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Melissia wrote:Actually, the only reason they even made the book Daemonhunters rather than Grey Knights in the first place was to advertise for their Inquisitor specialist game (which failed).

Who cares what the motivation was? It was cool and unique and it worked. But, as has clearly been the way of 40k, GW is taking all the "minor" armies and stuff out of the game, leaving us with a poorer product as a result. Kroot, Lost and the Damned, Doctrines, Customizable chapters, Craftworlds, Clans, and now Inquisitors.

And Inquisitor didn't "fail" because it was about the Inquisition, it was the scale change.

krusnikk wrote:i know its a step towards standard marines but, gk bikers
bike mounet storm bolter as opposed to tl bolters and NFWs (or optional NFWs for justicars
this would be good in my opinion as it would be easier to fluff than jetpacks light transport for the under teched Gks
also if we go on fluff we know that GK chaplains exist from the GK novel
librarian i wouldnt like as all GKs are meant to be psychic
ooooh and the bikers NFWs should be lances like my Brothe captains

Why use bikes when Grey Knights have literal mastery over teleportation and Deep Striking. That's like opting for rollerskates when you have access to a BMW.

Melissia wrote:Actually, the only reason they even made the book Daemonhunters rather than Grey Knights in the first place was to advertise for their Inquisitor specialist game (which failed).

Man you are like a broken record.

Yes, much like a history book-- no matter how many times you read it, it still says the same thing (and it's usually right).

That's not to say I think Inquisition should just be removed entirely from the game, rather, I just wouldn't care if they were. The ideal situation would to have them have their own codex/supplement instead, but you know how GW is when it comes to finding solutions.

I'm just hoping that the GKs integrate "Allied" SMs and IG into the list, similar to ISTs.

More to the point, I'm hoping that ISTs don't get the IG ST rules and costs.

So you'd rather GW build Grey Knights as an incomplete army that has to rely on other armies in order to function properly?

bhsman wrote:

Why use bikes when Grey Knights have literal mastery over teleportation and Deep Striking. That's like opting for rollerskates when you have access to a BMW.

in essence gks cant always teleport staight in, read the fluff , including any of the novels,
your argument fails in my eyes as thats the same as saying 'why take rhinos when there are land raiders' or 'why take jetpacks when there are thunderhawks#

its a good way for a force on the ground to scout or cover more ground grey knights often have to hunt for the infestation.

i like the idea of GKs on bikes plus they are KNIGHTS!!! Knights need thier steeds

The Power Cosmic wrote:And Inquisitor didn't "fail" because it was about the Inquisition, it was the scale change.

I never said why it failed. Only that it did.

Personally I prefer the Dark Heresy roleplaying game over Inquisitor at any rate.

Melissia wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:And Inquisitor didn't "fail" because it was about the Inquisition, it was the scale change.

I never said why it failed. Only that it did.

Personally I prefer the Dark Heresy roleplaying game over Inquisitor at any rate.

I know, but there is no love lost between you and the Inquisition, you're just biased against them.

Inquisitor was a pretty good game. It's been so long between it and Dark Heresy that the two don't really have anything to do with each other. Inquisitor wasn't trying to be a full role-playing game. But whatever, that's not what we're talking about here.

Basically I lament the loss of the Inquisition and you don't. That makes you wrong.

but on every army list forum i see all i see is endless 'pure GK' or GK plus an inquisitor' have only seen one inquisiton force and thatdidnt seem strong at all
plus remember no-one is ever wrong they are just nowhere near as right as you are

krusnikk wrote:but on every army list forum i see all i see is endless 'pure GK' or GK plus an inquisitor' have only seen one inquisiton force and thatdidnt seem strong at all
plus remember no-one is ever wrong they are just nowhere near as right as you are

Well, that's another issue, mainly the reliance on the internets to tell you what kind of army to play. Also, not every armylist has to be tooled up to win. If I want to play an Inquisition force with only couple Grey Knights and maybe lose 90% of my games, so what? We're not all tournament players (thank the Emperor).

Melissia wrote:Yes, much like a history book-- no matter how many times you read it, it still says the same thing (and it's usually right).

Good thing your posts are more akin to an editorial column.

krusnikk wrote:in essence gks cant always teleport staight in, read the fluff , including any of the novels,
your argument fails in my eyes as thats the same as saying 'why take rhinos when there are land raiders' or 'why take jetpacks when there are thunderhawks#

its a good way for a force on the ground to scout or cover more ground grey knights often have to hunt for the infestation.

i like the idea of GKs on bikes plus they are KNIGHTS!!! Knights need thier steeds

Eh, I just feel like that's they're main thing when it comes to deployment, and they can do it better than anyone. When they fought on Armageddon, or when they showed up on the chapter homeworld of the Scythes of the Emperor to take then-aspirant Stern with them, they're always described as showing up (or leaving) in a storm of light. Rather than have them move across the field on bikes, they could simply give them a Gate-like power for mobility.

Melissia wrote:So you'd rather GW build Grey Knights as an incomplete army that has to rely on other armies in order to function properly?

In short? Yes.

I think Grey Knights are as "complete" as they should be, and that more Inq stuff should be loaded into the book to make up the balance.

I don't think that expansion of the GK line is warranted when their book should be Inq (Heroes & ISTs) + GK/DW + Inducted IG/SMs.

Of course, this is coming from more of a 2E viewpoint...

I honestly think allies should be removed completely from both DH and WH codexes. It's too easy to abuse now that every other codex they can work with is far superior to them.

Oh, no doubt Allies will be removed.

But I fully expect:

Troops

Inducted Guardsmen = 50 pts
1 Sergeant + 9 Guardsmen
+ may take 1 Heavy & 1 Special
+ may take Chimera
may not be taken if Inducted Marines are taken

Inducted Marines = 190 pts
1 Sergeant + 9 Marines
+ may take 1 Heavy & 1 Special
+ may take Rhino or Razorback
may not be taken if Inducted Guardsmen are taken

Heavy

Leman Russ
may only be taken if Inducted Guardsmen are taken

Making "Inducted" units integral to the Inquisition list removes any possible abuse, and keeps their rules clean without any dependence upon other Codices.

This also usefully expands the Inquistion Codex with lots of unit entries for very little effort, merely the sort of cut-and-paste-and-tweak that GW is famous for.

Best of all, once this is done, Inquisition won't need another update for the next decade or so.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But I fully expect:
[snip]

And why do you expect it? What have you heard to support this, if anything? The only person who has been saying something like this is you... no official sources, not even "official" sources like managers and etc.

Remember, want != expect.

Making inducted units available in the codex itself takes up space that should be used by units that are actually unique to the codex instead of copy/pasted units from another codex that will eventually become outdated anyway.

Melissia wrote:So you'd rather GW build Grey Knights as an incomplete army that has to rely on other armies in order to function properly?

No, I'd rather GW build GKs as a full army with a book that can build full non-GK armies, too. Why does it have to be one or the other, why can't we have a book with 30+ entries that can be built in more than just one way?

But then, why would I want anyone's armies to be invalidated?

That sounds fine and all, but guardsmen wouldn't be much in units of 10 for a single troops choice

I think that's a fine idea, but being able to take an entire infantry platoon worth of troops would be better.
They don't even need to be called guardsmen either. Or be part of a different codex! Call them "Inquisitorial Troopers" and make them part of the codex, instead of allies.

Even the Space Marines could be called something like "Inquisitorial Astartes" and have a similar posisition.

Melissia wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But I fully expect:
[snip]

And why do you expect it?

Making inducted units available in the codex itself takes up space that should be used by units that are actually unique to the codex instead of copy/pasted units from another codex that will eventually become outdated anyway.

Because GW has already done this in the Inquisition books. Where did ISTs come from in the first place? Go check. They were a copy-paste from the IG Codex. How about Assassins? Codex: Assassins. And the Transports? Codex: SM. So copy-pasting some version of Guardsmen and Marines seems perfectly obvious, given that this book should be nothing more than HotI + Assassins + Allies warmed over again.

Why do Grey Knights need Assault Grey Knights and Grey Knight Bikers and Grey Knight Scouts? So they can finish flushing the GK Fluff down the toilet? Maybe the Grey Knight Dreadnought can be armed with a "Knight Fist". Oooh... so unique. And a total waste of time and effort. Copy-paste enough IG and SM stuff to complement the ISTs and the Codex will do just fine, because it'll have enough variety to stand for the decade it'll need for the next revision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:That sounds fine and all, but guardsmen wouldn't be much in units of 10 for a single troops choice

They don't even need to be called guardsmen either. Or be part of a different codex! Call them "Inquisitorial Troopers" and make them part of the codex, instead of allies.

Even the Space Marines could be called something like "Inquisitorial Astartes" and have a similar posisition.

OK, then maybe GW takes a page from the CSM book and treats Guardsmen like Lesser Daemons - a Troops that doesn't take a FOC slot...

That is exactly what I said: "Inducted Guardsmen" are part of the Codex (just like ISTs), not Allies from C: IG.

Yes, exactly what I suggested. "Inducted Marines" are part of the Inq Codex (like ISTs), not Allies from C: SM.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Why do Grey Knights need Assault Grey Knights and Grey Knight Bikers and Grey Knight Scouts? So they can finish flushing the GK Fluff down the toilet? Maybe the Grey Knight Dreadnought can be armed with a "Knight Fist". Oooh... so unique. And a total waste of time and effort. Copy-paste enough IG and SM stuff to complement the ISTs and the Codex will do just fine, because it'll have enough variety to stand for the decade it'll need for the next revision.

I don't see how Assault Grey Knights is "flushing GK Fluff down the toilet". They were in Rogue Trader.

@Plat: are you proposing a return the RT-era RoC: StD list and fluff in which most GKs have no psychic ability at all, and look just like regular SMs?

I'm OK with that.

Of course, that would bring things back full circle, to when my SMs were non-Psyker GKs...

DD vs Melissia - this is an argument that, if left alone, could literally go on until one of them dies from old age.

I say we sit back and watch.



Anyway, I'm with DD on this one (yeah, I know - who'd thunk that?). Grey Knights are complete as is - their squads work, their fluff works, the limited unit choices makes sense, no Vanila Marine choices are shoe-horned into them to make more model, and if you want to play them as a whole army, you can (not a very good army, but then again a pure Inquisitorial army isn't very good either and I still play them).

They don't need Assault Marines and Bikers and everything else DD mentioned. "Knight Fist" - classic!

I also agree that adding actual Guard and Marine units as Codex entries could be something that happens... maybe not the Marines, but the Guard. But it is wishful thinking on DD's part to assume that IST's won't be turned into the craptastic Guard Stormies (assuming they're even in the Codex to begin with).

bhsman wrote:Man you are like a broken record.

I prefer a CD stuck on repeat.

I prefer thinking of her arguments like infomercials when you can't find the remote.

Also, I really really really want to see something fantastic done with Grey Knight Terminators. I'm liking this "Paladin" thing that's been rumored though...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Anyway, I'm with DD on this one (yeah, I know - who'd thunk that?).

Whoah. Is it 2012 already? Has the seventh seal been broken? The world as I know it is ending.

I see it as:
Terminators, GK's, GK's with jump packs:
GK's with some sort of mount for fast attack:
Enforcer troops-like a private police force (stormtrooper quality:
Assassins:
Mutants, (beastmen?) Daemonhosts, Inquisitors, Preachers, ect:
Militia frateris:
And some sort of huge vehicle:
Some of this is a wish list, but it would bring back some of the popular pieces from the past. (remember they are bringing back the IA pre-heresy stuff).

All those would kinda go against the notion of the codex being focused on Grey Knights.

Melissia wrote:Actually, the only reason they even made the book Daemonhunters rather than Grey Knights in the first place was to advertise for their Inquisitor specialist game (which failed).

The reason why it happen wasn't an attempt at a tie-in but the result of Inquisitor being internally popular at GW. GW actually had to keep the Game Designers from making it a true tie-in, by disallowing character cross overs between the two properties.


I think most people are over estimating what would be necessary for filling out the Grey Knight codex. A number of appropriate units already exist and their suitability eliminates the need for explanation... storm raven and dreadnought variants come to mind. Next you can add basic staples such alternate HQ's like Chaplain or Librarians, in some form, even if not by those names or functions. That's 4 or 5 new yet appropriate units. At the same time they don't substantially distort the character of the Grey Knights. All GK really need beyond that is at least one more fast attack choice.

I'll be pretty surprised if inducted troops (and Daemonhosts) make it into the Grey Knight codex. Cut and Paste IG Stormtroopers, maybe but don't expect to see them as Troops choices, they'll probably be fast attack with a mandatory transport (Chimera or Valkyrie). I expect them to loose most of their options with the exception of (Str4) Shotguns (from the WH codex). I think that a 'proper' Grey Knight fast attack choice is possible with different models (maybe, maybe not jump packs) but definitely new different models. There's got to be something in the book for old Grey Knight purists to buy. Inquisitors and their retinues are likely to be a shadow of their former selves. I draw a blank as to how they'll handle Assassins.

Variant Dreadnoughts, Characters, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens seem very likely to me.

aka_mythos wrote:All GK really need beyond that is at least one fast attack choice.

Fixed, at least in the opinion of most GK players I know.

Currently we have without Inquisitors or other.

HQ
-HQ with Command Squad Option
-Special Character with Command Squad Option

Elites
-Terminators

Troops
-Power Armor Grey Knights

Fast Attack
-Power Armor Grey Knights with Teleport

Heavy
-“Devastator” Squad with only 2 types of Weapons available
-Dread
-Land Raiders

If they keep those what fills the gaps

Kung Fu Jim wrote:Mutants, (beastmen?) Daemonhosts,

Militia frateris:

Mutants & Beastmen & Daemonhosts? Not likely, as GW will focus the Inq / GK book back to loyalists. It's one thing for BA to have Raging / non-Raging, but to have clearly Heretical stuff in a mostly anti-Heretical army? Can't really see it.

Frateris Militia belong, just not in this book. Wait for C: Sisters of Battle for the expanded forces of the Ecclesiarchy.

Ugh, I dont want power weapons, I thought the higher WS and 6str close combat weapons were reasonably powerful and unique =(