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Chimera_Calvin wrote:@incarna - You've mentioned the economy of scale with multiple Fire Prisms giving you the capability of twin linking and increasing firepower or splitting fire, but the Night Spinner also has an economy of scale - just a more subtle one.

By being able to put multiple enemy units into difficult/dangerous terrain you will not only cause more casualties but also slow down multiple units. This can be used to great advantage to cause bottlenecks in an enemy advance. As an eldar player your greatest advantage is the fact that you will be more mobile than your opponent.

The Night Spinner's job is not to kill things (although it does kill infantry and light vehicles very well) but to act as a force multiplier for your superior mobility by reducing your opponents.

Against infantry heavy armies like Orks and especially Tyranids (maybe even Blood Angels), the Night Spinner is a superior choice. As with all things the final decision will depend on your local meta, but I don't think the choice is as cut-and-dry as it first appears.

Don’t get me wrong – I’ll be taking the spinner for a test drive and magnetizing my fire prisms so they can swap weapons (who knows what future incarnations of the Eldar codex will mean) but, as an Eldar player, I don’t have a problem with unmounted infantry – ever. When I shake my codex infantry solutions sprinkle out like snowflakes and I’m left shoveling my sidewalk while I figure out which ones to incorporate into my army… I wasn’t exactly preying on the GW altar for one more.

incarna wrote:
Let say the Night Spinner hits, on average, 7 models with its twin linked pie plate compared to 5 for the Fire Prism which isn’t twin linked when firing unlinked.

Why are we saying that? Your entire maths is based off that initial assumption. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not really familiar with the probabilities of scattering, but I am curious to know if that was just a loose assumption you proceeded to do precise maths with, or if it is based off probability.

I think the Melissa is right, the Nightspinner seems pretty good. Not everyone plays guard. This metagame people go on about may very well exist in strength in some gaming circles, but I know for a fact that it isn't the case everywhere.

farseerphil wrote:So - if a mob of 30 boys gets hit by the night spinner - next turn they move - do all 30 take dangerous or just the ones who didnt fail to be wounded?....

imagine hitting 3 squads of boyz clumped together. Eww.


I think i may buy a ton of these just to make Turrets for my wave serpents. Sell the Bits on Ebay that I dont use to make up the cost.

Melissia wrote:It says any "unit", which is the entire squad.

What is extra nice about this is you only need to hit a squad to have that effect, the weapon need not wound anyone. Dump the template clipping several units (by targeting a small target between them), twin linking away most of your scatter and you can force dangerous terrain tests on a LOT of opponents.
It's situational, but potentially horribly lethal.

Both my local eldar players love running 3 wraithlord lists, and playing Tau, I find them pretty easy to take out. Rangers in cover are a pita though.

I like this Nightspinner, I hope it encourages some diversity in the local meta.

While on the subject of the NS/FP, i am currently assembling my flgs' Preview copy of the kit. Standard Falcon chassis, the skirt/hull extensions are actually listed in the instruction manny as Vectored Engines: they are 4 pieces, fit overthe post thingies next to the actual engines, and can be left to move a bit if you so choose. The engine bits are listed as Star Engines which is nice. with a little modification and magnets, you could make these tremovable.
The tank itself is a beaut: the weapon bits could also be magnetized if you wanted. the only problem i have had with the kit is that when assembled, the whole tank is heavy towords the rear: when you put it on the flying base, it will lean back. WAY back. a minute of work with your pin vice, and right as rain.

What month's issue is this in btw? Is the Eldar Artillery rules changed in there?

NeoMaul wrote:

incarna wrote:
Let say the Night Spinner hits, on average, 7 models with its twin linked pie plate compared to 5 for the Fire Prism which isn’t twin linked when firing unlinked.

Why are we saying that? Your entire maths is based off that initial assumption. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not really familiar with the probabilities of scattering, but I am curious to know if that was just a loose assumption you proceeded to do precise maths with, or if it is based off probability.

The number of actual models hit is irrelevant. The number 7 was an arbitrary number I picked to illustrate my point. The point/kill ratio is equally scalable across both units - sometimes the template will hit more, sometimes it'll hit less. I actually have a pretty complex equation for calculating models hit by a weapon that scatters if you’d like to see it but, like I said, it’s irrelevant.

You should figure the Twin-linked advantage in, when calculating 1 v 1.

I also agree with Orlanth that the possibility of clipping multiple infantry units with a single shot is a brutal one.

As Incarna noted, Eldar aren't typically short of anti-intantry guns, but I think this thing has potential.

My biggest worry is how tournaments will handle it. Right now, they normally list codices which are legal for use, and WD isn't a codex. The biggest concern as an organizer is everyone having access to the rules; and in a few months that'll be a problem, unless GW puts it on the website as a PDF.

This thing is supposed to beat out Fire Prisms and/or Falcons for my Heavy slots? Fire Prisms can already drop pie plates AND kill tanks. No, thanks.

Thanks for the mathhammer incarna, but completely omitting the special rule you actually buy the night spinner for is, let's say, somewhat biased.

Honestly, I have more problems with hordes of geqs closing into my squishy damage dealers. With the help of the spinner, I can reliably backing up and shoot the bastards down.

Greets
Schepp himself

You are fighting a losing battle Schepp. the Internet says it's not any good.

Schepp himself wrote:Thanks for the mathhammer incarna, but completely omitting the special rule you actually buy the night spinner for is, let's say, somewhat biased.

Honestly, I have more problems with hordes of geqs closing into my squishy damage dealers. With the help of the spinner, I can reliably backing up and shoot the bastards down.

Greets
Schepp himself

I don’t consider the Night Spinner’s special rule to be superior to the Fire Prism’s ability to threaten vehicles and link.

Your opponent counts as moving in difficult terrain which means, on average, you’re shaving ~2” off his 6” movement – not overly significant in my opinion. Yes – they ALSO count as moving through dangerous terrain so you have a 5.5% chance of killing a MEQ, 13.8% chance of killing an ork boy or gaunt, an 11.11% chance of killing a guardsmen, and an 8.33% chance of killing a Fire Warrior.

What’s more, in objective missions, I don’t need to slow the enemy down – I need to wipe scoring units off the board. In kill point missions, I don’t need to slow the enemy down – I need to wipe them off the board. There are far too many outflanking/deepstriking units out there for me to be concerned with slowing them down – being dead is better and a solution for every unit from the lowly Grot to the mighty Monolith whether it deepstrikes, outflanks, scouts, infiltrates, moves fast, or turbo boosts.

This is just my analysis. You’re free to use the unit and, as I said, I will be using the unit in hopes of utilizing it in a meaningful way, but I don’t expect any new revolutionary tactics to manifest with the Night Spinner as the linchpin.

I’m happy Eldar got a little love but I’m not going to praise GW for their LACK of comprehension of what is actually needed within the Eldar army list. I hope it sees improvement when it will undoubtedly be included in the next Eldar codex but currently, it’s simply not in the context of what the Eldar army could benefit from.

I like it. I think the range of the gun makes it better than most Eldar anti-infantry weapons. I also like the barrage capabilities which allow the tank to remain hissen/obscured while it fires. Unlike with the Fire Prism, the Spinner won't be denied shots by an enemy which is hidden.

In so many games the Eldar just need to slow the enemy down to wipe them off an objective or kill an entire unit. To many times the Warp Spiders or Dire Avengers just needed one more turn of shooting or they warp jumped just a few inches to short to be out of charge range of the enemy. To many of those Eldar units are great in the shooting pahse and their weakness is in assault.

I understand the numbers, but I don't live my life by them. Enemy units might have their movement reduced by 2" on average, but all it takes is one failed charge because of reduced movement to turn the tide of a game and gain victory. Without the CHANCE of it happening, it will never happen and that's all you can ask for in a good take all comers list, just a chance to win the game.

Incarna-

You make some very valid points... but you miss one VERY important one...Unlike just about every other army, Eldar units are not mean to work alone.

The ability to slow down enemy units...which makes them bait for multiple charges is phenomenal.

Even elite eldar hth units suffer against T4. A spinner that takes out 2 marines faithfully is insanely powerful in the context of softening it up for a charge.

Further, the only way the prisms get good is with multiple units... so a truely effective prism blast is coming from twice the points value of a normal prism.

If you would...please compare the effectiveness of 1,2 & 3 prism blasts vs. 1, 2 & 3 spinner blasts. There comes a point where the prism is vastly superior. But that point is some where between 2 & 3 prisms. And please recall that 1 prism is a waste of points..while 1 spinner is endlessly useful.

ender502

I'm sorry but I think anything that helps eldar direct and slow the enemy more would be helpfull. For an army based on its placement and skill I would think you guys would welcome a chance to slow down and disrupt your enemys plans.

All it takes is one unit at the front to slow an entire army. Oh your guys didnt roll high enough, guess your tanks are trapped at the back.

Plus that one squad no longer within assault or objective range will be a game winner a lot of times. Not to mention picking and choosing what Tyranids to make I1 in their next Assault.

Will it be legal for Ard Boyz?

It releases the weekend before the semi-final, and I'd love to have me one if possible.

I definately think the Night Spinner has it's uses, Versus Horde armies on a terrain filled board or vs jump/jet/bike/jetbike armies it would probably do very well solely on the special rule. I'd prob take 2 prisms and a spinner but getting me to fork out for one when I already have 3 prisms is another story ;D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UsdiThunder wrote:Will it be legal for Ard Boyz?

It releases the weekend before the semi-final, and I'd love to have me one if possible.

Who knows on that one unless they specifically state it is.

Generally codexes aren't legal for tournaments until they have been out for a month, not sure about "chapter approved" style units.

incarna wrote:I don’t consider the Night Spinner’s special rule to be superior to the Fire Prism’s ability to threaten vehicles and link.

Your opponent counts as moving in difficult terrain which means, on average, you’re shaving ~2” off his 6” movement – not overly significant in my opinion. Yes – they ALSO count as moving through dangerous terrain so you have a 5.5% chance of killing a MEQ, 13.8% chance of killing an ork boy or gaunt, an 11.11% chance of killing a guardsmen, and an 8.33% chance of killing a Fire Warrior.

In addition to the other comments (such as how others have rightly pointed out that slowing a unit or two CAN often win you the game), you’re missing that Dangerous Terrain ignores armor saves. So that’s 1/6 of the models in the unit dead (excepting Invulnerables or multi-wound models) the next time they move. A not-insignificant bonus, especially when you consider the ability to clip multiple units with it.

I agree that you need to make sure your tankbusting is covered; particularly in the current vehicle-heavy environment. But one (maybe two, depending on your local meta) of these things will probably be well worthwhile.

gardeth wrote:Generally codexes aren't legal for tournaments until they have been out for a month, not sure about "chapter approved" style units.

Translation: "Oh God I hope it won't be out there killing all my little mean-space-elves and making them slow to boot!!"

This will be important in lots of Eldar armies, a very good choicto complement the 2 units of warwalkers you see in many lists.

Mannahnin wrote: you’re missing that Dangerous Terrain ignores armor saves.

Erm, does it?

Indeed

Dangerous terrain only allows invul saves and another big perk is if your opponent is stupid enough to use it's jump or jet packs they take 2 tests ;D

Jetbikes are f'ed. Forced to take 2 dangerous terrain tests no matter what they do unless they stay still the rest of the game.

incarna wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:

incarna wrote:
Let say the Night Spinner hits, on average, 7 models with its twin linked pie plate compared to 5 for the Fire Prism which isn’t twin linked when firing unlinked.

Why are we saying that? Your entire maths is based off that initial assumption. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not really familiar with the probabilities of scattering, but I am curious to know if that was just a loose assumption you proceeded to do precise maths with, or if it is based off probability.

The number of actual models hit is irrelevant. The number 7 was an arbitrary number I picked to illustrate my point. The point/kill ratio is equally scalable across both units - sometimes the template will hit more, sometimes it'll hit less. I actually have a pretty complex equation for calculating models hit by a weapon that scatters if you’d like to see it but, like I said, it’s irrelevant.

I was referring to your assumption that the NS would hit 7 while the prism would hit 5. What are the probabilities for twin linked blast vs non twin linked?

BlueDagger wrote:Dangerous terrain only allows invul saves and another big perk is if your opponent is stupid enough to use it's jump or jet packs they take 2 tests ;D

Jetbikes are f'ed. Forced to take 2 dangerous terrain tests no matter what they do unless they stay still the rest of the game.

You can only ever take one Dangerous terrain test per model, per turn. (Somewhere in the rulebook)

BlueDagger wrote:Dangerous terrain only allows invul saves and another big perk is if your opponent is stupid enough to use it's jump or jet packs they take 2 tests ;D

Jetbikes are f'ed. Forced to take 2 dangerous terrain tests no matter what they do unless they stay still the rest of the game.

The dangerous terrain effect expires at the end of the turn. So a unit can avoid the 1:6 kills by forfeiting movement. Of course this is tradeoff and the Night Spinner can perpetuate the problem by retargeting the same unit.

Incorrect, the originally quoted rule is incorrect. The wording states that you place a token next to any unit hit and the unit suffers the effects the next time it moves for any reason. It doesn't wear off until the unit moves.

Defiler if you could find that one for me let me know. The wording in the BRB purely just states that you takes a dangerous terrain test if you start or land in difficult terrain.

conversely, the special rule never states that the tokens accumulate.