you may be safe from zombies, but don't think everyone won't run to the docks when they realise what is happening. Not everyone on the seas will be playing nice.

.....thinking now...I think I'd man up to a zombie if I had chainmail on...with sword and shield....I don't think I could just sit and wait for years and years on a ship. again, thinking about it I'd rather get out and do something useful than just sit there =/ I think I'd be happy as Cannon Fodder trying to protect my friends and family than some body that takes up space, eats the food, and does menial tasks.


Although as people have stated....that may change if the situation does arise....Thats just what I would want to do.

Loot the local pawn shop for a sword. Swords don't run out of ammo like shotguns, don't run out of fuel like chainsaws, and decapitate much easier than a ball bat. Swords are the answer to zombies. Trust me... I've dealt with it a couple of times before, and my wakazashi is never far from my bed nowadays. Maybe I'm NUTS or maybe I'm PREPARED! that's for cops to figure out... if they survive the next outbreak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we get them here a lot, almost as often as tornados... just go to walmart and take a look around you'll see what I'm talking about... They're EVERYWHERE, just waiting, eating, growing, shuffling around.... so yeah get a good sword and you'll be fine