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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Melissia wrote:
pretre wrote:Then don't post in a thread talking about what the official stance is.
What TOs think is irrelevant to RAW, and quite frequently contradicts it.

FAQs are RAW. GW says you don't have to use them, but they're still RAW.


This. If TO stances are RAW, then we not only get allies, we get IG Vets per 'Ard Boyz.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

daedalus wrote:Something else I thought about; this isn't really even an actual publication. I can't find an ISBN anywhere for it. The copyright info is still identical too.

Until someone says on GW's site that the omission of Allies was intentional, but the FoC was not, I can't take it seriously.


ISBN is not required. BA Codex didn't have a ISBN pretty sure when they did the Web Version. Errata don't either.

If you're going to wait for an official statement, you'll be waiting a while.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Melissia wrote:
pretre wrote:Then don't post in a thread talking about what the official stance is.
What TOs think is irrelevant to RAW, and quite frequently contradicts it.

FAQs are RAW. GW says you don't have to use them, but they're still RAW.


Except for the fact that they're the ones, y'know, running the tournament, and are the people who have the final authority on a rule decision where it's unclear.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I responded to everything in your post save the last sentence about how some people play tournaments and therefor care.

But if you play tournaments none of this matters anyway because it's up to the TO in the end, not GW. Therefor it's pointless to argue about it. Regardless of what's in this PDF, and the Errata/FAQs, TOs rarely play by pure RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/23 16:41:40


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

daedalus wrote:
Melissia wrote:
pretre wrote:Then don't post in a thread talking about what the official stance is.
What TOs think is irrelevant to RAW, and quite frequently contradicts it.

FAQs are RAW. GW says you don't have to use them, but they're still RAW.


This. If TO stances are RAW, then we not only get allies, we get IG Vets per 'Ard Boyz.


And here's where partial quoting makes debates difficult. I never said TO stances are RAW. I said TO stances are important because TOs will often decide based on the evidence.

In this case, the evidence is that GW updated the rules by removing sections. Intentionally or not.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

pretre wrote:TOs will often decide based on the evidence.
HAH! No. Quite frequently they change RAW on a whim because of some misguided belief about balance due to their personal experience. Even the better TOs (which are rare) make a change from RAW because RAW itself isn't perfect.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/06/23 16:45:01


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

pretre wrote:
And here's where partial quoting makes debates difficult. I never said TO stances are RAW. I said TO stances are important because TOs will often decide based on the evidence.

In this case, the evidence is that GW updated the rules by removing sections. Intentionally or not.


Indeed. However, if RaW the only way to handle the omission of the allies section is to assume they meant to kill off allies, how do we cope with the removal of the FoC section? We must assume with equal good-natured enthusiasm that they removed it intentionally.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser






solkan wrote:The PDF's aren't *just* scans, for two reasons:
1. The page numbers are different (in many languages).
2. You can actually select the text in Acrobat.



Really? That's great. I'm tired of having to manually drag text out of all of these PDF's I find lying around Scribd.


If only ZUN!bar were here... 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

daedalus wrote:
pretre wrote:
And here's where partial quoting makes debates difficult. I never said TO stances are RAW. I said TO stances are important because TOs will often decide based on the evidence.

In this case, the evidence is that GW updated the rules by removing sections. Intentionally or not.


Indeed. However, if RaW the only way to handle the omission of the allies section is to assume they meant to kill off allies, how do we cope with the removal of the FoC section? We must assume with equal good-natured enthusiasm that they removed it intentionally.


I give up. Yes, the removal of allies and FOC means that GH are now unplayable. Yay! Oh wait, I mean, the updates to codexes mean nothing. Yay!

I'm done with WH/DH threads for a while. Watching trainwrecks is only so much fun for so long.


Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

That's because they AREN'T updates.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

pretre wrote:

I give up. Yes, the removal of allies and FOC means that GH are now unplayable. Yay! Oh wait, I mean, the updates to codexes mean nothing. Yay!

I'm done with WH/DH threads for a while. Watching trainwrecks is only so much fun for so long.



Hey, sorry man, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that you have to look at it equally. Can't argue intention on one missing page, and then quite literally the next page argue RAW.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Having been bored enough to try downloading the various language versions around 5:00 before going to sleep:
1. French version is renumbered, and HAS the missing two pages.
2. Spanish version has the old page numbers, and is missing the two pages.
3. English, German and Italian versions have renumbered pages are are missing the two pages.
4. There is no Japanese version.

I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow, since today's GW news says that they'll talk more about today's "great" release.
   
Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos







Expecting consistency from GW is a recipe for disappointment.

Working on someting you'll either love or hate. Hopefully to be revealed by November.
Play the games that make you happy. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Balance wrote:Expecting consistency from GW is a recipe for disappointment.


At least across coutry borders, yes. Just play according to your country's rulings and ask TOs in advance on how they're running it.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




bhsman wrote:
Balance wrote:Expecting consistency from GW is a recipe for disappointment.


At least across coutry borders, yes. Just play according to your country's rulings and ask TOs in advance on how they're running it.


Do other miniature games have this problem with people not knowing if their army is even legal until some guy running a tournament arbitrarily rules in their favor?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I wouldn't know, I just play 40k.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Whorelando, FL

Agreed.



daedalus wrote:Something else I thought about; this isn't really even an actual publication. I can't find an ISBN anywhere for it. The copyright info is still identical too.

Until someone says on GW's site that the omission of Allies was intentional, but the FoC was not, I can't take it seriously.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





San Francisco

Remember when Codex: Demonhunters was first published, and suddenly people weren't sure whether Codex: Assassins was still legal?

Apparently Games Workshop doesn't.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Zut alors! Looks like I can still use mystics/tarots with the French version

Probably a misprint that'll get fixed tomorrow
   
Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos







bhsman wrote:
Balance wrote:Expecting consistency from GW is a recipe for disappointment.


At least across coutry borders, yes. Just play according to your country's rulings and ask TOs in advance on how they're running it.


I meant in a more general sense, that they tend to reverse decisions a lot. Look at the whole 'Specialist Games' thing, Black Gobbo, their podcasts, etc.

Working on someting you'll either love or hate. Hopefully to be revealed by November.
Play the games that make you happy. 
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian




Florida, USA

To add to some of this silliness: I still have the PDF for Lord Commander Solar Macharius released by GW on their website. Can I use him in my IG army? It has the same weight as these releases by GW.

There is a fine line between genius and insanity and I colored it in with crayon. 
   
Made in es
Martial Arts SAS





Pamplona, Spain

The Spanish WH version is exactly the same than the printed version. Just the rules, no fluff, but the present pages are the same than in the book. The haven't even corrected the errata. The Heavy Bolters do still have the stats line of a Stormbolter (R24 S4 AP5 Assault 2)


 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Overland Park, KS

The covered up the inducted allies rules in the new pdf.

Page 20 & 21, yea those pictures at the bottom are NOT in the original codex.

Not that I induct (lol, yea I ally, the rules that have totally vanished), but is there an FAQ for inducting now? or are we just supposed to look at the 'Ard Boyz FAQ or something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/23 19:49:19


   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

daedalus-templarius wrote:The covered up the inducted allies rules in the new pdf.

Page 20 & 21, yea those pictures at the bottom are NOT in the original codex.

Not that I induct (lol, yea I ally, the rules that have totally vanished), but is there an FAQ for inducting now? or are we just supposed to look at the 'Ard Boyz FAQ or something?


God, wouldn't that be awesome. I'd love to pack Vets in with DH.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Overland Park, KS

daedalus wrote:
daedalus-templarius wrote:The covered up the inducted allies rules in the new pdf.

Page 20 & 21, yea those pictures at the bottom are NOT in the original codex.

Not that I induct (lol, yea I ally, the rules that have totally vanished), but is there an FAQ for inducting now? or are we just supposed to look at the 'Ard Boyz FAQ or something?


God, wouldn't that be awesome. I'd love to pack Vets in with DH.


That's exactly what I was doing before I switched to just allying in terminators to my SM/BA forces.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Las Vegas, NV, USA

Okay, so what makes either of these PDFs "massive"?

"This thread is made of so much unrefined awesome spice, the Harkonnens are coming." -Frazzled

"After all, the Space Marines need something to fight against, and it can't always be Chaos!" -Phil Kelly  
   
Made in ca
Boosting Space Marine Biker







Alright, here's a thought: GW looked down from their mountain of gold and saw that all was not right. Some 50%-60% of armies in the 'Ard Boyz (less or more depending on the local scene) we're IG and about half of those were leafblower-esque monstrosities. I'd wager that closer to 70% of the IG lists held allies, not for power per se but simply as a way of abusing old rules with a fantastically powered new codex.

GW saw this, then freaked the hell out. The rushed through making PDF codices of not one, but both 'inquisition' books contrary to the large number of rumors pointing to a PDF release next year for WH and a proper book for GK. End result: they nuked the allies rules and totally thrashed a good number of other rules too. Different regions (presumably with different teams working on this) got different versions.

And so we stand here today, looking at the pieces of two old books and wondering what the hell the future holds in store for both of them. Hey, on the bright side this might mean that Necrons got the Q1 2011 slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: to prank some more on the topic of the missing FoC...

Given that there are no slots to fill (giggity giggity giggity goo, awlright), wouldn't that mean that you just don't get to field anything? No soup for you, inquisition. No soup for you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/23 20:33:12


Riddle me this: what has four sides, moves twelve inches, and moved fourteen?

RAW-RAW-RAWsputin, Lover of the Russian Queen/ there was a cat who really was gone... 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






I love that they took out allies/inducted troops and then left this on page 2:

A Daemonhunters army can also call upon a
vast array of allies and inducted troops. From lethal, acrobatic
Death Cultists, to mighty Dreadnoughts, to the unpredictable and
unnatural Daemonhosts, the army list presents an entire
spectrum of the Imperial war machine. If you’re looking for an
elite force that is so diverse that you will never exhaust the
possibilities offered by the army list, then this is the book for you.

Another strength of the Daemonhunters army list is the ease with
which it can be integrated with existing armies. If you already
have an Imperial army such as the Space Marines or Imperial
Guard, it can easily be incorporated into the Daemonhunters list.
For instance, a Space Marine player may choose to lead his force
into battle with a Grey Knight Grand Master and his Terminator
bodyguard, or an Imperial Guard player may choose to add a
couple of platoons of infantry to his Daemonhunters force.

Conversely, we also include rules that allow the opponents of the
Daemonhunters to take packs of Daemons in their force, and
even one of the fearsome and infamous Greater Daemons of
Chaos. After all, it is perfectly possible that a Dark Eldar Archon
or Imperial Guard Colonel has turned to the worship of Chaos
and has been rewarded with daemonic servants; precisely the
reason the Daemonhunters are fighting them in the first place!



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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Sure, there's no slots to fill, but by the section concerning the FoC in the BRB, every Codex has a FoC in it, so if this one doesn't, then by the rules, it's not a codex, and the old printed one still applies.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in ca
Boosting Space Marine Biker







Or it's a codex that you can't field units from. A decorative codex. A wall flower codex. A sign from GW that its the Speehs Way or the Highway :p

Riddle me this: what has four sides, moves twelve inches, and moved fourteen?

RAW-RAW-RAWsputin, Lover of the Russian Queen/ there was a cat who really was gone... 
   
 
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