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But youve already bought it and new players dont know it was 60 or 75

Kids buy the battle forces that are $90+ dollars. The starter set is like buying a battle force with rules.

Cheers

asmith wrote:This will hopefully give people an idea of what it actually costs to make this stuff.

Edit: I think compared to most other things that people buy, which are either very complicated (electronic equipment) or well finished (toys), most people will think paying these prices for what you get (unfinished, unpainted, plastic, without the means to finish them in the box) is well out of line with almost everything else they buy.

Compare it to a good quality model kits from another manufacturer. A decent 1/35 tank is GBP30-45.

I think my point went well over your head...

Meh considering lots of parents drop 300+ dollars for the latest gaming system (with no games mind you) I doubt the 100 dollar starter box will deter that many people.

I think it didn't, your premise was flawed. Comparing two ery different types of product does not serve to highlight anything.

Furthermore, you comment on how cheap these things are to produce, it costs more to make the IoB box set than a basic DVD player, something which is (very complicated). What relevance is the fact that it's complicated if it can be manufactured and sold more cheaply?

Scott-S6 wrote:I think it didn't, your premise was flawed. Comparing two ery different types of product does not serve to highlight anything.

Furthermore, you comment on how cheap these things are to produce, it costs more to make the IoB box set than a basic DVD player, something which is (very complicated). What relevance is the fact that it's complicated if it can be manufactured and sold more cheaply?

Maybe, depends on the production methodology. As far as materials, small amounts of precious metals go into circuitboards and other sundry internals in electronic equipment. The last time I looked, my little plastic soldiers weren't made of aluminum, gold, silver, etc..AND a great deal of plastic which are all much more expensive than just the small amount of plastic that goes into my box of toys.

A variety of raw materials are used in the construction of DVD players and disks. Glass is used to make the laser and other diodes in the system. The primary components on the circuit board are made from silicon. Aluminum metal is used for the housing as well as a hard plastic. The base material of the disks is plastic. They are additionally coated with a silver colored layer and a thin gold layer. The surface of the disk is further coated with a hard layer of lacquer to protect it from damage.

Read more: How dvd player is made - material, production process, history, used, processing, parts, components, structure, product, industry, machine, History, Design, Raw Materials http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/DVD-Player.html#ixzz0wKEmp08S


Why can I walk into a WalMart and buy a DVD player for $25 when a box of army men costs $50? I get your point but it was not even close to a good comparison. It would be easier just to admit that prices are inflated because the company is able to do so due to the particular market and their share of said market. A great deal has been said about how archaic even such a basic process as stock management is at GW, their manufacturing process is probably even more silly. From a business standpoint, they would be much better off just outsourcing to China or India like even small miniatures companies do (wargames factory). People may argue that such miniatures are not as detailed, etc; however, it doesn't matter how complicated something is to create (iPhones are manufactured in China), the labor is so much cheaper as well as the overall operating costs associated with production.

Come to think of it, I bet you could commision some outstanding Chinese sculptors to make your figs and just move all pre and post production to mainland China.

*here's where I rub my hands together with an evil laugh*

Scott-S6 wrote:I think it didn't, your premise was flawed. Comparing two ery different types of product does not serve to highlight anything.

Furthermore, you comment on how cheap these things are to produce, it costs more to make the IoB box set than a basic DVD player, something which is (very complicated). What relevance is the fact that it's complicated if it can be manufactured and sold more cheaply?

Here you've proven you missed the point. the IoB box set should not cost more to produce than a basic DVD player. the fact that the DVD player can be got for cheaper just illustrates even more how overpriced the GW box is. A basic DVD player has all the design aspects that a IoB box has (many injection molded parts, glossy box) plus many more components made by other processes, exotic materials etc, and it is assembled and hopefully tested. Even people who are not engineers or into manufacturing can see that one thing is a lot harder to make than the other.

Well its like I said, they are like the American car manufactures back in the 70's. Turning out product for a captive audience so they got lazy. Now instead of raising prices they just made crap cars. But its all due to lack of serious competition and buyer complacency.

The reason you can get a DVD player for $25 is that there is so much competition, (plus you are probably buying a crap DVD player). Competition forces companies to streamline, make production more efficient, and liquidate unnecessary departments. Competition is the only real motivating factor for a company to change its practices.

A $25 dollar DVD is probably crap. But if you get a year out of it then great. That's a year of DVD for 25 dollars its still worth it, it might last you years. On the same note you can buy cheaper miniatures if you want also. There are many good quality miniatures for far less than GW charges. Hell you could use green army men if you wanted to. (yes yes yes, not at tournaments. I know, which brings up my next point).

That is a great point though. I understand wanting people to play with painted miniatures. But I have never understood why an independent tournament would require GW miniatures. As long as they are easily identifiable, what do you care? Unless GW is sponsoring or providing the prizes the have F@@@ all to do with it. Seriously, there is no room in the 40K universe for my Warzone, bauhus, imperial guard.....they look sweet they fit the codex even the command squads are Cadian Imperial supervisors. They were far better than the Guard that GW was producing at the time.

It's crazy the Fanboyism of some people. GW can get you to be their enforcer without any benefit to you. All the have to do is raise prices and not give a cent back to anybody for anything. Its crap. Hey why don't we just give GW the monopoly.

I think I may have just seen the owner of GW

@Andrew

GW provides almost all the prize support for stores that take the tiny bit of time it takes to talk to them. For GT's it's generally around 1,100-1,300 in prize support with another couple hundred in terrain support. So no Indy GT is going to allow non-GW armies (a model here and there they don't have a problem with). RTT also get around $140ish from GW again if you spend a tiny bit of time talking to them and your a store that orders their product. So unless those non-GW companies are going to fork over prize support store owners want to make money on their tournaments so they won't allow non GW armies.

*Edit* The above is US based. I don't know how they support tournaments in other countries.

You're just as much a debby downer on GW as some people are fan boys. Best part is you don't seem to know what your talking about (especially in regards to gouging). We get it, your angry. But no one is forcing you to buy GW. No one is forcing you to play GW. Go play WM/Hordes (almost the same cost) or historicals or something else. Harping on a company that you don't support is kinda pointless. Even if they read this crap they wouldn't listen to you since your not a customer.

They are just way overpriced, all the new plastic stuff coming out should be cheaper but its not. It's not fair to the hobbyists. All GW care about is sales

Hulksmash wrote:@Andrew

GW provides almost all the prize support for stores that take the tiny bit of time it takes to talk to them. For GT's it's generally around 1,100-1,300 in prize support with another couple hundred in terrain support. So no Indy GT is going to allow non-GW armies (a model here and there they don't have a problem with). RTT also get around $140ish from GW again if you spend a tiny bit of time talking to them and your a store that orders their product. So unless those non-GW companies are going to fork over prize support store owners want to make money on their tournaments so they won't allow non GW armies.

You're just as much a debby downer on GW as some people are fan boys. Best part is you don't seem to know what your talking about (especially in regards to gouging). We get it, your angry. But no one is forcing you to buy GW. No one is forcing you to play GW. Go play WM/Hordes (almost the same cost) or historicals or something else. Harping on a company that you don't support is kinda pointless. Even if they read this crap they wouldn't listen to you since your not a customer.

Some good points in there, but one that's not so good: GW should potentially listen to him because he COULD be a customer. If they only listen to current customers, they are less likely to expand their sales.
And in Ireland at least, GW doesn't do a lot for independant tournaments. Well, the staffers are enthusiastic friendly guys, and they'll help out, but the company doesn't do much for the tournament scene. So it depends on where you go. (Ireland is probably a pretty small market to be fair- small population, low population density.)
I think GW makes the best plastics in the business, but they are outside my price range. I don't think commenting about it is a bad thing, or that you have any right to tell me or others to stop.

aka_mythos wrote:A simple definition for price gouging is to raise price through monopolistic practices above their market value.

What? Raising above market value? Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay.

In the case of a monopoly, the monopolizer DETERMINES market value, which is why it's not possible to "gouge" based on your definition.

Da Boss wrote:I don't understand why people get so aggressive and derisive when someone says that they think something isn't good value for money.

Because that's not what's happening. The OP wasn't simply stating "this hobby is expensive", it was someone moaning and whining about how they can't afford their favorite toy. People get bothered by this once they're old enough to have had to actually sacrifice things for what they want (like time, money, and in my case for 40k, time, money, and blood), rather than throwing a tantrum when they don't get what they want.

Yeah, it's not "fair" that GW raised prices.... get over yourselves.

Da Boss wrote:I don't think commenting about it is a bad thing, or that you have any right to tell me or others to stop.

Maybe not in Ireland, but in the US we actually do have a right to tell you to stop. (Not to make you stop, just to be able to tell you to.)

Just as anyone has a right to moan about something, and keep on moaning about it after asked to stop.)

Otherwise the interwebs would grind to a halt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And back to the original topic:

Veterans moaning about the price being to high has nothing to do with getting new people into the hobby.

Day it comes out I'll be putting some of those high elfs on a hook, and casting them out into the mall to reel in a few new customers and sell them a set.

I don't even have to throw back the small ones I catch!

If I do my job right, they have fun and start into a new hobby, I make money, and the parents get the cheapest babysitting they've ever heard of, every saturday at my shop. Win/Win/Win

Put the set together today. Very, very nice models. Makes me want to do something un-natural, like paint High Elfs.

Euzebeau wrote:They are just way overpriced, all the new plastic stuff coming out should be cheaper but its not. It's not fair to the hobbyists. All GW care about is sales

They're a fething business, of course they care about sales.

I'm quite happy to pay $90 for AoBR (not that I did, seriously go find a discount retailer), my gf needed basic tactical marines, the dreadnought was great, basic terminators are awesome, and it gives her a change to play around with Orks. What's not to like? Sure, the extra options from the proper boxes are good and all, but there is a place for base line units, and it sucks having to make basic troops when you have all these pretty options that you'll never use.

GW provides almost all the prize support for stores that take the tiny bit of time it takes to talk to them. For GT's it's generally around 1,100-1,300 in prize support with another couple hundred in terrain support. So no Indy GT is going to allow non-GW armies (a model here and there they don't have a problem with). RTT also get around $140ish from GW again if you spend a tiny bit of time talking to them and your a store that orders their product. So unless those non-GW companies are going to fork over prize support store owners want to make money on their tournaments so they won't allow non GW armies.

*Edit* The above is US based. I don't know how they support tournaments in other countries.

You're just as much a debby downer on GW as some people are fan boys. Best part is you don't seem to know what your talking about (especially in regards to gouging). We get it, your angry. But no one is forcing you to buy GW. No one is forcing you to play GW. Go play WM/Hordes (almost the same cost) or historicals or something else. Harping on a company that you don't support is kinda pointless. Even if they read this crap they wouldn't listen to you since your not a customer.

That is the sound of another Fanboy earning his wings

But see Hulksmash, I was a customer, a great customer.

Lets see
40k : 2 companies of spacemarines, landraiders, rhinos, Eldar army, Imperial Guard army, Chaos marine army
Warhammer : Dark Elves, Empire, Skaven,
Blood bowl, dungeon bowl,: Dark elf team, dwarf team, elf team, human team, skaven team, orc team,
Space marine, space marine 2nd ed, titan legions,: space marines army, chaos army, Imperial guard army, 2 full titan legions (one chaos, one loyalist) each with 4 warhounds, 3 reavers, 3 warlords and an imperator, and a knight titans army
Advanced hero quest, advanced space crusade, space hulk with all the modules
Necromunda. Don't remeber which gang, I used my tallarens.
Dark future, Whiteline Fever
I even have some of those stupid troll games, not to mention chainsaw warrior and block mania.
If it was put out by GW I owned it or played it at some point.

And you know what I bought all that while I was in high school and college. Not even at my peak of earning potential. Yeah it was good times. You could get a good army for $100 instead of $1000.

So yeah I was a good customer. So were all my friends. We played all the time. Hell we still play, but we are not buying anything new....it's too expensive. I love my old minis, but the new terminators are better than my old ones, stern guard are cool, My dark elves are so old they are all armed with hand weapons, dark elf warriors cant even have hand weapons anymore! There are a lot of miniatures my friends and I would buy if they were not way overpriced. My god if they would put out a new epic scale that was more like 2nd ed with all the new vehicles and units!!!!!!! But they would probably want $5 a piece for epic scale plastic razorback.

There are a ton of old gamers that would buy stuff, but GW has priced a most reasonable adults out of the market. And guess what GW we have kids. If you think vets wont buy the stuff for themselves......they are not going to buy it for their kids. Now that the hobby has gone from cheap entertainment to apparently a plastic crack addiction you will never see my kids buy a single product from GW. Maybe used on ebay, or a competitors stuff.

GW policy seams to be that new people buy more stuff so screw the vets. But every business knows it is cheaper to keep your old clients than get new ones. We may not buy as much stuff as the new guys right away, but we buy so much more over the long haul.

So don't tell me what to play and how to play it Fanboytastic Hluksmash. At least I have reason to be a Debbie Downer (which I really only am on GW pricing practices). What's your excuse for the bowing down to the Alter of GW? You know the more you support them the more they will just keep raising the price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm quite happy to pay $90 for AoBR (not that I did, seriously go find a discount retailer),

Contradict yourself much? Were you happier paying $60 a couple years ago. I'm sure if someone offered it to you for $30 you wouldn't buy it?

The second you say you are happy and ok with the prices, GW knows they can raise them.

Let's face it. If the IoB box sold for 60$ then everyone would be playing Skaven or High Elves for months to come. The only people that would buy it would be players already playing the game, seeking to bolster their current armies or start new ones. At 99$ it's a terrific deal given the current price of figures*. It's essentially 2 95$ battalion boxes worth of figs plus rules, dice, etc... Entry into the hobby for two players for "less than 100$." So for the truly new player, it's really 50$, provided they can find a friend to split and enjoy it with. A steal, really.

*Arguing the overall price of the hobby in general is a completely different discussion that I'd rather not get into. There are two sides to that fight, neither interested in having their opinions changed.

It's essentially 2 95$ battalion boxes worth of figs . . . .

I don't know why the figs in IoB are being compared to their counterparts that are boxed separately. If they had put the 'regular' minis into this set rather than less-pieces-as-possible starter minis, then I could see the heftier tag. Would you shell out $95 for either army in the IoB on its own?

Let's face it. If the IoB box sold for 60$ then everyone would be playing Skaven or High Elves for months to come. The only people that would buy it would be players already playing the game, seeking to bolster their current armies or start new ones. At 99$ it's a terrific deal given the current price of figures*. It's essentially 2 95$ battalion boxes worth of figs plus rules, dice, etc... Entry into the hobby for two players for "less than 100$." So for the truly new player, it's really 50$, provided they can find a friend to split and enjoy it with. A steal, really

.

Lets face what? By this logic a $50,000 2 bedroom house should really be $100,000. I could just find a roommate and we could both enjoy the pride of home ownership. And car companies should price cars so that people have to car pool. It's nonsense.

Besides there is only one rule book in the box.

You know what, this wouldn't be so bad if the stock was flying. But its not, so obviously they are doing something wrong. The customers are paying for that mismanagement. You can't throw money at problems. If you can't make money at $2 a miniature you can't make it at $4 or $6 if the management is lacking or your business model is flawed.

I actually think the minis in the new box are great, as good or better than even the old metal ones. I don't mind single pose with variety, look at the multi pose dark elf warriors CRAPTASTIC. Ill keep my old maurader regiments thank you. Do you really need super individual models in a packed unit? I don't need to be able to see the time on a marines wrist watch either.

Andrew1975 wrote:

I'm quite happy to pay $90 for AoBR (not that I did, seriously go find a discount retailer),

Contradict yourself much? Were you happier paying $60 a couple years ago. I'm sure if someone offered it to you for $30 you wouldn't buy it?

The second you say you are happy and ok with the prices, GW knows they can raise them.

Not a contradiction, I'd be willing to pay $90 for it, but I'd be stupid if I would pay that much if I can get it for less. I honestly would be willing to pay more for it, because I know the units in it are just that good.

And what is it with gamers not understanding that GW is, first and foremost, a business? Do you think they're a charity, or maybe a non-profit? I personally love how the only thing people in this thread are looking at is material cost. I work in a factory, we care a lot more than about the material cost. Let's see, there's the equipment, the labor, the packaging, the shipping (even just from factory to warehouse), oh, and quality control (which is what I'm personally in). There's also the cost of development (good modelers and painters cost money) and administrative costs. There's the bandwidth for their website. The customer support phonelines also cost money. Oh, and the lawyers. I'm sure I'm forgetting other costs, but those boxes of plastic have to pay for it.

yes but I've covered that, If GW was able to cover all these costs years ago at $1-2 for metal and $.75 for plastic minis when sale were low. Surely they can cover it now at $3-4 for metal and $1.5-$2 for plastic when sales have skyrocketed and still make a hefty profit. That is a 100% increase on a plastic product with little labor involved in the production process. The fact that they are so above and beyond this...its laughable. And during a global recession no less. When the economy recovers just think of what they will believe they can get away with.

All companies have administration costs, you know what GW doesn't have. Assembly and paint departments, like most toy companies do. That GI Joe guy, believe it or not was just a piece of plastic on a sprue, there is still a lot of hand labor in those assembly processes. That $25 DVD player, has all those admin costs, even higher material costs. I'm no engineer but to design a DVD player from start to finish is probably more complex and costly than designing a few sprues of minis ...I could be wrong there.

Unfortunately I can not find a good product to compare them to. So lets take gi joes. Much more labor intensive in the production. In 20 years they have gone from $3 to $6. They are a bit bigger and are more detailed and articulate than the ones I used to buy as a kid. So 100% increase, I accept this as labor prices have skyrocketed in 20 years. Material costs have gone up for both products (plastic). There is comparatively little labor in GW products. So a 600% price increase in 20 years gets under my skin.

The production of most anything from a gi joe to a dvd player is ridiculous. So many bits and pieces

Production at GW

GW. step1 melt plastic beads, step2 inject in mold, step3 cool and eject sprue. Step 4 see step 1

Oh yeah they don't have any real competition yet, so they can charge what they want. (que mantic)

I guess I just miss when they were a small fun company, putting out things like Chaos toilets, and throwing in bags of goodies when you ordered stuff. You know it was nice not feeling like I was getting taken for a ride when I bought something. Now it just insults me.

I have a hard time believing that the assembly is done by hand, not when I work at a fething factory. The only thing done by hand here is stacking the pallets (except when the robot is doing it), otherwise it's people making sure the machinery doesn't make mistakes. And it really does sound like you're mad at a company for being a company and wanting to make a profit.

Andrew1975 wrote:

I guess I just miss when they were a small fun company, putting out things like Chaos toilets, and throwing in bags of goodies when you ordered stuff. You know it was nice not feeling like I was getting taken for a ride when I bought something. Now it just insults me.

Rose colored glasses? A small fun company with not enough customers - where do you think all the models they produce now come from? Previous the stuff was totally undercosted and we were getting bargins - the fact that prices have risen and people keep buying prove that. I think the price rise should have stopped around $30 per unit box (16+ models etc for fantasy) but @ $30 it seemed an OK price.

Back then the models were crap in comparison. They really were - you put some of the old metals from 15-20years again against some of the plastics of today and no-one can argue it isn't better.

Anyway - you're not being taken for a ride coz you're not buying.

fullheadofhair wrote:
A small fun company with not enough customers - where do you think all the models they produce now come from?

China, mostly

Anyway - you're not being taken for a ride coz you're not buying.

My point exactly.

A small fun company with not enough customers

Not sure where you get that. As far as I know they only started having money issues once they got bigger and started charging more. I pretty sure they were doing just fine back in the day. They had plenty of tournaments, ran games days, sold lots of miniatures and they had about 10 pretty well known games and many smaller ones. Now they have 1 game 40K, the last few editions of fantasy did not go very well for them.

Look i'm not trying to say lets have 30 marines for 18 bucks, But 10 marines for $20 isn't so bad, but 10 for $40 is insanity.

@Andrew

Your a very angry man about something you don't collect anymore. Also I'd like to disagree about a good army being $100. I've been buying since second edition and no army has ever cost me $100. If your talking rogue trader then maybe but that was before my time. I'm not a fanboy. Just a realist. I myself rarely purchase products from GW unless they are a) amazing and b) something my army can use to make it better. And even then my hobby is normally paid for by others (commission or tournament winnings). But I don't complain about the price because guess what? It's not something I'm willing to get worked up about. If they price me then they price me out. I'm a grown-up. I can decide when something isn't worth it to me. And I don't internet rage at people because of the price of a hobby no one is making me purchase.

I also like how you completely slide slid most of my post and simply focused on one small part. Kudos to you my friend. Enjoy your rage.

I can't stop laughing at the people saying a kid would go for a handful of plastic for $100 instead of two just released video games! Now we know who the real addicts are .

As a kid which would you pick?

Games-Workshop:
Island of Blood - $99

Alternative:
Halo 3 - $20
Gears of War 2 - $20
Left 4 Dead - $20
Bioshock - $20
Dead Rising - $20

Or go buy them pre-owned and throw in 2-3 more games. True they are older games, but the prices drop quickly shortly after the big release.

Model for model it's not a terrible deal, until you consider that the ENTIRE boxed set is chock full of the least popular troop choices in WHFB. I've never, ever put a High Elf on a griffon. Swordmasters suck in 8th ed. Poison Wind mortars aren't the best things in the world. What the hell are you going to do with 2 rat ogres? Ellyrian Reavers are borderline useless.
I don't see how these things are going to sell to veterans, and the new players who come in, if they do, will do so because some GW rep took them for a ride in explaining what a good deal the starter box was. They'll soon realize that while they might have $300 worth of miniatures, it's really $300 worth of garbage.
The only exception: the clanrats.

Don't be such a drama queen, ten Sea Guard will win you every game! At least that is what the employee told me (while making overly dramatic sound effects).

Because they can shoot AND they have spears!!!